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twietee

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Jan 24, 2012
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Yes, a resounding 1-0 victory against a team that can't even afford a box of grass seed...

548WNRR.jpg

to be fair: those pitches heavily work in favor of the underdog and not the team that is technically (way) superior. In general. If Mou wants his technically way superior team to play like a bunch of playground bullies that's on him.
 

Scepticalscribe

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Jul 29, 2008
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to be fair: those pitches heavily work in favor of the underdog and not the team that is technically (way) superior. In general. If Mou wants his technically way superior team to play like a bunch of playground bullies that's on him.

But that is part of the issue, isn't it?

He wins ugly; he is the sort of man who enjoys humiliating teams and managers he defeats and positively revels in bullying those who work under him. (And yes, I am not just talking about footballers, but the Dr Eva Carniero case).

The contrast with Claudio Ranieri especially last season - with his style based on gentle, supportive, teasing man-management - taking his players out for pizza, cheering them and encouraging them and counselling them - while protecting them from stress - or from implosion - is very striking.
 
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twietee

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I don't want to defend Mourinho, who imho went mad during his time at Real, but his over the top "special one" narrative does serve a purpose: the media mostly focuses on him instead of the players - so you can say he does protect them by doing so. If he's ultimately only pandering his enormous ego or not doesn't really matter in that regard.

But as a manager (like players too) you can ultimately only fail at some point. There are incredible little examples where a manger and a club parted in a fine and respectful way. Ranieri for example reached the ultimate top last season - impossible to top or even remotely to repeat (say: staying in the top5). As unfair as it sounds: as soon as he held the title in his hands and didn't step down his clock was ticking already.

And each approach (be it gentle, straight up analytical, brute force or whatever) does have an inherent deadline - so as unfair as it seems, it looks like Ranieri didn't reach the players this season like the last one. You can blame that entirely on the players, but playing the devils advocate here: you can also blame it on Ranieri who couldn't or wouldn't adapt. And it'll always be the manager to take the hat first since you just cannot fire and hire that many players at once.

But I only remotely follow English fooball nowadays so take those specific examples definitely with a grain of salt.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
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I don't want to defend Mourinho, who imho went mad during his time at Real, but his over the top "special one" narrative does serve a purpose: the media mostly focuses on him instead of the players - so you can say he does protect them by doing so. If he's ultimately only pandering his enormous ego or not doesn't really matter in that regard.

But as a manager (like players too) you can ultimately only fail at some point. There are incredible little examples where a manger and a club parted in a fine and respectful way. Ranieri for example reached the ultimate top last season - impossible to top or even remotely to repeat (say: staying in the top5). As unfair as it sounds: as soon as he held the title in his hands and didn't step down his clock was ticking already.

And each approach (be it gentle, straight up analytical, brute force or whatever) does have an inherent deadline - so as unfair as it seems, it looks like Ranieri didn't reach the players this season like the last one. You can blame that entirely on the players, but playing the devils advocate here: you can also blame it on Ranieri who couldn't or wouldn't adapt. And it'll always be the manager to take the hat first since you just cannot fire and hire that many players at once.

But I only remotely follow English fooball nowadays so take those specific examples definitely with a grain of salt.

Very good and thoughtful post, and - broadly speaking - I agree with you.

When I defend Mr Ranieri, it is not just the voice of emotion - it is also the voice of reason, the sort of reason that thinks it not unreasonable to treat people well in the hope that they will perform well. Or, perhaps, it is simply the part of me that applauds the presence of some older, admirable values - but that I like to see people who are decent and dignified treated with the respect that they have almost invariably tendered to others.

Re Mr Mourinho, maybe it is just that I don't like the man, and what he stands for.

Nor do I like his attitudes, bullying behaviour, values, or petty vindictiveness (Eden Hazard was targeted, and not just because he is an excellent player, but also - I suspect - because Mr Mourinho seems to allow himself to indulge in that little vein of petty vindictive viciousness that lies deep in his nature), nastiness, the pleasure he takes at the defeat - preferably the humiliating defeat - of those who oppose him or challenge him.
 

twietee

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Jan 24, 2012
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Re Mr Mourinho, maybe it is just that I don't like the man, and what he stands for.

haha, I think that is a statement we all can agree very easily on.

