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jca24

macrumors 6502a
Jul 28, 2010
825
129
DFW
How is that laughable? What she says is correct essentially. In the luxury market, do people buy the car because it is truly the best car available or the brand( with the associated prestige/image, etc)? If you take the 3 series and ATS and swap the badges, the ATS sales will probably skyrocket and 3 series will tank.

Now you have to have good product to back it up, but it doesn't have to be the best. Luxury cars are about the brand, not about the car itself. You drool over Aston Martin's, you drool over Bentley's, dream to own the Bugatti Veyron, etc. Why? Because you are sold on the brand. People want a BMW, Mercedes, and Audi because of the image not because they are the best cars. People dismiss the ATS and CTS just because it is a Cadillac and not " German engineering". You can approach a random person on the street, ask them about the Cadillac ATS and mostly likely they will go, " It sucks", "It's for old people", etc without even knowing what the ATS looks like, never even look at it in person, or drive it. Why? Because of the current image of the brand. All they had to hear was, " Cadillac" to jump to it sucks. Can do the same with the BMW 3 series and the results will be different.

Marketing is also key. People need to be sold on the image/prestige and Cadillac's marketing sucks.

She may not have worded it correctly, but her point was very much true. You can't approach the luxury market the same way as the mainstream market.

Ok, I will take back the bimbo comment.
My overall point is caddy is a dying brand. So are Sears, JP Penney and Radio Shack. All failed to change with the times and the competition left them behind. Caddy can move to NY, hire all the people they want, change the names of their cars, whatever. To little, to late.

----------

Few thoughts on last few pages:

1) That Infiniti SUV looks like an elephant. It's the definition of disgusting, oversized excess.
2) Ford GT? Ford continues playing to win. GT 350 will be sublime.
3) Caddy ATS? Considered it until I realized they packaged options like Japanese brands and VW where I had to spend $45k MINIMUM to get xenons. Automatically eliminated from my list, never looked back.
4) Ripping on Acura for options for the price by comparing to Germans does not compute. The worst offenders for "luxury" vehicle features are BMW and MB, Audi perhaps a little less so. Go to your BMW dealer, ALL you will see is crummy black, no-line, halogen cars. I went to the MB dealer recently and there was an entire row of $50k+ SUVs and not ONE had anything but halogen headlights, and reflector halogens at that. They should be ****in' ashamed of themselves for even selling cars without HIDs or better standard across the line on supposed luxury brands in 2015.
5) Caddy and Corvette excepted, GM interiors are hideous junk with oversized bubbly rounded plastics. Didn't they learn anything from the mid-'90s garbage that ran them into the ground? Anything at all about interior design? Ugliest interiors of any manufacturer, period.
6) Caddy pricing is ok, the option packaging is the problem. I can spend upper $30ks on a Honda Accord which is borderline criminal as it is so where should the Caddy slot in? Surely it's worth a few points better.
7) Caddy styling is nice, the image is the problem. Old people or drug dealers, take your pick. Most people would rather badge whore a soft 328i off the lot that is black with halogens and no-line even though it's surely the crappier car.
8) German engineering is bad engineering. Good engineering is simple engineering, not overly complex engineering (I'm an engineer myself). The Germans haven't figured this out yet - or since everyone just wants to badge whore and will lease some off the lot turd perpetually either because they can't afford to actually buy the vehicle or because they know the vehicle will be a financial nightmare of garbage reliability beyond the warranty, the Germans have literally zero incentive to turn their crap around and build something reliable. At least the Americans had a major kick in the pants to turn it around, and they have (except GM interiors).
9) $150k for an NSX? No thanks. Still too ungodly ugly.
10) German cars (except P-car) are no longer benchmarks. Not reliable, BMWs in particular have very low-rent interiors for the price paid ($60k+ for a loaded 335i and an interior no different than a 320i? lol), and even the driving dynamics have gotten soft. I will say though that MB is playing to win with the W205 C-class. BMW builds extremely mediocre cars but has a wonderful marketing machine that has everyone drinking the Kool-Aid, buying lot junk no-line 328s with halogens and soft suspensions thinking it's the ultimate driving machine. BMW hasn't built that in over 20 years. They're selling cars on reputation and getting lazy, and people are starting to notice. $90k for a loaded M3? Go **** yourself BMW, seriously. We are only a couple years off from a $100k 3 series. lolololololololol
11) Lexus has made great strides. The RC-F still makes no torque though, and they are still boring and the grilles are painful to look at. Still, they're a lot better than the tarted up Toyotas they once were, even if underneath some still are.
12) Want a good sport sedan? BMW 320i with sport and lighting and a manual, probably the truest and most distilled driving experience BMW offers today, and probably the best value in the entire lineup.
13) Acura needs to just do what it does best - make tarted up Hondas for non-car people who want a nice car they don't have to worry about maintaining and who think it's nice to be seen in. They are not a performance company and shouldn't bother trying to be one. They are also not a luxury brand. They sure are ugly from the front though, they still haven't gotten the memo on that.
14) The new S class owns the market. The upcoming G01 7 series looks like a 320i inside. BMW claims the 7 doesn't compare with the S, but that's BS in the minds of shoppers and everyone knows everyone cross shops the two. MB owns BMW here, and Audi. BMW claims the 7 is a drivers car while the S is a car you get driven in, but then why is the G01 coming with an anemic 4-pot? lol, there's literally no market for that car.
15) BMW has lot its way so badly with the severe diluting of the brand with 500 different models between gran coupe, coupe, sedan, GT, etc. It's a mess over there. Oh and they now have a FWD pile of **** called the 2 series Active Tourer. That model says it all, BMW has some FWD minivan. Ultimate driving machine? lol
16) America needs more diesel offerings, but this will never happen. VW owns this market.
17) Ultimate drug dealer car? Chrysler 300, called that way back in 2005 and sure enough that came true. Didn't take long to sink in value enough to be hoodrat cars.
18) Challenger is a neat car but continuously outperformed in every metric by the other two. Dodge doesn't get it, the Challenger is stale as hell and looks like a minivan inside. Challenger owners are the saltiest bunch of any community, bunch of old redneck boomers who claimed for years they didn't care their cars got left in the dust by the other two because "they have useable trunks and enough power, they are boulevard cruisers while the Mustang and Camaro are too cramped." Maybe the boomers are just too fat to fit in the other two. Then the Hellcat comes along and they are waving it all over, too bad the car is still a fat pig and doesn't handle well. Try losing 500 pounds instead. Chrysler doesn't get it, and it took 8 years to get a minor mid-cylce facelift, come on.
19) That Jag interior above is horrid, I too mistakenly thought they had turned a corner.

