The Car Thread ... !

[bunnspecial]

Yeah, all of this is so true. Even a loaded Civic has stuff like heated rear seats. Those were only luxury car features a few years ago.

The Mazda 6 looks like a much more expensive car.

"Shifting the goalposts" so to speak has been a continuous thing in the luxury car market for ages, and let's face it it's hard to avoid as technology becomes more advanced.

I think back to something like the 1960s Lincoln Continentals, which I think would be hard to argue were NOT luxury cars. Back then, paying for a luxury car got you:

1. Air conditioning(you pretty much have to custom order a car without it now)

2. Standard automatic transmission(once again, pretty much the only thing without an automatic now is either a sports-oriented car or an ordered low end model)

3. A really big, freaking huge engine(who cares about the cost of gas when it's $.10/gallon and you're spending that much on the car, plus you want loads of torque so you can cruise down the interstate in your boat with no effort)

4. Power windows-again hard to NOT find now

5. On the convertible versions, a powered convertible top(few convertibles don't have that now)

There were a bunch of little things, but those are the ones that come to mind.

Fast forward 20-30 years, and now all of the above is pretty widely standard equipment. A luxury car gets you heated powered seats and maybe something like a basic trip computer.

10 years ago, you started getting electronic infotainment systems, and again those are making their way into low end cars.

 

[0388631]

That Camry looks great. Congratulations on the purchase. Toyota is really putting in an effort to make their cars more appealing to all age ranges, and not necessarily the middle class family who are as interesting as a box of saltine crackers, like they were for a long time. The interior looks good as well. I think we're going to see more Camrys on the road in the next 10 years where we saw Accords dominate over Camrys. All I've heard about the newer Accords and other Hondas is the horrible CVT leaving potential buyers annoyed. Honda really shot themselves in the foot. This is Toyota's chance to shine again, providing they don't fudge it up. Sportier cars, sound dampening, trickle down luxury from the Land Cruiser, better suspension, better/powerful engine that displays the same MPG rating or better, etc.

Imagine a Prius with total system power of around 300 HP and exhibiting 60 MPG in city and 75-80 MPG highway. Hell, I would buy a Prius then.

Yeah, all of this is so true. Even a loaded Civic has stuff like heated rear seats. Those were only luxury car features a few years ago.

Trickle down effect. Volvo was innovative in the early 80s too. They had heated seats, too, and they still work fine today. Granted then's Volvos were more reliable and better than they are now, provided you're into land yachts.

 

[2298754]

think we're going to see more Camrys on the road in the next 10 years where we saw Accords dominate over Camrys.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/01/toyota-camry-best-selling-car-america-14-years-2002-2015.html

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/p/january-2016-ytd-best-selling-vehicles.html

The Toyota Camry has been the best selling car in the US for the last ~14 years...

 

[0388631]

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/01/toyota-camry-best-selling-car-america-14-years-2002-2015.html

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/p/january-2016-ytd-best-selling-vehicles.html

The Toyota Camry has been the best selling car in the US for the last ~14 years...

I meant more than you do now. I'll admit to being out of touch with the typical middle class family, but I see more families reaching for a 4 dr Accord, simply because it was the better car and Honda had an incredible marketing game on the west coast. For most of the 1990s and early 2000s, Camry's were in abundance. The XV30 turned a lot of people away from the brand because of its design, and these people went to Honda. The accord at the time was very good looking. Some went to Mazda and down the line likely regretted their decision. The Accord has great styling, but if you want a traditional auto, you need to get their highest model, which means loaded to the gills. Which, honestly, isn't a bad investment. An Accord, especially in a traditional auto if CVT keeps up with the company, will have better resale value than a Mazda and similar if not better than a Camry. Toyota has a nice little chart on their Camry page that leaves a lot to desire; it doesn't exactly convince you to get a Camry over an Altima, or an Accord or a Hyundai. Though I can't imagine anyone wanting to purchase a Nissan over any of those.