Mind you, I don't dislike a non-attacking / defensive thinking team just because. On the contrary, I am always quite fond of the "Italian" way of playing extremely tactical, efficient, balanced and intelligent (while quite deceiving). It is interesting to see one of those all-out-attacking teams trying to overcome such a masterful defense without falling into the trap. But that has nothing to do with bullying or being overly aggressive up to a point where one thinks why legal actions cannot be taken after certain actions on the pitch.

As long as the amount of teams operating that way is rather limited (and their quality top notch) I have no problem with them. The days of the 90s where almost no goals where scored due extremely defensive play are long over.
 

Lord Blackadder

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May 7, 2004
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I don't want to defend Mourinho, who imho went mad during his time at Real, but his over the top "special one" narrative does serve a purpose: the media mostly focuses on him instead of the players - so you can say he does protect them by doing so. If he's ultimately only pandering his enormous ego or not doesn't really matter in that regard.

But as a manager (like players too) you can ultimately only fail at some point. There are incredible little examples where a manger and a club parted in a fine and respectful way. Ranieri for example reached the ultimate top last season - impossible to top or even remotely to repeat (say: staying in the top5). As unfair as it sounds: as soon as he held the title in his hands and didn't step down his clock was ticking already.

And each approach (be it gentle, straight up analytical, brute force or whatever) does have an inherent deadline - so as unfair as it seems, it looks like Ranieri didn't reach the players this season like the last one. You can blame that entirely on the players, but playing the devils advocate here: you can also blame it on Ranieri who couldn't or wouldn't adapt. And it'll always be the manager to take the hat first since you just cannot fire and hire that many players at once.

But I only remotely follow English fooball nowadays so take those specific examples definitely with a grain of salt.

I agree with you twietee, though I would also argue that what irks me goes beyond the behavior or fortunes of Ranieri vs Mourinho.

It really boils down to the fact that Mourinho is in some ways a perfect modern manager - short-termist, results-oriented, able to manipulate the media and the brainless masses who never read deeper than headlines or tickers. The way he accomplishes these things always produces destruction in the long term - because as far as I can tell he is an appalling human being - but that is not something that owners, boards, the football associations, TV people and the majority of fans are (collectively) interested in. They want to make money NOW, or win something NOW, or have a narrative NOW, and Mourinho offers that.

Some ex-players speak of him with almost religious reverence - but those players (like Lampard & Drogba) also happen to be world-class talents who fit with his player model and never let him down on the pitch. It's easy to maintain a good relationship when you do what you're told and deliver on it unquestioningly for years. Ask Hazard or Casillas what Mou is like, on the other hand...

Maybe Ranieri did lose the dressing room. Maybe his tactics were becoming a bit of a muddle. Maybe they were headed for relegation under him. But he also won them a league title, something no Leicester manager will do again in my lifetime - and you can take that to the bank (barring, of course, the expenditure by their ownership of Man City levels of cash). No matter what they do, it's all downhill from here for Leicester. To suggest anything else would be delusional. So the best they can hope for by firing him is a few more seasons of trophyless toil in the premier league, the extra income from which will be piddled away speculatively on third-tier playing talent and siphoned off by the owners. The fans won't see a dime of it - in fact they'll probably be charged more for the privilege of watching the post-Ranieri decline. Then it's back to the Championship (or below) anyway.

The takeaway from this is that, in football management, no amount of success will buy you security at a club - except to the extent that it helps you pick up your next job after being fired. Likewise, long-termism is always frowned upon by ownership, FAs, the public, and especially TV people whenever it rears its reasonable head. Until, that is, clubs face a winding-up.
 

Lord Blackadder

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There will be the usual bleating for Arsene's head, but in reality I can never blame anyone for falling victim to Pulis's cut-rate English Mourinho-ball. With that being said, Arsenal are currently doing a fair impression of Sweden's national squad - one great forward and 10 other guys.

EDIT: not much else of note happening today, apart from Leicester managing to bring their CL momentum back to the league, beating West Ham 3-2.
 
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Alphazoid

macrumors 65816
Dec 5, 2014
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Players aren't playing for Wenger anymore.

Speaking of Wenger he says he's made his decision which probably means he's leaving.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Original poster
Feb 21, 2012
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There will be the usual bleating for Arsene's head, but in reality I can never blame anyone for falling victim to Pulis's cut-rate English Mourinho-ball. With that being said, Arsenal are currently doing a fair impression of Sweden's national squad - one great forward and 10 other guys.

EDIT: not much else of note happening today, apart from Leicester managing to bring their CL momentum back to the league, beating West Ham 3-2.
Yes thanks for pointing that out!
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
May 7, 2004
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Yes thanks for pointing that out!