You hit the nail on the head, except #9, I doubt the new NSX will be 150k, probably closer to 120-130k. In person it will look awesome.
 
Last edited:

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,467
Vilano Beach, FL
You hit the nail on the head, except #9, I doubt the new NSX will be 150k, probably closer to 120-130k. In person it will look awesome.

FWIW, all the major sources are reporting that Acura indicated “about $150K”, with some reporting it as “At least $150K” (of course not factoring in highly limited availability that probably stacks another $25K+ on the real world price).
 

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,699
10,566
Austin, TX
Ok, I will take back the bimbo comment.
My overall point is caddy is a dying brand. So are Sears, JP Penney and Radio Shack. All failed to change with the times and the competition left them behind. Caddy can move to NY, hire all the people they want, change the names of their cars, whatever. To little, to late.

----------



You hit the nail on the head, except #9, I doubt the new NSX will be 150k, probably closer to 120-130k. In person it will look awesome.

I drove an Audi for a couple of years, and every once in a while I look to switch back to a German brand, and I"ll tell you what, to get the as advertised features, you have to add so many packages. The interior is worse than my Acura on base BMWs, the 320i has a terrible power output, the "cold weather package" from BMW is standard on Acura and Lexus. While I don't love that my TSX is FWD and I didn't get tech so I have a pretty old school radio, I do love that it has all the basic features you pay for on a German car.

Would I buy an Acura again? Maybe. They're reliable as hell and my TSX is a champ, but to rip it as expensive Honda isn't fair.