Oh, yes, I forgot to mention this. Had a test drive yesterday morning in the new E before going into work. I liked it a lot. Ride's smoother than what I remember of our W212. Quieter, steering is much lighter and doesn't inspire too much confidence in busy streets with idiots yanking their doors open, not all too powerful. Then again it's a 4 cyl car, but great for city driving. I didn't get the play with the car much, but I did like it. The tablets were strange. MBZ improved cabin isolation a little and that put a smile on my face. The dealer also had a couple of those AMG GTs in for show/sale. As it's my regular dealer (wow, that sounds like I have a drug habit), he offered a test drive on those but I passed as I had to get to work. I did touch it here and there to get a feel for it. Very nice car, very. Definitely a good mid-life crisis car, but even then, I'd be inclined to get something from the 911 family of cars.

 

[bunnspecial]

One has to bear in mind that I grew up ~20 miles from the main Camry plant in the world and went to college ~2 miles from there, but Camrys have ALWAYS outnumbered Accords in huge amounts here.

For folks wanting something a bit more upscale around here, the Avalon(which doesn't get discussed much here) is quite common too, but then our plant is the only place in the world where that model is built. When I was in college, Toyota gave our president a new Avalon every other year. The governor who "signed the deal" to get the plant here in the 80s was on staff at the college and also on the BOD-she also got a free Avalon every other year .

 

[AustinIllini]

That Camry looks great. Congratulations on the purchase. Toyota is really putting in an effort to make their cars more appealing to all age ranges, and not necessarily the middle class family who are as interesting as a box of saltine crackers, like they were for a long time. The interior looks good as well. I think we're going to see more Camrys on the road in the next 10 years where we saw Accords dominate over Camrys. All I've heard about the newer Accords and other Hondas is the horrible CVT leaving potential buyers annoyed. Honda really shot themselves in the foot. This is Toyota's chance to shine again, providing they don't fudge it up. Sportier cars, sound dampening, trickle down luxury from the Land Cruiser, better suspension, better/powerful engine that displays the same MPG rating or better, etc.

Imagine a Prius with total system power of around 300 HP and exhibiting 60 MPG in city and 75-80 MPG highway. Hell, I would buy a Prius then.



Trickle down effect. Volvo was innovative in the early 80s too. They had heated seats, too, and they still work fine today. Granted then's Volvos were more reliable and better than they are now, provided you're into land yachts.

You can get an Accord coupe with a Manual and as a coupe, which is incredible, but the rest of them are CVTs, which kind of suck.

 

[0388631]

That was my point. You either pay a premium for a not-so premium car or you get a manual. I love manual, don't get me wrong, but I hated driving the last time I owned a manual unless I was on open roads. Anyway, on the Avalon front, I can't comment on the car other than I drove what I think was a 99 or 00 a very long time ago. I did borrow a 1st generation Solara back in 02 for about a week from a relative when they were out of the country. Fine ride from what I recall. It was the V6 model and it was nice to drive. It ate gas though. Either that or I had a lead foot then.


Edit: I'm surprised you haven't recommended people buy an Acura instead.

 

[Alphazoid]

Most base cars in Europe are manual. Auto is usually a higher trim option. Probably because most people pass their driving tests with a manual (myself included) and its usually women who opt to learn automatic cars from the get go.

 

[0388631]

Most base cars in Europe are manual. Auto is usually a higher trim option. Probably because most people pass their driving tests with a manual (myself included) and its usually women who opt to learn automatic cars from the get go.

Generally speaking, manuals were often standard on very cheap and or basic car models in the US. About 15 years ago, the 5 speed auto became standard. And now we're up to eight speeds. I know there's the ZF9, but that POS transmission isn't worth talking about. I believe certain European countries have a specific method of testing student drivers. Manuals in the US market are getting rarer in new offerings. Yes, there will always be purists, but eventually that will subside. Now, you can go onto YouTube and watch videos, then read the comments of how a 14 YO owns a GT-R and has banged the video poster's mother and sisters, and that his (see: Daddy's) GT-R will beat his 911 or whatever. Yeah, you could mate a manual with a car like a Ferrari provided you can find one or develop one that can handle all that power. And these so called purists, they'd probably crash the car because they'll slow shift or they're not very good. Fact is, the ZF8 application or a true DCT, will outperform any driver on the planet. Maybe not Ford's DCTs used in their main line because they're trash and it's a Ford. Unless it's that new hot hatch. Which also suffers from problems.

