The 2023-2024 Football Thread

[Scepticalscribe]

West Ham played to their strengths.

Very much so.

But they have been coached to recognise their strengths and play accordingly.

I couldn't understand why Moyes received such criticism; sure, he isn't a stylish sexy cosmopolitan moderniser as a manager, but, last season, with a fairly weak hand, he delivered impressive results.

JWP looks like a real bargain at £30 million. Fitting in well with our style of play.

Absolutely.

An excellent buy, and a terrific player.

I also think that Harry Maguire should have taken - should have leapt at - he opportunity to join West Ham.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Funny three of the top four all sold their best player this summer. Yet they’ve all started strongly.
I think we are still somewhat on a high from our European cup win.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Very much so.

But they have been coached to recognise their strengths and play accordingly.

I couldn't understand why Moyes received such criticism; sure, he isn't a stylish sexy cosmopolitan moderniser as a manager, but, last season, with a fairly weak hand, he delivered impressive results.

Absolutely.

An excellent buy, and a terrific player.

I also think that Harry Maguire should have taken - should havev leapt at - he opportunity to join West Ham.

Indeed. His loss is Utd’s benches gain.

 

[Sal09]

Football hurts.

 

[laptech]

Indeed. His loss is Utd’s benches gain.

Put Moyes in a understrength weakened club and he will do wonders. Look at what he did at Everton, took a meandering midtable team to the highs of the PL getting them into Europe. He goes to West Ham and wins a European trophy with them. Moyes is an extremely good manager.

 

[pachyderm]

the massive off to Cardiff for more disappointment..

And we lost.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Put Moyes in a understrength weakened club and he will do wonders. Look at what he did at Everton, took a meandering midtable team to the highs of the PL getting them into Europe. He goes to West Ham and wins a European trophy with them. Moyes is an extremely good manager.

Indeed. I’m glad he’s started well. I think they’d be looking to replace him already if we had Everton’s start.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Sheffield United holding Manchester City to nil all; and wonderful to relate, Haaland missed a penalty, which didn't stop him from demanding several more.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Sheffield United holding Manchester City to nil all; and wonderful to relate, Haaland missed a penalty, which didn't stop him from demanding several more.

1 up now though. Looks like they’ll be knocking us off top spot again.

Also McGuire to West Ham might be back on?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

1 up now though. Looks like they’ll be knocking us off top spot again.

Depressingly predictable.

And I had hoped that Sheffield United might take a point from Manchester City.

Actually - and this is entirely irrespective of whatever position Arsenal are in, or end up in, - I will enthusiastically support any (and every) team that looks like taking a point (or, preferably, three) from Manchester City.

Also McGuire to West Ham might be back on?

Ah.

Well, well.

If so, I think this could work out well both for West Ham and for Maguire.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Brilliant: Sheffield United have equalised.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Nothing to see here folks. Sheffield United were game but they might as well have stayed home today, for all the difference it made.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Nothing to see here folks. Sheffield United were game but they might as well have stayed home today, for all the difference it made.

Yes, it was fun while it lasted, which wasn't very long, alas.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Yes, it was fun while it lasted, which wasn't very long, alas.

In reality it was even less of a contest than the scoreline would suggest - Man City had 80% possession and missed a penalty. It was a win anyway but most days it would have been an even more dominant / boring performance.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

In reality it was even less of a contest than the scoreline would suggest - Man City had 80% possession and missed a penalty. It was a win anyway but most days it would have been an even more dominant / boring performance.

Not just boring, but a tactical dominance that becomes suffocating, really, it is a form of boa constrictor football.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Celtic fans are already ‘restless’ after one draw in the SPL. What a crazy reality Celtic fans live in terms of expectations. Anything less than a dominant league-winning campaign is unacceptable. Losing any domestic match is unacceptable. Even drawing a match is unacceptable.

It would be like watching Man City vs Luton Town 38 weeks running or whatever. No thanks.

 

[Apple fanboy]

In reality it was even less of a contest than the scoreline would suggest - Man City had 80% possession and missed a penalty. It was a win anyway but most days it would have been an even more dominant / boring performance.

Possession doesn’t always reveal the whole picture though. Depends on what game plan Sheffield came with.

I recall Klopp moaning last year how negative some teams played at Anfield.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Possession doesn’t always reveal the whole picture though. Depends on what game plan Sheffield came with.
View attachment 2251369
I recall Klopp moaning last year how negative some teams played at Anfield.

There is possession,and then, there is the nature of that possession, whether it is endless, pretty, passing triangles - (yes, Arsenal, I'm looking at you), or whether it is the sort of press that takes the form of a slow, suffocating strangulation, - interspersed with swift, endless, lethal attacks - (and a team of the sort of quality that can do that for 90 minutes), a tactic that allows the opponent neither space nor time to recover, let alone mount an attack themselves.

Now, this is not taking away West Ham's achievement in devising - and implementing - a successful game plan.

I do not understand - well, I do, he is criticised because he is not young, stylish, sexy, fashionable, modern - the condemnation and occasional contempt with which Moyes is sometimes regarded by media and football commentators alike; yes, he is an old school British manager, but he is one, who - as @laptech has earlier pointed out - tends to do exceedingly well with understrength and weakened clubs, clubs sometimes threatened with relegation - delivers consistently, sometimes almost entirely against the odds.

By way of contrast, @Lord Blackadder has commented on a number of occasions of how, while Pep has achieved much, it is only in the context of exceptionally well resourced teams, which has allowed for the purchase of not just quality players, but extremely good (and expensive) players, and in sufficient number to have the sort of strength in depth whereby other teams can only cast glances of longing envy at the bench - let alone the team - that Manchester City are able to name, week after week.

 

[Apple fanboy]

There is possession,and then, there is the nature of that possession, whether it is endless, pretty, passing triangles - (yes, Arsenal, I'm looking at you), or whether it is the sort of press that takes the form of a slow, suffocating strangulation, - interspersed with swift, endless, lethal attacks - (and a team of the sort of quality that can do that for 90 minutes), a tactic that allows the opponent neither space nor time to recover, let alone mount an attack themselves.

Now, this is not taking away West Ham's achievement in devising - and implementing - a successful game plan.

I do not understand - well, I do, he is criticised because he is not young, stylish, sexy, fashionable, modern - the condemnation and occasional contempt with which Moyes is sometimes regarded by media and football commentators alike; yes, he is an old school British manager, but he is one, who - as @laptech has earlier pointed out - tends to do exceedingly well with understrength and weakened clubs, clubs sometimes threatened with relegation - delivers consistently, sometimes almost entirely against the odds.

By way of contrast, @Lord Blackadder has commented on a number of occasions of how, while Pep has achieved much, it is only in the context of exceptionally well resourced teams, which has allowed for the purchase of not just quality players, but extremely good (and expensive) players, and in sufficient number to have the sort of strength in depth whereby other teams can only cast glances of longing envy at the bench - let alone the team - that Manchester City are able to name, week after week.

It is true Pep has had resources that other managers can only dream of, but I do think he’s done a remarkable job of keeping his team playing well. Many managers have had unlimited resources (thinking about a certain ‘special one!’), who have failed to make a good team from millions.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

It is true Pep has had resources that other managers can only dream of, but I do think he’s done a remarkable job of keeping his team playing well.

True.

Many managers have had unlimited resources (thinking about a certain ‘special one!’), who have failed to make a good team from millions.

Yes, agreed, this is very true.

While you make a good point - a very good point - about being able to craft an excellent team, in fact several excellent teams in succession - Manchester City now are a rather different team from Manchester City in 2017 - and, more to the point, being able to sustain those standards - with bottomless resources - and how others in somewhat similar positions have failed to do so, sometimes spectacularly, (yes, the "special one" comes to mind), and I think that Pep is - for the most part - an excellent tactician, there is another test, which Moyes passes with flying colours, which is achieving some sort of success against the odds, with a weakened team and limited resources.

If memory serves, @Lord Blackadder has made the point that Pep had never - and has never - been tested in an environment where he didn't have vast resources to call upon.

In any case, I'd like to see how Pep would have managed as head coach with a struggling club, one where survival in the PL was the annual goal, one where budgets had to be balanced, where revenue was finite, one where you had one or two excellent players, rather than a team and subs-bench boasting such quality, one whose best players - having been developed and nurtured by the club - were endlessly poached by bigger, stronger, more successful and wealthier clubs (rather than simply being able to head out with a shopping list for footballers, secure in the conviction that he would be able to afford to buy almost everything he wanted; now, granted, he is good at identifying what he needs - not every manager with bottomless resources seems able to do that - but, he can afford to buy what he needs when he needs it): I'm not so sure that this was a challenge that he would have been able to meet.

 

[Apple fanboy]

True.



Yes, agreed, this is very true.

While you make a good point - a very good point - about being able to craft an excellent team, in fact several excellent teams in succession - Manchester City now are a rather different team from Manchester City in 2017 - and, more to the point, being able to sustain those standards - with bottomless resources - and how others in somewhat similar positions have failed to do so, sometimes spectacularly, (yes, the "special one" comes to mind), and I think that Pep is - for the most part - an excellent tactician, there is another test, which Moyes passes with flying colours, which is achieving some sort of success against the odds, with a weakened team and limited resources.

If memory serves, @Lord Blackadder has made the point that Pep had never - and has never - been tested in an environment where he didn't have vast resources to call upon.

In any case, I'd like to see how Pep would have managed as head coach with a struggling club, one where survival in the PL was the annual goal, one where budgets had to be balanced, where revenue was finite, one where you had one or two excellent players, rather than a team and subs-bench boasting such quality, one whose best players - having been developed and nurtured by the club - were endlessly poached by bigger, stronger, more successful and wealthier clubs (rather than simply being able to head out with a shopping list for footballers, secure in the conviction that he would be able to afford to buy almost everything he wanted; now, granted, he is good at identifying what he needs - not every manager with bottomless resources seems able to do that - but, he can afford to buy what he needs when he needs it): I'm not so sure that this was a challenge that he would have been able to meet.

Many managers with a vast budget seem to just go out and buy good players with little thought to what system they have planned or how they will compliment their existing team.
A good manager not only gels a good team together, but thinks about how the style of play may need to change against different opponents. Not all managers can do that.
Hopefully Moyes can have a successful year at West Ham. Another trophy would be great. But not flirting with relegation (and I never thought we were that in danger last year) would be a good thing.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Many managers with a vast budget seem to just go out and buy good players with little thought to what system they have planned or how they will compliment their existing team.

This is all too true, and - at times - can be almost hilarious to observe.

A good manager not only gels a good team together,

Very true, and that is a gift.

However, it is far, far easier - even when one has the gift of being able to craft a team, or gel a team, or put a team together (like a jigsaw puzzle, or mosaic) - so that the sum of the whole far exceeds the individual parts and works coherently as a collective unit with a clear vision of what it is they wish to achieve on the football pitch - to do this with ample resources.

but thinks about how the style of play may need to change against different opponents. Not all managers can do that.

Another very good point; a team designed to deal with a certain set of circumstances may flail and flounder in another.

Not only being able to change a team - or create or craft a specific team - to deal with different opponents, but also knowing when - and who to substitute - as circumstances change on the ground during a game is also a very valuable skill, in other words, being able to adapt intelligently to circumstances as the situation demands or calls for it, is also a very valuable skill.

While Pep can do all of this (and exceptionally well, most of the time), he has never been tested in circumstances where he didn't have not just ample, but awesome, resources.

However, I wonder if he could bring those skills to bear if the team he managed was considerably less well resourced.

Hopefully Moyes can have a successful year at West Ham. Another trophy would be great. But not flirting with relegation (and I never thought we were that in danger last year) would be a good thing.

I think that Moyes did very well - with limited enough resources (not just in terms of financial resources, but in terms of the players available) last season.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Another week, another Liverpool red card. We seem to genuinely play better when down a man. 🙄

A very solid result away against Newcastle though, and perhaps the best news is that Darwin Nunez is scoring goals, as the jury is still a bit out on him. Maybe this season sees him click up a gear finally.

It is true Pep has had resources that other managers can only dream of, but I do think he’s done a remarkable job of keeping his team playing well. Many managers have had unlimited resources (thinking about a certain ‘special one!’), who have failed to make a good team from millions.

I don’t think you’ll ever hear a serious argument that Pep Guardiola is NOT an elite manager.

But the fact that he has only ever worked with the very best talent and virtually unlimited money makes direct comparisons to other managers difficult. And I am sure it masks some of his weaknesses. We’ll never know how he would perform with more typical resources. Conversely, there are very good managers out there who will never get a chance to build a cost-no-object team so we’ll never know what their true ceiling is.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

An excellent victory for ten man Liverpool against Newcastle.

However, van Dijk's behaviour (and language) to the referee when dismissed from the game having received a red card leave a lot to be desired.

High emotions are one thing, but showing threatening behaviour, intimidating body language and using offensive actual language to a match official are inexcusable - and I have long liked van Dijk, although I suspect that he is not quite the player he was, and his frustration at that may account for his inexcusable outbreak of unseemly ill-temper.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Another week, another Liverpool red card. We seem to genuinely play better when down a man. 🙄

A very solid result away against Newcastle though, and perhaps the best news is that Darwin Nunez is scoring goals, as the jury is still a bit out on him. Maybe this season sees him click up a gear finally.


I don’t think you’ll ever hear a serious argument that Pep Guardiola is NOT an elite manager.

But the fact that he has only ever worked with the very best talent and virtually unlimited money makes direct comparisons to other managers difficult. And I am sure it masks some of his weaknesses. We’ll never know how he would perform with more typical resources. Conversely, there are very good managers out there who will never get a chance to build a cost-no-object team so we’ll never know what their true ceiling is.

I’ve not seen the game, but I read you were lucky not to be down to 9 men.
I’ll catch the highlights later.
But of course suspended players is the last thing you need.