In General, Acuras are
1) Quieter
2) Better transmissions (TLX = 8 spd DCT, Accord CVT with some slower Manuals)
3) Tuned faster
4) Quieter
5) Better quality interiors.

I tried to get all the options I had on my TLX in a Honda. I test drove it, and it wasn't the same. Most people who honestly think Acuras are just Accords haven't actually driven Acuras.
 

turtle777

macrumors 6502a
Apr 30, 2004
686
30
Audis were hideous before him and world class afterwards.

He was PRESIDENT auf Audi in Japan and America from 1999-2012.

As a president, being OUTSIDE of Germany, he would not have had any major influence on design & product development decisions.

-t
 

jca24

macrumors 6502a
Jul 28, 2010
825
129
DFW
I drove an Audi for a couple of years, and every once in a while I look to switch back to a German brand, and I"ll tell you what, to get the as advertised features, you have to add so many packages. The interior is worse than my Acura on base BMWs, the 320i has a terrible power output, the "cold weather package" from BMW is standard on Acura and Lexus. While I don't love that my TSX is FWD and I didn't get tech so I have a pretty old school radio, I do love that it has all the basic features you pay for on a German car.

Would I buy an Acura again? Maybe. They're reliable as hell and my TSX is a champ, but to rip it as expensive Honda isn't fair.

In General, Acuras are
1) Quieter
2) Better transmissions (TLX = 8 spd DCT, Accord CVT with some slower Manuals)
3) Tuned faster
4) Quieter
5) Better quality interiors.

I tried to get all the options I had on my TLX in a Honda. I test drove it, and it wasn't the same. Most people who honestly think Acuras are just Accords haven't actually driven Acuras.

Very true, Acuras are great cars. The people that bash them have not driven them.

----------

FWIW, all the major sources are reporting that Acura indicated “about $150K”, with some reporting it as “At least $150K” (of course not factoring in highly limited availability that probably stacks another $25K+ on the real world price).

I know, I have read all the articles on the new NSX. I was just saying I think the sticker will be 125-130k, market adjustment could pull it up way over 150k. I think they need some good volume on the car to justify the plant that wil build it. My opinion is 125k is that magic price.
 

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,699
10,566
Austin, TX
He was PRESIDENT auf Audi in Japan and America from 1999-2012.

As a president, being OUTSIDE of Germany, he would not have had any major influence on design & product development decisions.

-t

The guy in charge of two of Audi's major markets has no input on design.

Okay...
 

turtle777

macrumors 6502a
Apr 30, 2004
686
30
The guy in charge of two of Audi's major markets has no input on design.

Okay...

"Input on design" is very vague. I intentionally said "MAJOR INFLUENCE".

He might have had "input" (whatever that means), but he would have been no major influence on and driver of the design or engineering choices.

That's not how German car manufacturers work.

-t
 

2298754

Cancelled
Jun 21, 2010
4,890
941
Very true, Acuras are great cars. The people that bash them have not driven them.


I have driven them... All the time. There was a period when I wanted a 1G TSX, but couldn't own one because Acura didn't have a dealer in the state I lived in.

I tend to bash Acura because they always find a way to screw up and there's really nothing about them that justifies the upcharge for the brand. The only car I'll make a case for is the MDX, that's it.

Once you've actually owned the different German brands, it's tough to go back to a fancy Honda. Especially when I could go buy a Lexus if reliability was really my #1 priority. I can't think of a single reason to buy a TLX over a Lexus IS.
 

jca24

macrumors 6502a
Jul 28, 2010
825
129
DFW
I have driven them... All the time. There was a period when I wanted a 1G TSX, but couldn't own one because Acura didn't have a dealer in the state I lived in.

I tend to bash Acura because they always find a way to screw up and there's really nothing about them that justifies the upcharge for the brand. The only car I'll make a case for is the MDX, that's it.

Once you've actually owned the different German brands, it's tough to go back to a fancy Honda. Especially when I could go buy a Lexus if reliability was really my #1 priority. I can't think of a single reason to buy a TLX over a Lexus IS.

You make some good points. I agree Acura has gotten a bit off track. The Lesxus IS is a great car and if i were in the market for one of the two i would probably get the Lexus. As for the German cars, I like some of them buy would never buy new, the resale on those cars is laughable compared to the Jananese cars.
 