I think most people, even car enthusiasts, aren't aware how Lego'd cars are. The 911, for example, is a pirmo, creme de la creme automobile. A true sports car in which others are benchmarked against. When you tell these people ZF makes the 911's tranny and a similar one is available in the 911 Turbo/S, they'll laugh and say it's not. It is. ZF has a glorious history and there aren't many if any manufacturers that make their own transmissions. It's too expensive. The ZF8 comes in many flavors and handles more abuse than its rated for at various levels, and the ZF in the 911s, especially in the Turbo? Need I post the video of 50 back-to-back launches?

I had a plan going in with this post and clearly I've lost the thrust of this conversational exchange. My point is, manual will in 5 years cease to be an option on mid range and high end cars, globally. You're still going to see standards on cars 35K quid and under, though. And to highlight Austin's post, the trickle down of goods in cheaper cars is immense. I saw a TV ad for the Kia Cadenza. I was surprised at not only its price range, but also how good the damn thing looks. Buyer beware and all that, it's a good car for someone who's shopping in that range, and doesn't want typical Japanese fanfare. Though I'd advise that person to lease their Kia.

 

[bunnspecial]

Most base cars in Europe are manual. Auto is usually a higher trim option. Probably because most people pass their driving tests with a manual (myself included) and its usually women who opt to learn automatic cars from the get go.

Many lower end models in the US market do come standard with a manual, but they're hard enough to move that it's pretty uncommon to even find one on a dealer's lot. I was amazed a couple of months ago when a colleague was able to walk into a Honda dealership and buy a manual HRV off the lot. Another colleague bought a new pick-up truck a few months ago, and ended up buying the first automatic he's ever owned in his life-there were several reasons, but availability was one of the big ones.

In any case, I think that most people who are car guys(or ladies) in the US WANT to at least be able to drive a manual even if they don't own one. Many others see it as a waste of time especially since you have to concede that automatics are pretty darn good these days.

I look at my parents for an example-my dad learned on a manual and up through the early 90s could have probably counted on one hand the number of automatics he had(work travel necessitated him buying a new car every 12-18 months). His last daily driver manual was an '89 GMC G-15(Chevy S10) that he actually kept about three years and sold in '94. He then sold his Porsche in '99, and hasn't owned a manual since.

By contrast, my mom learned to drive an automatic and her first car-a '73 Camaro followed by several subsequent cars were autos. She bought a new '85 Toyota Corolla with a manual, and my dad had to drive it home from the dealership for her. They spent MANY evenings driving around the Sear's parking lot in town(the place where everyone use to go to learn to drive a manual-there are enough wide, flat surfaces with nothing to hit along with enough hills to throw in some challenges) and although she could do it never really got the hang of it. She finally sold the car, and hasn't even considered a manual since. She drove the Porsche a few times, but again could only do it well enough just to get it from one place to another.

I didn't learn to drive a manual until I bought one, and actually managed to teach myself. Yes, I suffered through my fair share of jumpy starts, squealing tires, missed shifts, and of course more stalls at stoplights than I care to count. I can recall one particular light that I would do my best to pace myself so I hit it green(or gun it through a yellow) just to avoid having to stop at it. It didn't take me THAT long to get completely comfortable, though.

The funny thing, though, was that when I mentioned thinking about the car to my parents, my mom's reaction was "Why on earth would you ever think about buying that?" My dad's reaction was "Well, we can spend some time driving it, but I think you'll really enjoy it once you get it." It turns out my dad was right.

 

[Alphazoid]

Even though i passed my test in manual i can count the number of times i've driven a manual since then and thats once. My ex-gf's 1-series had a manual transmission. Every car i've owned personally has been an automatic. I live in a city and the prospect of driving a manual during rush hour is not an attractive one.

Kia are quietly carving out their own niche. Cars a well equipped and rarely ugly. Their 7yr warranty and affordable service plans help too.

