Update on the Taurus: did the suspension work this weekend. 4 all new struts. She's indeed a happy car again. The strut pictured was the front right one.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
The Car Thread ... !
- Thread starter D.T.
- Start date
-
- Tags
- car
- Sort by reaction score
I think the TL/TLX, MDX are the most popular Acura models in the last 20 years. Acura also offers SH-AWD for a lot less than other manufacturers. To get a SH-AWD TLX is significantly less expensive than a quattro A4.
As far as the badge type stuff, I only spent $28k on my TSX when I bought it new. An Accord with the same options was actually more expensive. My frustration with Honda/Acura is they can't figure out anything exciting right now. Give me SH-AWD standard on more models and start providing performance models.
I think you hit on the main issue right there, and I don't know how Cadillac can ever overcome it. I cross shopped the ATS and CTS when I bought my 340i last year and although the cars were very nice and drive well, they just were not worth the same price as the comparable BMW models IMO. Now if you drop the Cadillac's price by 20% and lose that ugly wreath at both ends... we might have something to consider.
Does the upcoming 5-series replacement (G30) interest you? Should hit the dealers by the fall.
That's the main problem but I think people are ignoring the fact. Yes, the ATS benchmarked the E46 3er but what people are somewhat ignoring is that the ATS is not in a segment with just BMW. There's the A4, C-Class and the IS. Just because the ATS wins a few comparisons against the 3er doesn't mean it should shoot straight up the segment. Ok, you're better than the 3er, well there's the A4 and the C-Class that you could also spend money on - there's just too many factors at play here and maybe it's too much for Cadillac to overcome but right now, whatever they've done is just not working. If you think the 3er is the worst in the group, the W205 C-Class and the new B9 A4 are reasons enough why someone would pick those over the ATS and you're delusional if you think it comes down to badge.
I'm actually in love with the new C'er... It's easier better looking than the S and the E... The material quality is actually second to none when it comes to German cars.. My opinion.. My problem is I'm a big guy and can't fit in it at all.
Going back to Cadillac... The Escalade is honestly the only Car that's making Money in the Cadillac lineup... Cadillac also just released the XT5 which appear a success at the moment.. Going to be interesting to see the of year sales. Cadillac also developing another SUV that slots between the XT5 and Escalade and there gonna be V versions as well
A 4.2L twin turbo V8 is going in the XT5 and CTS as well... I think Cadillac is really gonna nail it in the next 3-5 years because apparently... The got the chassis and the Powertrains right... All they gotta do is improve on interiors and infotainment... For what GM has done so far... Thats not hard
It may or may not. We don't know but I think a lot of people who were supporting Cadillac's "revival" expected them to be in a lot better position they're currently in but if anything, you could see them as being in the same position or even worse given the amount of resources they put into changing their brand.
It's almost unfair to Cadillac because they are fighting a huge uphill battle. In this segment, people are looking for:
- Performance
- Appearance/aesthetics
- Pricing
- Brand appeal
The brand association is definitely an issue for Cadillac. Just like Buick. Buick could make the best car in the world but Americans under the age of 70 won't buy it as it too is associated with old people. My idea has always been to just start a new brand with a new image. GM's nostalgia for these brands seems to inhibit this though.
I haven't looked much into the G30 5-series. I probably should do some reading on it though.
I know for me, if the G30 is just a newer F10, I will have absolutely no interest in it. The performance/drive of the F10 is the only faulting what would have otherwise been an outstanding car. Steering sucked and the weight made it even worse. The G30 is expected to take some of that cool tech from the G11 7er, which doesn't quite excite me, but with the G30 using CFRP, I'm hoping BMW did some chassis magic to make it feel a lighter than it is going to be.
It's absolutely the badge to a lot of people. Why did people buy the iPod, iPhone, etc? Because of the Apple image, the fact it was the thing to do if you wanted to be perceived as cool, hip, whatever. Now people won't buy crap just for the badge, but they'll take brands that have the image and then pick the best one for them. BMW is marketed as the ultimate driving machine. How many of them actually care how well the BMW drives? Only the minority. C&D, MT, enthusiasts, etc can cry and moan how BMW is losing their way because how much softer their cars have gotten, but for the most part, the vast majority of people don't care. They are there for the image. It's cool to buy German. If they don't like the BMW, they'll go Mercedes/Audi and still have that image they desire.
