The Car Thread ... !

[iLog.Genius]

Sales numbers are out and it looks like BMW takes the luxury/premium sales crown in North America for the fourth consecutive year. Lexus came in second followed by Mercedes.

Of course the 3er is the main contributor but to break it down against the competition:

3er outsold the C-Class 2:1 (surprising seeing the huge amount of the W205 C-Class during the last quarter of the year)
3er outsold the A4 3:1

 

[Muscle Master]

Sales numbers are out and it looks like BMW takes the luxury/premium sales crown in North America for the fourth consecutive year. Lexus came in second followed by Mercedes.

Of course the 3er is the main contributor but to break it down against the competition:

3er outsold the C-Class 2:1 (surprising seeing the huge amount of the W205 C-Class during the last quarter of the year)
3er outsold the A4 3:1

Interesting considering the c class is the superior car... Bone probably has good lease sales

 

[2298754]

Sales numbers are out and it looks like BMW takes the luxury/premium sales crown in North America for the fourth consecutive year. Lexus came in second followed by Mercedes.

Of course the 3er is the main contributor but to break it down against the competition:

3er outsold the C-Class 2:1 (surprising seeing the huge amount of the W205 C-Class during the last quarter of the year)
3er outsold the A4 3:1

I think it's far more impressive that Mercedes was able to sell 21k S Classes in the US. They out sell everyone else in that segment by a significant amount.

Edit

The outdated Audi Q5 outsold the X3, GLK/GLC, and the Lexus NX for the year. Came within 1000 units of the far cheaper RDX.

There's a good chance Mercedes and Lexus will be battling out first place next year. The new RX just started trickling in. Mercedes has the new E/GLS launch and the GLE/GLC will hit full capacity.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I think it's worth mentioning that luxury cars are status symbols as well as being fine automobiles. Sales are dependent as much on marketing and current fashion as they are on design, quality and performance.

Sales, therefore, are only a crude measurement of quality when it comes to luxury cars. After all, the Maserati Biturbo sold like hotcakes - and it was a turd. The Mercedes M-Class has always sold well but it is not really up to the standard MB is famous for.

 

[puma1552]

Sales numbers are out and it looks like BMW takes the luxury/premium sales crown in North America for the fourth consecutive year. Lexus came in second followed by Mercedes.

Of course the 3er is the main contributor but to break it down against the competition:

3er outsold the C-Class 2:1 (surprising seeing the huge amount of the W205 C-Class during the last quarter of the year)
3er outsold the A4 3:1

This isn't really shocking. BMW has turned the 3er into a soft, pliant, floaty, bloated turd to appeal to the masses, and subsidizing the leases with obscenely unrealistic residuals means any 22 year old out of college can lease one - and they do.

I see a lot of weenie kids right out of college thinking they are hotshots in their $300-$400/month leased BMWs at their little junior analyst jobs. Mercs or Audis? Not so much.
[doublepost=1452091650][/doublepost]

I think it's far more impressive that Mercedes was able to sell 21k S Classes in the US. They out sell everyone else in that segment by a significant amount.

As they should. The S-class absolutely owns that segment...the 7 and A8 simply don't (can't) compete. The new 7 doesn't even come close.

Of course the official line from the BMW face over on bimmerpost is that the 7 doesn't compete with the S-class whatsoever based largely on price, but tell that to prospective buyers who are cross shopping. I highly doubt anyone looking at an S-class isn't also considering a 7 or A8.

 

[2298754]

Of course the official line from the BMW face over on bimmerpost is that the 7 doesn't compete with the S-class whatsoever based largely on price, but tell that to prospective buyers who are cross shopping. I highly doubt anyone looking at an S-class isn't also considering a 7 or A8.

Haha. What a lie.

If I'm buying an S, I'm giving the BMW and Audi a look. They're all on the same level. But I agree. The S is just that good, but with my internet monies, it would be an S8.

 

[quagmire]

I think it's worth mentioning that luxury cars are status symbols as well as being fine automobiles. Sales are dependent as much on marketing and current fashion as they are on design, quality and performance.