 

[0388631]

Speaking of the HRV... what the heck is it supposed to be. It's like a miniature cross over version of the CRV. I can only speak of the past, but Japanese manuals are much more forgiving to new shifters than American or European cars. Honda manuals in the past were even more forgiving than other Japanese cars. To be incredibly crude, you could have been the dumbest person on the planet but you'd end up learning how to drive stick in a Honda without messing up the car.
[doublepost=1472047277][/doublepost]

Kia are quietly carving out their own niche. Cars a well equipped and rarely ugly. Their 7yr warranty and affordable service plans help too.

Yes, non-transferrable though, right? Actually, don't Jaguar to 6 years/100K miles B2B warranties that include brake and rotors? IF I were a hooligan, I'd buy an F-Type and destroy that car if it was a no questions asked warranty. Or pick up an R variant second hand and lightly used and go wild with that car. Take the hit, but have a fun weekend car!

 

[Alphazoid]

Speaking of the HRV... what the heck is it supposed to be. It's like a miniature cross over version of the CRV. I can only speak of the past, but Japanese manuals are much more forgiving to new shifters than American or European cars. Honda manuals in the past were even more forgiving than other Japanese cars. To be incredibly crude, you could have been the dumbest person on the planet but you'd end up learning how to drive stick in a Honda without messing up the car.

Its basically Honda trying to sell something to those who don't like the CRV (since there are better options in the market). Honda's lost it, only their reputation is keeping them going. Their cars are just lacking in general and too niche. Their best seller the Civic is for young folk and the Jazz is for older folk. Nothing else in their line. The Accord is all but dead outside the US. The move to CVTs isn't helping either.

Yes, non-transferrable though, right? Actually, don't Jaguar to 6 years/100K miles B2B warranties that include brake and rotors? IF I were a hooligan, I'd buy an F-Type and destroy that car if it was a no questions asked warranty. Or pick up an R variant second hand and lightly used and go wild with that car. Take the hit, but have a fun weekend car!

Its transferrable.

Jag offer standard 3yrs here and then you can extend.

 

[D.T.]

Oh wow, the fall weather, aka, convertible weather is slowly creeping in. I like to think it's due to my slightly early fall beer consumption (see beer and wine thread ). So nice, and it was a big change, low 80s, a nice ocean breeze - convertibles give up a few things (over their hardtop counterparts), but when they work, it's hard to beat.

 

[Alphazoid]

Fun fact, i've never owned or even driven/been in a convertible. I should probably do something about that. Maybe when next I'm in Cali or Florida i'll rent one for 2 weeks.

 

[0388631]

Get a Murano convertible. It's all the rage in America.

 

[D.T.]

Fun fact, i've never owned or even driven/been in a convertible. I should probably do something about that. Maybe when next I'm in Cali or Florida i'll rent one for 2 weeks.

You definitely should. It's a pretty fun experience, and even options like targa roofs don't give you quite the same effect. If you're in Florida, come by and we'll go for a spin, take out some boards, fire up the grill

 

[bunnspecial]

I've actually found the top up with a zip-out rear window(open obviously) to make things tolerable in higher temperatures as long as I'm moving. Granted, old features like quarter vent windows get a LOT of air flowing.

I know a glass rear window has a LOT of advantages, but when temperatures go up the zip out plastic can be a lifesaver. You get a lot of airflow through the car while still getting sun shade from the top.

Granted, in the right weather, NOTHING beats top down driving.

 

[mscriv]

Congrats! Great car. I really like the grill on the SE version.

Cheers on the new car! Enjoy it in good health!

Sweet Camry! The SE Looks great!

That Camry looks great. Congratulations on the purchase. Toyota is really putting in an effort to make their cars more appealing to all age ranges, and not necessarily the middle class family who are as interesting as a box of saltine crackers, like they were for a long time. The interior looks good as well.

Thanks everyone.

@determined09, the grill on the SE that we got definitely looks better than what they are offering on some of the other packages. It's a bummer that here in TX we are required to have a front license plate which somewhat detracts from the look.

@Zenithal, the black interior with red stitching is really sharp and it is very comfortable on top of being visually appealing.