You just had Weasel say he liked the Cadillac's, but wouldn't pay the same price for it as a BMW. Was it because he liked the 340i better than the ATS? Given the quote he was replying to, the only reason why he wouldn't spend BMW money on the ATS is because of Cadillac's image. Not because of the car itself being inferior. Now I am assuming that and if he wants to explain more, he can. Just given the context of his reply, I assume it was due to Cadillac's image that he didn't think it was worth paying the same price for the Cadillac vs the BMW.
For me, I just want the best car available that appeal to me. No doubt I have my biases as everyone knows already. I do tend to like GM's products. I much prefer the Camaro's styling to the Mustang's, but I still like the Mustang's stylings. Now I will give the Mustang GT a test drive when it comes time to buy and I will choose which one is best for me and what I want in a car. I won't be buying a Camaro because I want that red neck with a rat tail image. I could care less what image they have of the Camaro or of me buying a Camaro. It's not their car.
But people are image driven. It's why the CLA, 320i, etc exist. Just for those people who want to say they own a BMW, Mercedes, etc. if you had people that cared, you would see more 340i's, C350's, etc. But most are the lease specials( 320i's or close to base 328i's). I consider that a sad thing, but it's their thing.
Last edited:
You're absolutely right, for the majority it's about the badge and nothing more but for the sake of this discussion, we're all familiar with cars. If we remove the badges, the underlying car is still there. Without the 3-pointed star, that C-Class is still a better car overall. If we take the discussion a bit further, even if a person only cars about the badge, I'm sure they're aware of the design and luxury features of the C-Class and know its better even though all they care about is flaunting the badge.
I don't know what the prospective buyer is thinking so I don't try to assume that all they care about is the badge. I look at the cars in the segment and I can easily see why given all the variables, the ATS has a hard time selling.
The C-Class is a good car. But Mercedes is more of a luxury cruiser and I can't stand the tablet look. I am definitely a performance oriented person. That leaves BMW/Audi. Now I own cars long term and I know how much it is to maintain at least BMW's if you can't do the work yourself once out of warranty. It gets ridiculous. Why I wouldn't want to OWN a BMW/Audi. The Lexus IS is also a very good driver, but I can't live with its styling.
Now I look at the ATS. It drives better than the 3 series, I actually like the styling of the interior, think the quality of the materials are up there with BMW, Mercedes, Audi( build quality is another thing), I can use CUE with no issues and can deal with its downsides, and it should be the cheaper to maintain in the long run. And once you do load these cars up with options, the prices do start to separate and the ATS can be had for less money. It's why I would go for the ATS and did steer my dad into one when it came time to replace the E90. And the build quality on his is good. None of the issues others have posted about. It's got an odd software glitch with CUE, but my dad doesn't have the time or ability to leave his iPhone with the dealer to have them diagnose and fix it. It's an inconvenience thing more than a huge issue that needs to be dealt with ASAP. Should it be happening? No, but at the same time, it's a minor issue.
What GM needs to work on is consistency. Like I said, my dads ATS's build quality is good. But I know of others that has had issues( but have to remember forums are places that will be dominated by issues vs happy customers). They need to get it down where most people's build quality is the same or even better than my dads ATS.
Last edited:
I'm not sure I agree. The Audi/BMW/Mercedes outsell the ATS because they're all better overall cars. Build quality + interior materials are significantly worse (ill-fitting panels, cheap feeling leather, the hideous black plastic waterfall dash, etc), the back seats are cramped for adults, and the truck is much smaller than the Germans. Not to mention, their technology (especially iDrive and MMI) are far superior to anything Cadillac has right now.
The gauge cluster from the ATS deserves to be in a Cobalt, not a near-$50k luxury car.