Sounded like a pretty exciting match, even though your boys were on the wrong end of the final scoreline.

I just got a chance to watch the entirety of the Leicester-Sevilla second leg, and my goodness, but Vardy is a nasty little so-and-so. Very dirty player, despite his obvious talents. If he weren't English people would hate him the way they hate Costa and Suarez.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
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Not surprised. The losers wasting good money on airborne "Wenger Out" banners don't deserve him.

Agreed. Not remotely classy.

He deserves far better than such graceless treatment.

Sounded like a pretty exciting match, even though your boys were on the wrong end of the final scoreline.

I just got a chance to watch the entirely of the Leicester-Sevilla second leg, and my goodness, but Vardy is a nasty little so-and-so. Very dirty player, despite his obvious talents. If he weren't English people would hate him the way they hate Costa and Suarez.

Today's Guardian had a most elegant sentence which observed that Leicester's results since they defenestrated Mr Ranieri "silenced all those jibes about a dressing room full of treacherous snakes" but agreed; Vardy is the footballing equivalent of an alley cat with the same pitiless predator's instincts.
 
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Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
May 7, 2004
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Today's Guardian had a most elegant sentence which observed that Leicester's results since they defenestrated Mr Ranieri "silenced all those jibes about a dressing room full of treacherous snakes" but agreed; Vardy is the footballing equivalent of an alley cat with the same pitiless predator's instincts.

I just hope all the people who worked themselves into a state of high dudgeon over Suarez's dive against PSG were similarly shocked and appalled by Vardy's reaction to Nasri's "headbutt". Honestly, the only thing that will ever shock me about footballers and headbutts will be to see one administered properly. (Which is not to say I encourage it)
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
May 7, 2004
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So, USA 6-0 Honduras. Clint Dempsey with a hat trick, Pulisic was a star and we simply overran a Honduras side that usually prove to be tough opponents.

I'll be frank - I'm not excited about Bruce Arena. He's a competent coach, especially in CONCACAF, but I don't think he has what it takes to beat good teams at the World Cup. He'll get us qualified, but after that, meh.
 
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balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
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New England
I'll be frank - I'm not excited about Bruce Arena. He's a competent coach, especially in CONCACAF, but I don't think he has what it takes to beat good teams at the World Cup. He'll get us qualified, but after that, meh.
Agreed 100%. They won't be beautiful games be we will grind it out to get out of the hex. What US Soccer does after that remains to be seen.

I also like to have some support for my own preferences. :) I personally default to 4-(1-2-1)-2 with my youth teams for what seems like the same reasons as Bruce Arena does.

It lets you give the players a crystal clear mission and that helps both you and them adapt to playing out of your natural position or with players they don't usually play with.

B
 

pachyderm

macrumors G4
Jan 12, 2008
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So, USA 6-0 Honduras. Clint Dempsey with a hat trick, Pulisic was a star and we simply overran a Honduras side that usually prove to be tough opponents.

I'll be frank - I'm not excited about Bruce Arena. He's a competent coach, especially in CONCACAF, but I don't think he has what it takes to beat good teams at the World Cup. He'll get us qualified, but after that, meh.

Agreed.
 

Fizzoid

macrumors 68020
Jul 11, 2008
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I'll be frank - I'm not excited about Bruce Arena. He's a competent coach, especially in CONCACAF, but I don't think he has what it takes to beat good teams at the World Cup. He'll get us qualified, but after that, meh.

Sounds like excellent credentials to be the next England manager, perhaps?
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
May 7, 2004
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Sounds like excellent credentials to be the next England manager, perhaps?

Arena doesn't have the reputation in the UK or experience of the culture there, but in truth I believe his raw managerial capability in the England job would match that of Hodgson or Allardyce, and probably Southgate too. He's conventional, solid and not charismatic.

The USA qualification situation is very different from that of England, because CONCACAF play has a unique style. we play more MLS-heavy squads in qualifying and use different tactics Then the World Cup arrives and everything changes - the squads, the tactics, the style of the opponents. And, sadly, the results.

Re: England...another one of those qualifying wins that tells us nothing about how they'll do in the tournament. Defoe is a skilled poacher, but the fact he is playing in competitive internationals highlights England's lack of depth in the forward position. Defoe is not a tournament-winning quality player at this stage. Nor, for that matter, is Vardy.
 
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