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The Aircraft Thread!
- Thread starter PracticalMac
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I've been on MR for 11 years now. I never realized how informative the "Aircraft" Thread is in here. I'm going to try and pop in here more often instead of hanging out on PPRuNE all the time. Serious enthusiasts in here. Very nice. 
Interjet and CityJet also have SSJs, for example.
This thread was only started last month.
It sounds like NWA Flt 6231 had icing on the pitot tube like Northwest Flight 8 and Air France Flight 447. That's something I've been taught many times don't pull the power. That's what happened with Colgon Air Flight 3407 where the Captain pulled back the power.
You don't here a lot about friction between the NWA and DAL pilots like you do with TWA and AAL and with Continental and United. Speaking of United and our previous conversation about my UPS interview this week I spoke with one of their pilots who is in my current reserve squadron and he's putting in a recommendation for me. Hopefully I hear better things about that life than the cargo pilot life!
I liked the 727 and the DC9. If the DC9 or even the MD95/717 were still in production I think it would sell because of the demand for an aircraft in the 100 seat market. Delta seems to be using their 717 profitably to areas that are too large for an RJ and too small for a 737/A320. I am not a fan of carbon fiber either. What routes did NWA fly the 727 on? Also what did they fly the 747 on domestically?The 727 was an outstanding plane, but the DC9 was too, because it was ahead of it's time with no flight engineer. These planes were built like relative tanks. In comparison, modern fly by wire aircraft have a tough carbon skin, but when the limits are exceeded, you have things like tails coming off, which would not happen to a 727 or a 9 because relatively speaking, as they were a bit over engineered. As an example, a coworker's son was racing a carbon frame bike, and crashed. He said that bike blew apart into pieces. Aluminum does not do that, it bends instead.
I am told that SW was a good place to go. Sadly I never made it there.
I am sorry to hear that! Aviation Risk Management does sound interesting. Did you consult with airlines or potential buyers?
I was an instructor on the C-40 at the squadron level when I first went in the reserves. It isn't as glamorous as it sounds and I did it to log the ME instructor time. If I liked it depends on the day you ask. I liked the people and the places I went and I even liked the C-40 but the C-40 is no F-16. I went to that unit because it was the best vacancy I could find that wasn't on the other side of the country. I flew the C-40 after I left active duty so it was after I was instructing on the T-38. I think the 25th is still at Vance. I did my flight training at Moody during the short time it was there.Did you like the C-40 instructor assignment? I think I read you we’re also at Sheppard in the T-38, yes? Was that prior to the C-40? Did my ENJJPT+SUPT at Vance 79-80 in the T-38 with the 25th.
Comfort for the passengers depends on what the airline orders for seats and pitch. I have flown on the A330 with many airlines and some are comfortable and some aren't.
What I like about the Irkut MC-21 is the active sidestick which provides active feedback like the yoke on Boeing and unlike the sidestick on Airbus. I wonder if auto throttle works like it does on the Boeing 737 where it moves the thrust lever automatically or if it's like the Airbus A320 where it doesn't move.
I look forward to flying in the Irkut MC-21 and hope it sells well.
It is a fun thread.I've been on MR for 11 years now. I never realized how informative the "Aircraft" Thread is in here. I'm going to try and pop in here more often instead of hanging out on PPRuNE all the time. Serious enthusiasts in here. Very nice.
I wonder how long it will go.
Yes, agreed, it is a fun thread, and an interesting and informative one, too.
It'll continue as long as people wish to continue posting in it; the "espresso enthusiasts thread" has lasted years.
Indeed and hopefully it will go on for years. I will check out the espresso enthusiasts thread because I am also a fan of espresso.
RE the luggage discussion my sister is here watching the kids while I am flying with my reserve unit and go to an interview later this week and my wife leaves for Hawaii tomorrow. She brought her Rimowa Classic Cabin 35L and I got a chance to look at it and after years of use from an airline pilot it doesn't look bad. The steel color hides the scratches better than I expected so I expect to get a Rimowa soon since my wife insists on getting me new luggage and a headset.