Sales, therefore, are only a crude measurement of quality when it comes to luxury cars. After all, the Maserati Biturbo sold like hotcakes - and it was a turd. The Mercedes M-Class has always sold well but it is not really up to the standard MB is famous for.

Yep. People simply buy for the badge and buy into "German engineering" even if there is a better product out there. How many FWD 1 series will be sold, CLA's, A3's, etc. The bargain basement and brand ruining vehicles just meant to satisfy the badge whores that can't afford anything else.

 

[puma1552]

Haha. What a lie.

If I'm buying an S, I'm giving the BMW and Audi a look. They're all on the same level. But I agree. The S is just that good, but with my internet monies, it would be an S8.

It would be a tough toss up for me between an S or an S8. The S8 would be cool, but the S just has that panache which would be something different. More of a car to be chauffeured in than driven, which for me would be a different kind of car since I've always had enthusiast cars. Change is nice sometimes.

Yep. People simply buy for the badge and buy into "German engineering" even if there is a better product out there. How many FWD 1 series will be sold, CLA's, A3's, etc. The bargain basement and brand ruining vehicles just meant to satisfy the badge whores that can't afford anything else.

The A3 is a decent car, it just sucks it's Haldex instead of Torsen. Then again a Golf R is Haldex and nobody seems to mind. I'd buy an A3 in 2.0T Quattro flavor, the interior is gorgeous and so fresh looking too. But I agree, the vast majority of these entry level cars actually aren't that great and are just sold to badge whores. You could negotiate a no-option FWD 1.8 A3 to like $27k brand new, and the person driving that would get more attention/false status than me in my $42k Mustang (paid $34.5k after negotiation). Same with the CLA, which isn't even a real Mercedes. I'll give the 320i a pass, since it's actually probably the purest BMW built, if you know BMW pre-E46/E90 days. 320i with sport and a 6MT and lighting package could be a real hoot for $34k.

As far as German engineering, this is a joke. As an engineer myself, good engineering is simple engineering, not overly complex engineering that results in much higher rates of electrical problems, like all German cars have. Case in point - my wife's Beetle's windows roll down a quarter inch to clear the weatherstripping when you touch the door handle - both sides. Why? If only a driver is getting into the car, why not roll down just the driver's window? My Mustang on the other hand does it right - only the window on the door being opened rolls down to clear the weatherstripping. Completely unnecessary to have both windows roll down, causing excess wear. And if the passenger door isn't opened, that window stays rolled down for a good 20-30 seconds before realizing nobody's going to open the door and rolling back up - great when it's pouring rain out.

 

[iLog.Genius]

This isn't really shocking. BMW has turned the 3er into a soft, pliant, floaty, bloated turd to appeal to the masses, and subsidizing the leases with obscenely unrealistic residuals means any 22 year old out of college can lease one - and they do.

I see a lot of weenie kids right out of college thinking they are hotshots in their $300-$400/month leased BMWs at their little junior analyst jobs. Mercs or Audis? Not so much.

The 3er always dominated so it becoming a softer car has nothing to do with it.

As for who is buying and at what price, I always hated whenever someone brings it up like it only relates to BMWs. When did BMWs suddenly become this brand where you can make the distinction that the average 3er buyer is a brand snob and buying a C-Class, you're not? If you can afford to get into a 3er, you can get into a C-Class. As far as I'm concerned, if you're going to make a judgement about 3er, you can make the same about the C-Class because they're similar in every way.

Of course the official line from the BMW face over on bimmerpost is that the 7 doesn't compete with the S-class whatsoever based largely on price

Since when? Everyone at Bimmerpost says the exact opposite. This is the first time in a while where the 7er is actually competitive with the S-Class. Which one is better? I don't know and frankly I don't care. From a competitive standpoint, BMW finally brought the 7er to a point where you have to seriously consider it with the S-Class.

 

[FX120]

As far as German engineering, this is a joke. As an engineer myself, good engineering is simple engineering, not overly complex engineering that results in much higher rates of electrical problems, like all German cars have. Case in point - my wife's Beetle's windows roll down a quarter inch to clear the weatherstripping when you touch the door handle - both sides. Why? If only a driver is getting into the car, why not roll down just the driver's window? My Mustang on the other hand does it right - only the window on the door being opened rolls down to clear the weatherstripping. Completely unnecessary to have both windows roll down, causing excess wear. And if the passenger door isn't opened, that window stays rolled down for a good 20-30 seconds before realizing nobody's going to open the door and rolling back up - great when it's pouring rain out.

It can go either way. A good example I'm dealing with right now at work is with our Air compressors. We've got several rotary screw air compressors, some are from a US company (Quincy NW) and some are from a German company (Kaeser). The Quincy screws are pretty basic internally and regulate their temperature with a thermostat similar to the one you'd find on a car. Because of this simple method of temperature regulation, the dimensions and tolerances of the screw need to be loose enough to accommodate for the thermal growth of the screw over a wider range with the consequence of being significantly less efficient at lower operating temperatures.

The Kaeser on the other hand has a servo-driven proportional valve for temperature regulation which allows it to quickly warm to the optimal operating temperature and hold it to a significantly smaller range. The Kaeser also has a complicated control system with a industrial PC, a multitude of temperature and pressure sensors, switches and in the case of one, a variable speed drive that changes the primary motor speed depending on demand. There is WAY more to go wrong, but it all exists in order to allow the VFD Kaeser to be roughly 30% more efficient than the VFD Quincy it replaced. The non VFD Kaesers are about 25% more efficient than the Quincy screws they are replacing.

We're replacing our old and inefficient but very reliable air compressors with newer more complicated models due to the significant savings that can be achieved with our power bill each month, knowing full well that some day that fancy servo valve will probably fail.

 

[quagmire]

It can go either way. A good example I'm dealing with right now at work is with our Air compressors. We've got several rotary screw air compressors, some are from a US company (Quincy NW) and some are from a German company (Kaeser). The Quincy screws are pretty basic internally and regulate their temperature with a thermostat similar to the one you'd find on a car. Because of this simple method of temperature regulation, the dimensions and tolerances of the screw need to be loose enough to accommodate for the thermal growth of the screw over a wider range with the consequence of being significantly less efficient at lower operating temperatures.

The Kaeser on the other hand has a servo-driven proportional valve for temperature regulation which allows it to quickly warm to the optimal operating temperature and hold it to a significantly smaller range. The Kaeser also has a complicated control system with a industrial PC, a multitude of temperature and pressure sensors, switches and in the case of one, a variable speed drive that changes the primary motor speed depending on demand. There is WAY more to go wrong, but it all exists in order to allow the VFD Kaeser to be roughly 30% more efficient than the VFD Quincy it replaced. The non VFD Kaesers are about 25% more efficient than the Quincy screws they are replacing.

We're replacing our old and inefficient but very reliable air compressors with newer more complicated models due to the significant savings that can be achieved with our power bill each month, knowing full well that some day that fancy servo valve will probably fail.

That doesn't show German engineering is superior. It shows the different philosophies between German and American companies. American companies care about the bottom line and will do things as cheap as possible to keep profit ups, but cheap enough to satisfy American consumers desire for good products at cheap prices. If American companies cared about more precision we certainly are capable of it. Apple is proof of that.

 

[puma1552]

The 3er always dominated so it becoming a softer car has nothing to do with it.

As for who is buying and at what price, I always hated whenever someone brings it up like it only relates to BMWs. When did BMWs suddenly become this brand where you can make the distinction that the average 3er buyer is a brand snob and buying a C-Class, you're not? If you can afford to get into a 3er, you can get into a C-Class. As far as I'm concerned, if you're going to make a judgement about 3er, you can make the same about the C-Class because they're similar in every way.

The 3er always dominated because it was actually the best car in its class. This simply isn't the case anymore. Even Motortrend said flat out the 2016 Camaro was a better car than a 340, imagine that. The reality is the competition is so much better than what it used to be, and BMW simply relied on their marketing machine and reputation and eventually the car got bloated and soft to the point it fell off Car and Driver's 10 best after 22 consecutive years - BMW basically got complacent and fell asleep at the wheel. It falling off that list is likely directly related to it now being the size of an E39 5er and being about as soft with numb steering to boot. The introduction of the 320i at $32k also is helping BMW sales bigtime here, tapping into the badge whores which they previously didn't have a model cheap enough to do so with as IIRC when it came out it was about $5k cheaper than a 328i, which is roughly $100/month when financing over a 5 year loan (for those few who actually buy instead of lease).

The reason people always bring up cost with BMW is because it's a simple truth - the BMW residuals are absurd compared to the competition and in no way represent reality in terms of what the car is actually worth at lease end. Lease a BMW and you will never, ever have positive equity at the end of the lease term - because the residuals are way higher than reality. While being constantly upside down on the lease doesn't really matter as most people keep the lease til the end and just turn it in for another, the fact remains that BMWs are extremely attractive to lease, more so than Audi/Merc, and even VW in some cases. Getting into a base 320i vs a base C-class is going to have a larger monthly $ delta than you think, I suspect.

Look at anyone posting on Bimmerpost - they cross shop the S4 with their 335i and pretty much everyone laments that the S4 is $100-$200 more per month on a lease, so they get the BMW.

FWIW, I never said anything about 3ers being brand snobs vs anyone else. I simply said lots of hotshot kids come out of college and lease their BMW because they're cheap to lease, not because they are brand snobs, this is truth - just look at BimmerPost. Average age on that forum is sub-30.

Since when? Everyone at Bimmerpost says the exact opposite. This is the first time in a while where the 7er is actually competitive with the S-Class. Which one is better? I don't know and frankly I don't care. From a competitive standpoint, BMW finally brought the 7er to a point where you have to seriously consider it with the S-Class.

SCOTT26 over on Bimmerpost works for BMW corporate in Europe and posts regularly, and he directly stated in no uncertain terms that the new 7 does not compete with the S class in a thread where everyone was saying the new 7 sucked compared to the S class. That was his defense of why the 7 can't compete with the S-class, because supposedly, it isn't supposed to. I tried to find the thread, but it was a long time ago, sometime during the summer?
[doublepost=1452106944][/doublepost]

That doesn't show German engineering is superior. It shows the different philosophies between German and American companies. American companies care about the bottom line and will do things as cheap as possible to keep profit ups, but cheap enough to satisfy American consumers desire for good products at cheap prices. If American companies cared about more precision we certainly are capable of it. Apple is proof of that.

I don't think it was a bad example per se, but I don't think it's a very relevant example to building a car. In that example the German component is much more complex with a justifiable goal in mind - better efficiency. But in the case of a German car, the electrical harnesses are just unnecessarily complex and overengineered - no purpose is served being that way, except to generate more parts and service dollars, I guess.

 

[lowendlinux]

The 3 series is huge it no surprise to me that enthusiast magazine don't like it yet people do. The 3 series is truly a BUFF

 

[diamond.g]

So what is the MacRumors car folks take on the Bolt?

 

[2298754]

So what is the MacRumors car folks take on the Bolt?

I think it looks great and should be at a good price, but I'm not too big in EVs in general!

 

[AustinIllini]

So what is the MacRumors car folks take on the Bolt?

In a world infatuated with the actions of Tesla, the Bolt represents a real effort to make a car people will actually buy.

Nothing against Tesla, but the Model 3 is a make or break model for them.

 

[diamond.g]

Yeah I'd like a Model 3, but the Bolt seems to be growing on me. Noticing that GM went with a small CUV versus a sedan, which does provide more utility, plus I am a sucker for hatches...

 

[2298754]

This isn't really shocking. BMW has turned the 3er into a soft, pliant, floaty, bloated turd to appeal to the masses, and subsidizing the leases with obscenely unrealistic residuals means any 22 year old out of college can lease one - and they do.

I think this is a tad excessive. While I agree that the F30 has been watered down and lacks that old traditional BMW "feel," it's still the best overall car in its class. And I'm taking into account: performance, driving dynamics, space, ergonomics, fit/finish, looks, technology, etc.

Yes, the competition might do certain things better, but when you put together, nope. Nothing beats the 3. The A4/C are a close second/third.. You can rank the three Germans anyway you want IMO, but there's no denying that they are the top 3 in this segment.

ATS: Best in class handling. Poor interior quality, CUE sucks, terrible resale, too small, looks dated, poor engine lineup
IS: fantastic resale, best fit/finish/quality, cramped, crap engines, will be bulletproof
Q50: video game steering, InTouch is junk, basically an outdated warmed over G37

With my imaginary money, I would have a hard time choosing between an S4, 340xi, and C450. But I think the nod goes to the BMW or Audi because manual.

[doublepost=1452177025][/doublepost]

I I'll give the 320i a pass, since it's actually probably the purest BMW built, if you know BMW pre-E46/E90 days. 320i with sport and a 6MT and lighting package could be a real hoot for $34k.

This is a no go in my region. Can't get a 320xi in manual

 

[puma1552]

I think this is a tad excessive. While I agree that the F30 has been watered down and lacks that old traditional BMW "feel," it's still the best overall car in its class. And I'm taking into account: performance, driving dynamics, space, ergonomics, fit/finish, looks, technology, etc.

Yes, the competition might do certain things better, but when you put together, nope. Nothing beats the 3. The A4/C are a close second/third.. You can rank the three Germans anyway you want IMO, but there's no denying that they are the top 3 in this segment.

ATS: Best in class handling. Poor interior quality, CUE sucks, terrible resale, too small, looks dated, poor engine lineup
IS: fantastic resale, best fit/finish/quality, cramped, crap engines, will be bulletproof
Q50: video game steering, InTouch is junk, basically an outdated warmed over G37

With my imaginary money, I would have a hard time choosing between an S4, 340xi, and C450. But I think the nod goes to the BMW or Audi because manual.

I'll agree with most of this, the only problem is that for the 3 to be good, you either need the aforementioned stripper 320 with sport, or you need to spend like $60-$65k for a 340 which is completely absurd. The ATS is just a sandwich short of a picnic basket from being a FANTASTIC car - it will get there though. The IS looks alright from the back, but dear god is it ugly from the front. Teeny tiny headlights with the LEDs separated out (what were they thinking), and that offensive grille? Yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck. Lexus needs new design language ASAP. If Lexus could get with the styling program and make something fun to drive, there would be no reason to look anywhere else when you consider the refinement, build quality, quietness, and resale you get with a Lexus. Unfortunately for now, they aren't even on my radar. The Q50 is a nice looking car. Haven't driven an Infiniti since I test drove a G35 coupe back when they were new, it was very underwhelming/boring. I don't know that I would spend my money on a Q50 though in that segment.

This is a no go in my region. Can't get a 320xi in manual

Well it would of course need to be RWD.

On that note, I didn't realize you couldn't get the xi in manual. That's pretty stupid.

 

[iLog.Genius]

I think this is a tad excessive. While I agree that the F30 has been watered down and lacks that old traditional BMW "feel," it's still the best overall car in its class. And I'm taking into account: performance, driving dynamics, space, ergonomics, fit/finish, looks, technology, etc.

Yes, the competition might do certain things better, but when you put together, nope. Nothing beats the 3. The A4/C are a close second/third.. You can rank the three Germans anyway you want IMO, but there's no denying that they are the top 3 in this segment.

ATS: Best in class handling. Poor interior quality, CUE sucks, terrible resale, too small, looks dated, poor engine lineup
IS: fantastic resale, best fit/finish/quality, cramped, crap engines, will be bulletproof
Q50: video game steering, InTouch is junk, basically an outdated warmed over G37

With my imaginary money, I would have a hard time choosing between an S4, 340xi, and C450. But I think the nod goes to the BMW or Audi because manual.

Agreed. At the end of the day, yes the 3er has lost some of it's feel but it still feels better the competition. Other than that, nothing has changed. Now if you say you would buy the C-Class because of its interior, well than that's what you want in a car because regardless of trim and package, it's not going to feel as dynamic as a 3er and you were never going to buy a 3er anyway.

This is the most competition the 3er has ever felt but at the end of the day, overall the 3er still ticks the boxes for me over the competition.

 

[2298754]

I'll agree with most of this, the only problem is that for the 3 to be good, you either need the aforementioned stripper 320 with sport, or you need to spend like $60-$65k for a 340 which is completely absurd. The ATS is just a sandwich short of a picnic basket from being a FANTASTIC car - it will get there though. The IS looks alright from the back, but dear god is it ugly from the front. Teeny tiny headlights with the LEDs separated out (what were they thinking), and that offensive grille? Yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck. Lexus needs new design language ASAP. If Lexus could get with the styling program and make something fun to drive, there would be no reason to look anywhere else when you consider the refinement, build quality, quietness, and resale you get with a Lexus. Unfortunately for now, they aren't even on my radar. The Q50 is a nice looking car. Haven't driven an Infiniti since I test drove a G35 coupe back when they were new, it was very underwhelming/boring. I don't know that I would spend my money on a Q50 though in that segment.

Yeah, I just built a 340xi MSport in Estoril Blue with all the toys I want. $63k lol. At that point, I'd be looking to spend slightly more to get into a stripped out M3 or CPO Audi S6/7.

I agree about the IS design. The Nike separated LEDs are hideous. The F Sport IS is even worse. It's kind of palatable in dark grey with the regular trim, non F-Sport.

I don't think I'd spend $50k+ on an Infiniti... ever. Or even an Acura TLX. No thanks. Overpriced for that they are.

On that note, I didn't realize you couldn't get the xi in manual. That's pretty stupid.

BMW only sells the 340xi in manual. Not the 320/328. If you get RWD, it's sold across the lineup.

I guess they're ok with charging us AWD folk extra for the 335/340.
[doublepost=1452216145][/doublepost]

Agreed. At the end of the day, yes the 3er has lost some of it's feel but it still feels better the competition. Other than that, nothing has changed. Now if you say you would buy the C-Class because of its interior, well than that's what you want in a car because regardless of trim and package, it's not going to feel as dynamic as a 3er and you were never going to buy a 3er anyway.

This is the most competition the 3er has ever felt but at the end of the day, overall the 3er still ticks the boxes for me over the competition.

Exactly. Year after year, we hear about "3-series killers," but they always fall short. The only ones that come remotely close are the other Tier 1 luxury makers. (Audi/Mercedes/Lexus) Acura/Infiniti/Cadillac all have significant flaws to be considered.

Another new entry into this segment is the Jaguar XE. It's pretty, but doesn't excite me one bit. The interior looks bland as hell.

Can't wait to see what Audi does with the B9 A4!

 

[puma1552]

Can't wait to see what Audi does with the B9 A4!

I was hoping for more, honestly.

 

[iLog.Genius]

I was hoping for more, honestly.

This. The B9 A4 isn't anything special. Either you love Audi's and you think the B9 A4 is the best or you don't. I don't see it attracting someone on the fence of buying an A4, 3-Series or C-Class. The C-Class is the only one, IMO, that has any type of pulling influence.

 

[AustinIllini]

This. The B9 A4 isn't anything special. Either you love Audi's and you think the B9 A4 is the best or you don't. I don't see it attracting someone on the fence of buying an A4, 3-Series or C-Class. The C-Class is the only one, IMO, that has any type of pulling influence.

Audi hit their stride in 2009 with the A4. It's rested on its laurels since, I'm afraid.

 

[puma1552]

Audi hit their stride in 2009 with the A4. It's rested on its laurels since, I'm afraid.

I love Audi, but like BMW, I think they need to try something new. The B9 is a completely new car, but nobody will know it and it just looks like another A4.

I was really hoping to see the interior of the A4 take cues from the A3, which is so contemporary and fresh.

Merc has done a nice job of making/keeping things fresh, style-wise. Saw my first S-class coupe this morning finally, what a head-turner.