They are/have:
-more spacious
-more comfortable
-better build quality
-feel higher quality (leather, soft plastics, etc)
-have better technology (Virtual Cockpit, etc)
-better resale
-better performance (Both the 2.0T and 3.6L don't hold a candle to the BMW 2.0T or 3.0T)
-better dealer experience
Yes, no one is arguing that the ATS doesn't drive well... but that's the only thing going for it. The Cadillac ATS (or Jaguar XE) would outsell everyone else if that's all people cared about. I don't completely agree with the "oh, the badge is better, so that's why they sell" excuse. If it were a truly great product, the market would've responded with better sales.
Look at Hyundai/Kia. They have been meticulously building their image. Cadillac isn't doing that. They're jumped in head first and are like "hey guys, we're going to charge German prices for our cars."
Even if we completely ignored the 3 series, the C/A4 still offer compelling reasons to buy them. And at that point, I'm still ignoring the Lexus IS. Another compelling car (albeit, quite cramped also)
Last edited:
The instrument cluster is cheap and doesn't belong in a luxury car, I'll agree with you on that. Question is how many cross shop the "lower" brands with Germans. My bet would be not many. I bet many just cross shop the Germans and Lexus.
But many who are image driven, won't consider Cadillac due to the poor image. We're in the minority. Majority will go to brands with good images.
Err, I'll take your word for it. As I said, I don't see Acuras much here, but I suppose AWD and Acuras in general are popular in the midwest. Honda's last exciting car was the high revving S2000. Years ago before YouTube, someone said it sounded a bit like a F355. I was inclined to agree at the time.
Just saw a review of the ATS Coupé, and i have to wonder what the designers were thinking. Couldn't see myself living with that interior/infotainment system.
For some weird reason, the ATS coupé looks quite dated to me already. The sedan is better looking.
The Lexus RC coupé is a mess. I think the C coupé is the looker in this segment
Side note, Autogefuhl reviews are fantastic. Thomas does a great job!
Last edited:
Ugh..... Stop pounding on the HVAC controls. They are capacitive touch and that is why you have the haptic feedback.....
I swear reviewers just cling on something to hate on..... CUE isn't perfect by any means, but for freak sake.... The media bitched about iDrive at first. I never had any issues with the first gen of it. Now they want to bash on CUE when they are the ones being idiots. The metal accents are just that, accents! At least this reviewer got that right. Most reviewers I see bashing CUE show them pressing the metal accents. If you're going to complain about the system, at least show you know what you're complaining about and not look like an idiot.....
How can these people operate their iPhone's and Android phones with ease, but can't transfer the knowledge of what to do with a capacitive touch interface to the car.....
/rant
Last edited:
Germans are at the forefront. Lexus is a safe choice, even it means getting slightly older tech. I believe Lexus still follows the development plan scheme from the old LS, which began development in 1984, IIRC.
The SH-AWD is pretty great, honestly, but the price is pretty steep. A top of the line TLX is super nice and cheaper than its equivalent competitor. They're all over the place down here.
Far and away, though, you see mostly MDXs
For some weird reason, the ATS coupé looks quite dated to me already. The sedan is better looking.
That's because it's a boxier style of the mid 2000s Cadillacs.
They should've put SH-AWD into the current-gen RDX. The first-gen one actually handled quite well back in the day. And they should have an AWD ILX because both the CLA and A3 have it.
Acura completely squandered away SH-AWD. It should've gone into every car and they should've made fast versions of their models too. Look at all the success Subaru and Audi have had marketing their AWD systems.
For some weird reason, the ATS coupé looks quite dated to me already. The sedan is better looking.
The Lexus RC coupé is a mess. I think the C coupé is the looker in this segment
Side note, Autogefuhl reviews are fantastic. Thomas does a great job!
It's the character lines (side crease). BMW and Mercedes do it the best which is why I'm always attracted to their designs. Audi falls into the same problem with the ATS in that the character line is too soft and not defined so when you look at the car at different views, it looks very ordinary and boring.
Its not the controls itself, its the execution. If you're gonna do capacitive, then better make sure its response times are instantaneous (haptic or not) otherwise stick to buttons and knobs. Also if you want people touching your instrument panel, maybe you don't go for piano black/glossy plastic. Although Caddy isn't the only culprit here.
Current Lexus designs are too 'busy'. The grill is a crime, screams trying too hard for attention. Its a design that works in Asia but not really in Europe or America. But hopefully they refine it and reach an acceptable level.
Last edited: