Burnley could have (and possibly, should have) taken three points from this game.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
The 2023-2024 Football Thread
- Thread starter Scepticalscribe
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
It’s those dropped points that really mess with your head at the business end of the season.
More bust ups going on in the United dressing room with ETH reported to have got involved to stop it. We don't read news articles of this going on at Liverpool or Man City or Arsenal. Does such a thing go on in those clubs but is not considered news worthy or is it only going on in United?
Firstly, to their owners, Manchester United are a brand, not a team; success on the field, while welcome, is really optional, as, in their eyes, the team is simply a platform - a platform that they have gutted to some extent, following best practice for a successful business practicing rapacious capitalism - to drive global profits.
Secondly, Manchester United are staggering under the freighted weight of their history, both glorious and tragic - for that includes Munich - and the entitled expectations of their (domestic) fans, or supporters, (which are delusional, entitled, and, at times, preposterous), as many fans of the club remember the successes of the Ferguson years and have come to expect more of the same, as a matter of entitlement.
Notwithstanding that, not only are they no longer the best club in England; they aren't even the best club in Manchester any longer.
However, given that United are now a global business, or brand, with global appeal (on a level of no other club in the Premiership), the "fans" - or supporters - now come in two versions; the (loud, discontented,) domestic ones, and the international variety, who see support as fulfilling some sort of sense belonging, but who do not demand success on the football field as a birthright.
From the perspective of profit, the international fans, or supporters, (who are - if not happy, are, at least, content to be monetised, i.e. seen solely as a source of profit) are both far more numerous, and a lot less demanding (of the club, of performances, or the owners), than the domestic fans, who will see their role reduced to providing background "local colour".
Moreover, the crushing weight of the past, and the expectations of (domestic) fans - some of whom think that success is a right - must have an effect on some of the players.
Thirdly, and this is key, the team (in marked, and striking contrast with other teams, such as Liverpool, or their fellow Manchester team, Manchester City, or Brighton, or West Ham, or Arsenal, among others) is a collection of gifted and not so gifted individuals, who do not play as a unit, as a team.
Fourthly, while the legendary Sir Alex - who was running on empty as far as the team were concerned for his final year or two in charge - while considered the template (especially by fans) of what a United manager should be, - is a creature out of time; this is not how a modern manager can expect to run a club, especially a club with outsize ambitions, these days.
In any case, these days, United's ambition exceeds their ability as a team, notwithstanding the fact that some of their individual players - and they have spent a great deal of money - are very gifted footballers.
It is interesting in the way your post is worded because a lot of what you wrote can be applied to Liverpool, their dominance in the 70's and there subsequence decline from that dominance. Gifted players overs the years, expectations of the fans to return the club back to it's glorious years. It echo's so much of what is happening at United. Their dominance gone, same level of gifted players, same expectations from the fans. Now they are struggling to find themselves again.
An interesting read about the upcoming Nations league games featuring the Spanish women's team. They have refused a call up to play and are doing so until there are changes within the heart of the RFEF who if anyone remembers initially very strongly backed Luis Rubiales but then very quickly did a u-turn when they realized how much bad PR the RFEF was getting.
article about RFEF backing Luis
www.90min.com
I can see where the women are coming from though. When Jenni Hermoso spoke out and said the kiss was unwanted instead of taking the matter seriously and therefore looking into safe guarding women footballers, the RFEF backed the man (Rubiales) and disbelieved the woman (Hermoso) and thus went out of their way to discredit Hermoso. This would have been done at the bequest of the RFEF which shows there are elements within the RFEF hierarchy that do not have the best interests of the female footballers at heart.
The way it appeared to play out to me (and maybe others saw it that way too) is that the RFEF said 'don't worry Luis, we back you 100%, we will destroy Jenni in the media'. When that attempt backfired with the RFEF doing a u-turn and forcing Luis to resign and issuing an apology for how they initially behaved, it's as though the RFEF are now trying to say, 'Hey Jenni, all is good, the manage has gone, Luis has gone, we've apologized, all is good now, yes?' and expecting Jenni to accept it. Hell no and I hope the Spanish women continue their stance on this.
article about RFEF backing Luis
Spanish football federation calls for own UEFA suspension to save Luis Rubiales
The Spanish Football Federation (RFEF) tried to go nuclear in a desperate attempt to save president Luis Rubiales, who has been suspended by FIFA for 90 days.
I can see where the women are coming from though. When Jenni Hermoso spoke out and said the kiss was unwanted instead of taking the matter seriously and therefore looking into safe guarding women footballers, the RFEF backed the man (Rubiales) and disbelieved the woman (Hermoso) and thus went out of their way to discredit Hermoso. This would have been done at the bequest of the RFEF which shows there are elements within the RFEF hierarchy that do not have the best interests of the female footballers at heart.
The way it appeared to play out to me (and maybe others saw it that way too) is that the RFEF said 'don't worry Luis, we back you 100%, we will destroy Jenni in the media'. When that attempt backfired with the RFEF doing a u-turn and forcing Luis to resign and issuing an apology for how they initially behaved, it's as though the RFEF are now trying to say, 'Hey Jenni, all is good, the manage has gone, Luis has gone, we've apologized, all is good now, yes?' and expecting Jenni to accept it. Hell no and I hope the Spanish women continue their stance on this.
One can wonder what goes on in Spain for real.
Communication seems very off. But some of them have arrived here.
We are known for our open-mindness, so let’s see what else comes to surface while they are here?
x.com
Communication seems very off. But some of them have arrived here.
We are known for our open-mindness, so let’s see what else comes to surface while they are here?
Jenn1 Hermos0 (@Jennihermoso) on X
Comunicado en relación a los últimos acontecimientos del día de hoy // Official Statement regarding today's latest events #SeAcabó
Last edited:
Who has arrived where? because the Spanish players have not only refused to train but refused to play.One can wonder what goes on in Spain for real.
Communication seems very off. But some of them have arrived here.
We are know for our open-mindness, so let’s see what else comes to surface while they are here?
Jenn1 Hermos0 (@Jennihermoso) on X
Comunicado en relación a los últimos acontecimientos del día de hoy // Official Statement regarding today's latest events #SeAcabó
View attachment 2268889
Obviously the RFEF are still a mess. No message, no real plan. It's all indicative of an organization that has just flown under the radar and had no scrutiny for decades. When a crisis arrives that is outside their narrow little view of the world, they are helpless to react to it.
They don't know what they are doing.
They don't know what they are doing.
I read a UK article early this morning that stated if the Spanish women continue to refuse to play, according to Spanish law the players can be fined and or sent to prison and the Spanish government said they are going to take things further. I do not know how much truth there was in the article because I can no longer find it as I wanted to link it here for others to see.
It's hugely embarrassing for Spanish football, but the old farts running the RFEF simply don't understand how out of step they are. And most of them probably wouldn't care even if they did. They realize people are angry but probably think they can ride it out, make it go away, or squash it through defiance. And they could prevail in that unless the Spanish women maintain their stand, and are supported by the public and by their government.
I wonder if these kind of instances is what is making other players stand in defiance of their manager? Female players raising their concerns with their federations and not being heard and they only time they are heard is when they speak out publicly. The USA women's team have done it, the England women's team have done it, African female teams have done it, now the Spanish women's team. In one of Sancho's messages he said he has been made to feel like a scapegoat, meaning he has spoken on issues before but got no where but now he's spoken publicly, people are taking notice.
Liverpool's era of dominance also co-incided with the expulsion of English football clubs from European competition for a number of years (as a result of the Heysel stadium disaster in 1985).
The Spanish women's team incident and Jadon Sancho's tussle with ETH are two very separate issues, though they both illustrate how contemporary media influence the culture of the game. During the Rubiales scandal Rubiales himself took the floor and amplified his 'version' of events in a way that ensured that his voice was the loudest. This is culture and politics in the 2020s - volume is equivalent to rhetorical weight apparently. It doesn't matter if you are wrong...if you shout everyone down you can win or at least make taking you down a long, painful process with lots of collateral damage. The women are taking a more dignified approach but they also need to coordinate their responses, while Rubiales just has to shout, shout, and shout some more...and the media gives him a powerful platform to do that.
In the case of Sancho, both the player and manager have decided to take some private friction public. This almost never ends well but is indicative of both a high level of frustration on both sides and Sancho feeling entitled to respond to his employer's criticisms in a very public manner. ETH can't afford to have every player who is annoyed about being dropped chattering on the socials, though, so this is a high stakes game. ETH chose to join Man Utd but I have to sympathize with him at least a little - most of the player crises he's dealing with (and there are a lot of them) are not of his own making. Expectations remain high at the club but the ownership remain a shambles, many players are missing for various reasons, and the matches keep coming. Navigating through this chaos is a huge ask for any manager.