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,699
10,566
Austin, TX
You make some good points. I agree Acura has gotten a bit off track. The Lesxus IS is a great car and if i were in the market for one of the two i would probably get the Lexus. As for the German cars, I like some of them buy would never buy new, the resale on those cars is laughable compared to the Jananese cars.

It is a great car, but the back seat is just so small
 

iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
4,925
479
Toronto, Ontario
Once you've actually owned the different German brands, it's tough to go back to a fancy Honda.

This. You go to any car forum and one thing you'll always read is what does a German car have that competing car X doesn't? And right there I know that person has not had seat time in a German car. The assumption that because both cars have leather, they must be the same. Wrong. I'm not trying to be pretentious or snobby in anyway but the difference in quality is noticeable and while someone might not care for the difference, to say car X has everything that a German car may have and the quality is more/less the same is incorrect.
 

puma1552

Suspended
Nov 20, 2008
5,559
1,947
This. You go to any car forum and one thing you'll always read is what does a German car have that competing car X doesn't? And right there I know that person has not had seat time in a German car. The assumption that because both cars have leather, they must be the same. Wrong. I'm not trying to be pretentious or snobby in anyway but the difference in quality is noticeable and while someone might not care for the difference, to say car X has everything that a German car may have and the quality is more/less the same is incorrect.

The quality in German cars has been on the decline for years while they ride their marketing machine.

Dakota leather? Can't tell the difference between it and leatherette.

I'm always perplexed by the way forum members on German sites always talk about build quality this, fit and finish that, when in reality these are the same people that refuse to own the car out of warranty because they know it will fall apart. Doesn't seem like good quality if it falls apart as soon as the warranty is over. The quality and better engineered car is the one that lasts, not the $60k one with debatably better interior plastics that is sitting on the side of the road in limp mode.
 

AustinIllini

macrumors G5
Oct 20, 2011
12,699
10,566
Austin, TX
This. You go to any car forum and one thing you'll always read is what does a German car have that competing car X doesn't? And right there I know that person has not had seat time in a German car. The assumption that because both cars have leather, they must be the same. Wrong. I'm not trying to be pretentious or snobby in anyway but the difference in quality is noticeable and while someone might not care for the difference, to say car X has everything that a German car may have and the quality is more/less the same is incorrect.

Have you tried to buy a BMW lately? Leather isn't standard. To get all the bells and whistles costs and extra $10,000.

It's not an even comparison. They do different things. Japanese cars give you things standard and can be run forever. German cars charge a ridiculous premium for options like heated seats and tend to have problem after 75,000 miles.
 

iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
4,925
479
Toronto, Ontario
The quality in German cars has been on the decline for years while they ride their marketing machine.

Dakota leather? Can't tell the difference between it and leatherette.

I'm always perplexed by the way forum members on German sites always talk about build quality this, fit and finish that, when in reality these are the same people that refuse to own the car out of warranty because they know it will fall apart. Doesn't seem like good quality if it falls apart as soon as the warranty is over. The quality and better engineered car is the one that lasts, not the $60k one with debatably better interior plastics that is sitting on the side of the road in limp mode.

Have you tried to buy a BMW lately? Leather isn't standard. To get all the bells and whistles costs and extra $10,000.

It's not an even comparison. They do different things. Japanese cars give you things standard and can be run forever. German cars charge a ridiculous premium for options like heated seats and tend to have problem after 75,000 miles.

I was not talking about options. Germans have been skimping on these for years. I was referring to comparing when they actually have the same options. We know you can get any car that's cheaper than a German, that's a given. But when you say well this Lexus IS has leather and it's the same or identical quality of real leather found in the A4/3-Series/C-Class, it's a noticeable difference. Did a customer buy that leather in the German car for a lot more than that of the Lexus? Absolutely. You can argue that you get more value in the Lexus than a German but don't say the quality is the same.
 

jca24

macrumors 6502a
Jul 28, 2010
825
129
DFW
I was not talking about options. Germans have been skimping on these for years. I was referring to comparing when they actually have the same options. We know you can get any car that's cheaper than a German, that's a given. But when you say well this Lexus IS has leather and it's the same or identical quality of real leather found in the A4/3-Series/C-Class, it's a noticeable difference. Did a customer buy that leather in the German car for a lot more than that of the Lexus? Absolutely. You can argue that you get more value in the Lexus than a German but don't say the quality is the same.

I would hold up a Lexus to a bimmer any day. The quality, leather, or what ever is as good or better than bmw. Value, Lexus blows bmw away, and resale, well you already know who wins there.

Oh, and the "free" maintenence bimmer gives you, thats a joke, you pay for that upfront when you buy the car.
 

puma1552

Suspended
Nov 20, 2008
5,559
1,947
I was not talking about options. Germans have been skimping on these for years. I was referring to comparing when they actually have the same options. We know you can get any car that's cheaper than a German, that's a given. But when you say well this Lexus IS has leather and it's the same or identical quality of real leather found in the A4/3-Series/C-Class, it's a noticeable difference. Did a customer buy that leather in the German car for a lot more than that of the Lexus? Absolutely. You can argue that you get more value in the Lexus than a German but don't say the quality is the same.

I wasn't talking about options either, I'll agree the Germans have been ripping people off for years where options are concerned - fools buying $50k lot junk in 2014 with halogen headlights.

But your belief that you're getting better quality in the German cars is just a remnant of the marketing machine making you think you are. German quality with the exception of a few pieces here and there isn't really any better than anyone else's. I say this as a current German car owner and owner of 4 German cars in total.

Like I said - look at BMW's Dakota leather, it's junk.

I would hold up a Lexus to a bimmer any day. The quality, leather, or what ever is as good or better than bmw. Value, Lexus blows bmw away, and resale, well you already know who wins there.

Oh, and the "free" maintenence bimmer gives you, thats a joke, you pay for that upfront when you buy the car.

Not a fan of Lexus, but these are true statements.
 

quagmire

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2004
6,984
2,488
I was not talking about options. Germans have been skimping on these for years. I was referring to comparing when they actually have the same options. We know you can get any car that's cheaper than a German, that's a given. But when you say well this Lexus IS has leather and it's the same or identical quality of real leather found in the A4/3-Series/C-Class, it's a noticeable difference. Did a customer buy that leather in the German car for a lot more than that of the Lexus? Absolutely. You can argue that you get more value in the Lexus than a German but don't say the quality is the same.

I was always meh in regards to my dads 3 series. They were always function over form in design and the quality of materials were decent. When we drove the Lexus IS back in 2007 when it came out, I found the quality of materials to be better. But then again that has been Lexus's mission statement. In my mind, Lexus is about luxury and reliability and BMW is about driving dynamics( luxury comes second). Even though the latest IS drives very well, Lexus still isn't a brand I would turn towards for driving excitement( though out of the Japanese luxury brands, they are the best).

BMW has gotten soft in recent years, Audi has sold people on AWD, but you still get the bad handling tendencies at the limit( understeer, etc), and Mercedes to me is also about luxury than driving dynamics.

IMHO, I find the interior of the ATS to be better than the 3 series. The new C Class looks good, but not a fan of that nav screen( seriously who thought the tablet like design was a good trait? Makes it look like an afterthought).

I would hold up a Lexus to a bimmer any day. The quality, leather, or what ever is as good or better than bmw. Value, Lexus blows bmw away, and resale, well you already know who wins there.

Oh, and the "free" maintenence bimmer gives you, thats a joke, you pay for that upfront when you buy the car.

Resale is a bonus point to me, not a decision maker. I will buy the car I like best. Will not settle on a car that I have to live with for a few years just because it has a better resale value.

Pay up front and on the backend after the maintenance program ends. The BMW dealership wanted $2000 for a battery change on my dads old E90......
 

iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
4,925
479
Toronto, Ontario
Resale is a bonus point to me, not a decision maker. I will buy the car I like best. Will not settle on a car that I have to live with for a few years just because it has a better resale value.

I agree but I was never one of those people who worried about getting rid of a car right after warranty ends or worries too much about what may happen to a car. I'm not going to settle for a car I feel is less enjoyable because of things I've read on the internet. People have their preference and I respect that but if I were scared to own a German car because of all the horror stories I've read online, I wouldn't have the good fortune of driving and/or owning an E46, E90 and R56 MINI.

As for my earlier comment with regards to quality, it doesn't matter what marque it is whether it be BMW, Mercedes or Audi, The Germans to me had better quality overall regardless of model. The only thing the Japanese may have over the Germans is reliability but I wouldn't know since I haven't had any problems with ownership even with the MINI which the internet loves to criticize in terms of reliability.

To each their own, you buy what you love and what you can afford.
 
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D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,467
Vilano Beach, FL

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determined09

macrumors 65816
Jun 9, 2009
1,454
312
Is it true if you put more than 1,000 dollar as a down payment , it goes straight into the car salesperson's pocket and not toward purchase price of your car ?
Thank you
 

marshallbedsaul

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2007
892
72
Utah
The quality in German cars has been on the decline for years while they ride their marketing machine.

Dakota leather? Can't tell the difference between it and leatherette.

I'm always perplexed by the way forum members on German sites always talk about build quality this, fit and finish that, when in reality these are the same people that refuse to own the car out of warranty because they know it will fall apart. Doesn't seem like good quality if it falls apart as soon as the warranty is over. The quality and better engineered car is the one that lasts, not the $60k one with debatably better interior plastics that is sitting on the side of the road in limp mode.

in the last four years I have owned 2 subarus(2005 sit,2013 sit) along side 2 bmw(2006 330I,2011 335I)
I can definitely tell a difference between the leather used by both companies. Bmw having a huge edge in terms of comfort and leather quality.
Also out of warranty my 2006 330I was at 130k when I traded it in., and thats far out of warranty. Zero issues for 60k daily driven miles.
Both of my STi's had zero issues as well, aside from the crappy factory tires.
I love cars and in my experience I've learned take care of your cars, and they will take care of you. German vs JDM is night and day and if you pay a few more for the performance model in each. They have an even trade off., my 335I is my current car and love love love. But when my 2015 STI shows up I will be rather happy. Subaru has finally caught up with creature comforts and a few lux, items with the Germans.

----------

Is it true if you put more than 1,000 dollar as a down payment , it goes straight into the car salesperson's pocket and not toward purchase price of your car ?
Thank you

lol wut???? I put 18,000.00 down on my 2013 STI and it all went to my car., and my apr rate was 1.6%. Not exactly sure how you say the sales guy has my 18k. My balance at time of trade showed otherwise.(after 9 months i only owed 10k lol)
 

determined09

macrumors 65816
Jun 9, 2009
1,454
312
No. Where on earth did you hear that?

My co worker. Thank you. I thought that her answer was a little weird at the time that she told me this.

----------

in the last four years I have owned 2 subarus(2005 sit,2013 sit) along side 2 bmw(2006 330I,2011 335I)
I can definitely tell a difference between the leather used by both companies. Bmw having a huge edge in terms of comfort and leather quality.
Also out of warranty my 2006 330I was at 130k when I traded it in., and thats far out of warranty. Zero issues for 60k daily driven miles.
Both of my STi's had zero issues as well, aside from the crappy factory tires.
I love cars and in my experience I've learned take care of your cars, and they will take care of you. German vs JDM is night and day and if you pay a few more for the performance model in each. They have an even trade off., my 335I is my current car and love love love. But when my 2015 STI shows up I will be rather happy. Subaru has finally caught up with creature comforts and a few lux, items with the Germans.

----------



lol wut???? I put 18,000.00 down on my 2013 STI and it all went to my car., and my apr rate was 1.6%. Not exactly sure how you say the sales guy has my 18k. My balance at time of trade showed otherwise.(after 9 months i only owed 10k lol)
Thank you for clearing that up for me
 

yg17

macrumors Pentium
Aug 1, 2004
15,028
3,003
St. Louis, MO
But when my 2015 STI shows up I will be rather happy.

You will. I have a 2015 WRX and love it. I bet the STI would be even more fun.

My co worker. Thank you. I thought that her answer was a little weird at the time that she told me this.

If that actually happened to her, saying she got screwed would be the understatement of the year.
 
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