The espresso thread is now an all purpose coffee lovers thread, but there is a lot of good advice and information about all coffees, including espresso.
Re Rimowa, I think that the steel colour is probably more practical than the black, although the latter is damned stylish; however, that looks to be a stunning small suitcase.
That airplane looks soooo beautiful (and it isn't really expensive from what I have found on Google)...
Pilot license...one of the dreams that still hasn't come true for me...
I will check it out thanks!
I like it and it seems to be what I need and if it'll last as long as her's has I will be happy.
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I haven't paid attention to the aisle width but if it's wider than the A320 that's a good thing.
I enjoyed the 55th back then. Great sense of accomplishment from my time there. Was not as political then as now from what I hear from old friends (SCANG with the 169th.) Structure was very tight on base and in theater. Yea, my eye issue was devastating for a while. Really needed to lean on family and friends for a while. I was not going to ride a desk to the 20yr mark. They granted my separation request, and I started a new career. Yes, the 25th is still operational at Vance.
I worked with carriers. In your case I spent some time with B6 at the initial acquisition of the E-190's ( I was not pro acquisition on the E-190, but .......) The aircraft has never come close to the expected Cost and Margin ambitions. I consulted with B6 2005-2007. It was extremely challenging. Especially 2007 after the "Winter Meltdown." You are on the 190, yes? When it entered with B6 the FMC was spending most of it's time rebooting with the aircraft never leaving the gate. I can't comment on it's current dispatch rate, but I'd imagine it's not acceptable. I do like B6 as an airline, although there is no shortage of haters out there. The recent agreement with the ALPL might calm some of it. It's nice to read you enjoy it there. I hope they make it. I see the A223 order as a very risky move. Time will tell. I'm more focused on fishing off my dock, and traveling with my wife of 41 years these days.
Nice chatting with you. I posted earlier as to the fact that I've never really spent time in this thread in my 11 years on MR. The only non Mac thread I'm ever in is the Formula 1 Thread( Rabid Maranello Fan.) Spend most of my time in PPRuNE. Seems like a lot of serious professional aviation enthusiasts in here. I'll have to make it a regular "Top Off" in the future.
You can pass the trolley on the MC-21.
The A320 family is wider than the 737 family
The 737 MAX has tiny toilets.
The A320 family does not have force feedback joysticks but the 737 family is not full FBW.
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I knew people who were with the 55th in the early 2000s after flight training and they liked SW. I wish I made it there but got stuck in Korea and Japan. I didn't want to ride a desk either which is part of why I got out when I did.
I started as a FO on the E-190 before I was able to transfer to the A320. I liked the E-190 and the HUD was a great feature but the trips on the A320 are better. I haven't had any issues with the FMC on the E-190 but I got there about 10 years after you. I am not certain what the current dispatch rate is on the E-190.
You're right there is no shortage of B6 haters! I only came here because the other airlines who I applied to weren't as fast to get back to me except NK but I didn't know how they would hold up overtime. I am starting to regret not going to NK because that would save me from the LAS-JFK commute since NK's LAS domicile is junior. I still am undecided on the ALPA agreement because I worked here both before and after we were unionized as well as a previous airline that was non-union. After we were unionized flight ops and scheduling started playing games with our trips to the point they were FAA legal by minutes. Prior to the union we never had this problem. What the union did bring was a better seniority system so I wasn't locked to a particular position on a particular aircraft for as long. I was at VX before I left due to my wife's deployment and not having FMLA time because I was not there long enough due to being on military leave for a few months. At VX we were nonunion and had no issues. My dislike of ALPA has to do with how they handled the SLI with the AA acquisition of TWA. My pops was with TWA at the time and was almost immediately furloughed.
I do enjoy it here because I get to do what I love which is fly but I'm not sure how much longer I will be at B6. I have an interview with UPS this week but I am having second thoughts about the night flying thanks to advice from @Huntn but I have had them all along. Last night I pushed an app to NK and I have a recommendation going in to United by someone in my reserve squadron.
The A223 is going to be a game changer but I think B6 should have gone to A319neo with a common type rating. It was risky but I want to see how it ends. The rumor is that United will buy our E-190 fleet along with AA's once they retire their's.
Likewise, it was nice chatting with you! I just happened to see this thread after I joined and out of all of the threads I have posted in it is really the only active one. I never went to PPRuNE but I will check it out! I too am surprised by the number of aviation enthusiasts here.Nice chatting with you. I posted earlier as to the fact that I've never really spent time in this thread in my 11 years on MR. The only non Mac thread I'm ever in is the Formula 1 Thread( Rabid Maranello Fan.) Spend most of my time in PPRuNE. Seems like a lot of serious professional aviation enthusiasts in here. I'll have to make it a regular "Top Off" in the future.
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That's good. I know pilots who can barely walk down the aisle on the A320 and they are not fat.
By 0.34 m which is negligible. I have flown both the 737 and A320.
I haven't flown on a 737 MAX but I read that about AA's 737 MAX 8 but not about WN's 737 MAX 8 or UA's 737 MAX 9. AA put 12 more seats in their 737 MAX 8 compared to their 737-800 and UA and WN kept the same configuration on their 737 MAX they had on their 737NG. Like airline seats and pitch I assume toilets are airline specified and not Boeing specified.
Having flown both the 737 and A320 I know this. Not having an active sidestick on the Airbus is bad. When I flew the 737 and Embraer 190 I could look at the yoke and see what the PF or autopilot was doing. In the A320 it is not that easy. The same goes for auto throttle and the thrust leavers. Having an active sidestick such like the Gulfstream G500 and G600 and the Irkut MC-21 lets the pilots know what the auto pilot and the PF are doing.
34cm more fuselage width is not negligible, but will not make me avoid a 737, just prefer the A320.
But if I am not sure that an airline has normal lavs in their 737 MAX, I will certainly avoid it.
Maybe there would have been no miracle on the Hudson without full FBW.
But if I am not sure that an airline has normal lavs in their 737 MAX, I will certainly avoid it.
Maybe there would have been no miracle on the Hudson without full FBW.
Comfortable, yes, although I won’t say fun for passengers which seems to be a negative connotation for passengers flying.
As a passenger, I can say that the overhead bins are more spacious on the A320 than the Boeing 737, as are the bathroom facilities.
Even in Business class, the A320 is more spacious. Everything about the Boeing is more cramped, in my experience.
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Comfortable, yes, although I won’t say fun for passengers which seems to be a negative connotation for passengers flying.
Two years ago, I flew quite a few flights with Aeroflot, - including internal Russian flights - and they were far more comfortable than most western European flights are nowadays in cattle class (coach to Our Transatlantic Cousins).
These days, Russian flights have the sort of reasonably spacious seats you used to find in Economy (i.e. coach) in the 1990s, or early 2000s, but no longer, alas, in western European airlines.
727 and 9 flew all over domestically. 747 flew domestically to support international routes, something like Detroit-Seattle-Tokyo.
It really is negligible. I have flown both for several years, including simultaneously. The extra 0.34 m is about all the A320 has on a 737.
I'm sure smaller lavs can also be installed on an A320neo or even the A380 if that's what an airline orders. It isn't a 737 MAX problem.
What saved Flight 1549 more than anything was that that particular aircraft was ETOPS certified and had rafts and life vests which were not required for the flight. As for full FBW, that didn't help. If you read into what actually happened, Sully was unable to flare the aircraft to reduce its rate of decent. At 200 ft above the water, the speed was noted 15-19 knots lower than Vls. This triggered the Angle of Attack protection system. This system will not allow the Angle of attack to exceed a pre determined value no matter how much back pressure pilot applies on the stick. It prevents the airplane from stalling. The computers overrode his control inputs. If he, however, maintained the speed properly, the protection system would not have become alive and possibly would have enough energy for a proper flare and achieve a lower rate of descent. So, if it was a B737, I think the damage to the airplane would have been lower as its computers are not designed to override the pilot, which would have resulted in a proper flare and slower touch down. The 737 is made to be flown and the A320 is made for autopilot.