Since Ferguson left (retired), it would appear that every club manager has not had the true full backing of the club owners. When the Glazers took over it took them some time to settle into the club but when they did you could see that transfer decisions and disciplinary decisions that would have have been allowed under the previous ownership was being refused or turned down by the new owners, the Glazers. There is no way Ferguson was ever going to allow that to continue.
I think to quell any issues in the dressing room the owners need to go in and read the riot act to the players, telling them they have full confidence in the manager and if they continue behaving the way they are they will be out the club.
As ex United goalkeeper Ben Foster said on one of his youtube videos, United is no longer a football club in the traditional sense of the word, it is a commercial club and thus how the club functions as a business is more important to the Glazers than how the club performs on the pitch.
Ferguson didn't receive everything he wanted from the Glazers.
During his last few years in charge, the fact that he managed to eke out successes masked the fact that the team were becoming increasingly threadbare.
During his last few years in charge, the fact that he managed to eke out successes masked the fact that the team were becoming increasingly threadbare.
Ferguson was a manager from a different era. A true autocrat, nobody is (or will be) invested with that level of power any more, and when managers like him retire they inevitably leave behind a huge power/personality vacuum. Even the best-run club would struggle to deal with that - and Man Utd are not the best-run club. Modern managers, even the biggest personalities like Guardiola and Klopp, are more super-coaches with a good PR brand than 'managers'. They also work with sporting/football directors who handle bigger-picture stuff.
Also remember that the Glazers inherited Ferguson after he'd become part of the furniture. They barely ever had to make any decisions about Man Utd while he was in the saddle, apart from skimming off the top and (infamously) choosing noodle partner sponsors and whatnot. Once he left, the Glazers and their suits had to start running the football side of the club themselves. And we all know how well that went.
Also remember that the Glazers inherited Ferguson after he'd become part of the furniture. They barely ever had to make any decisions about Man Utd while he was in the saddle, apart from skimming off the top and (infamously) choosing noodle partner sponsors and whatnot. Once he left, the Glazers and their suits had to start running the football side of the club themselves. And we all know how well that went.
Last edited:
As an additional point to the Spanish RFEF affair, it's important to point out that the women's national team players are only reporting to play under threat of fines and professional bans from the RFEF.
The Spanish women are threatening to strike because they claim their concerns are being ignored. The RFEF's response to that is 'shut your mouths and do as you're told - or lose your jobs and be fined.'
The RFEF have learned nothing at all as yet - and they are not listening.
The Spanish women are threatening to strike because they claim their concerns are being ignored. The RFEF's response to that is 'shut your mouths and do as you're told - or lose your jobs and be fined.'
The RFEF have learned nothing at all as yet - and they are not listening.
CEO David Gill left United at the same time Ferguson did. He was arguably an even bigger loss to the club, as his replacement, Ed Woodward, was good at signing noodle sponsors, but awful at football transfers and contract negotiations. United are still dealing with the fallout of Woodward's bad decisions, and will be for some time to come.
I'm sure Man City will end up gobbling up Red Star Belgrade today, but to be fair to Red Star they've held their opponents at bay for an entire half and even gone ahead. It's all set up nicely for the usual Man City 3-1 win. 
No other suprises brewing in the European matches as yet though most of the games are still going.
Meanwhile, Newcastle went to Italy, had a goalless draw with Milan and saw a fan stabbed. A grimly stereotypical Italian away experience....
No other suprises brewing in the European matches as yet though most of the games are still going.
Meanwhile, Newcastle went to Italy, had a goalless draw with Milan and saw a fan stabbed. A grimly stereotypical Italian away experience....
True. I suppose it's fair to wonder how things would have gone had Gill stayed on under Moyes. I suspect the Moyes project would have soured anyway (it was an impossible task) but maybe the squad would have been less...weirdly assembled and thus more successful under subsequent managers.
I read about that in the papers this morning. In the articles it says all those called up to play have arrived at the training ground and reporters at the training ground asked various players are they happy to be here/to be playing and everyone they asked said 'No'. One of the players went further and said she is only here because she is being forced to due to the threat of legal action if she does not.
Will they still go on strike before the game on Friday or will they relent and play and if they do play, will they give it their all or just let the other teams walk all over them and win.
What did he say?
(Attempting to access The Athletic means that you encounter a paywall).