While it's not on the Hudson a 737 has been successfully ditched before. Check out Garuda Indonesia Flight 421. Per Wikipedia the cause was "Flameout of both engines in heavy rain/hail followed by water landing" so FBW isn't what caused the Miracle on the Hudson.
Speaking of FBW check out Air France Flight 447 and see how FBW lead to that turning into a fatal disaster. Per Wikipedia:
- In response to the stall, first officer Robert took over control and pushed his control stick forward to lower the nose and recover from the stall; however, Bonin was still pulling his control stick back, lifting the nose further up. The inputs cancelled each other out.
- The pilot-in-control pulled back on the stick, thus increasing the angle of attack and causing the aircraft to climb rapidly.
- In April 2012 in The Daily Telegraph, British journalist Nick Ross published a comparison of Airbus and Boeing flight controls; unlike the control yoke used on Boeing flight decks, the Airbus side stick controls give little visual feedback and no sensory or tactile feedback to the second pilot. Ross reasoned that this might in part explain why the pilot flying's fatal nose-up inputs were not countermanded by his two colleagues
- In a July 2012 CBS report, Sullenberger suggested that the design of the Airbus cockpit might have been a factor in the accident. The flight controls are not mechanically linked between the two pilot seats, and Robert, the left-seat pilot who believed he had taken over control of the aircraft, was not aware that Bonin had continued to hold the stick back, which overrode Robert's own control.
At the end of the day it is what passengers want that determines what airlines do.Comfortable, yes, although I won’t say fun for passengers which seems to be a negative connotation for passengers flying.
Thanks! I miss the era of wide bodies doing hub turns. Now it's the 737 and A320 mainly doing hub turns.
I will still not take an A32* or 757 transatlantic or transcontinental in economy, even with a stop in Iceland.
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Overhead bins and the seats are ordered by the airlines. I'm told the lavs are the same. I have flown on the A330 with many airlines and have seen some comfortable ones and some uncomfortable ones.
That's surprising actually. But airlines decrease pitch and make seats narrower to fit more in to increase profit. Somewhere I read airlines are actually losing profit because customers don't like the decreased pitch and extra seats in the aisle so I expect this will change.
I jump seated on a 757 last week and it still amazes me how much power that has. It was fully loaded with cargo and took off like a Concorde!
Customers absolutely don't like the decreased pitch, narrower less comfortable seats, and extra seats in the aisle. It is bearable for a short flight - of up to around two hours - but horrible for anything longer.
Actually, it is horrible - full stop, but you can grit your teeth for an hour; the decreased pitch means there is little room even in the seat pocket of the seat in front of you, and the arm rests are miserable as well.
As Scepticalscribe said, the difference can be felt.
Boeing designed the tiny lavs to fit more seats on the 737 MAX. If Airbus also offered this, many people would be complaining too.
FBW was not the main reason for the miracle on the Hudson, but it may have been one of the critical success factors.
Garuda 421 broke because of the landing angle. One person died.
IMHO, the main reason AF447 was turned into a disaster was inadequacy for piloting.
The sides stick on the airbus was a nice feature, fun to fly with it, and it was not an issue under most routine operations, but I acknowledge the issue, admit that it would be better if both sticks were synchronized and know of one incident where contrary input almost resulted in an accident.
I agree that cattle class is aweful on an international flight. For myself when we can get into business class for free, that is sweet by virtue of being a former employee.
Otherwise business is too expensive, and instead we opt for something to the equivalent of economy comfort class, which you probably know, is separate from economy, but has better seat pitch and legroom.