The thing I really don't get about the car is the sport driving mode where we can essentially turn our automatic transmission into a manual for driving purposes. I've owned "stick shift" automobiles in the past and so I am familiar with driving one, but I just can't fathom a situation in which I would want to change my automatic into a manual. Additionally, it feels really weird shifting without a clutch and so I don't really understand that feature, but hey, that's just me.

 

[D.T.]

Granted, in the right weather, NOTHING beats top down driving.

I'm picturing you and I, tops down, driving side by side ... holding hands ... on this road:

 

[grahamperrin]

"Shifting the goalposts" so to speak has been a continuous thing in the luxury car market for ages, …

1. Air conditioning
…

Yeah, when I last shopped for a car I really wanted another S124 Merc but it was surprisingly hard to find one with aircon (or easily serviceable aircon). Past experience: no aircon was a disincentive to me spending money on maintaining the vehicle. I ended up with a 2000 model that was dirt cheap and required a few hundred quid spent on the aircon (nearly more than I paid for the car) but I didn't mind the combined expense because the comfort encourages me to run the car for much longer.

 

[A.Goldberg]

t most likely is regional. I know American cars uses sensors too having been in a Toyota Venza recently. Speaking of Venza, i'm surprised Toyota killed it. Seemed like a decent car to me but oh well.

The Venza is/was a weird beast. It was supposed to be marketed towards young active parents (~30 YO's) cross shopping Subaru Outbacks. That failed so they tried to market it to the 55+ active community types. I think it did better there. I never thought it made sense in the lineup as the cost was much less than the highlander and it was kind of a modified RX interior.

 

[0388631]

The thing I really don't get about the car is the sport driving mode where we can essentially turn our automatic transmission into a manual for driving purposes. I've owned "stick shift" automobiles in the past and so I am familiar with driving one, but I just can't fathom a situation in which I would want to change my automatic into a manual. Additionally, it feels really weird shifting without a clutch and so I don't really understand that feature, but hey, that's just me.

Question: How much do you want to pay for brakes? The paddles started out in the mid 2000s and now are almost standard in every car. They replaced the 1,2,3 gears on the shift gate. Sure there's the + and - movement, often arranged in the incorrect manner, but this causes a driver to be distracted. I'm almost certain it's become a requirement among governments to throw in paddles on cars nowadays. Or buttons. The 1IS had buttons in the front and back of the steering wheel, IIRC.

 

[mscriv]

Question: How much do you want to pay for brakes? The paddles started out in the mid 2000s and now are almost standard in every car. They replaced the 1,2,3 gears on the shift gate. Sure there's the + and - movement, often arranged in the incorrect manner, but this causes a driver to be distracted. I'm almost certain it's become a requirement among governments to throw in paddles on cars nowadays. Or buttons. The 1IS had buttons in the front and back of the steering wheel, IIRC.

Don't get me wrong. I like the paddles, that's a neat feature and this is the first car I've ever owned that has them. The thing that throws me off is trying to simulate driving a manual transmission without having an actual clutch pedal that I can use in the driving process. Maybe I just haven't messed with the mode enough to really learn it properly, but it just feels weird not being able to actually put the car in neutral, i.e. press the clutch, and work through the gears.

In regards to asking about breaks, are you saying that if I use the sport mode it will save wear and tear on my brakes as opposed to just driving the car as a normal automatic?

 

[0388631]

Don't get me wrong. I like the paddles, that's a neat feature and this is the first car I've ever owned that has them. The thing that throws me off is trying to simulate driving a manual transmission without having an actual clutch pedal that I can use in the driving process. Maybe I just haven't messed with the mode enough to really learn it properly, but it just feels weird not being able to actually put the car in neutral, i.e. press the clutch, and work through the gears.

In regards to asking about breaks, are you saying that if I use the sport mode it will save wear and tear on my brakes as opposed to just driving the car as a normal automatic?

You haven't driven a DCT/PDK/MCT yet, I presume?

Down hill coasting. Easier to drive with paddles than manipulating gears using the shift gate. Cars did away with the general numbering years ago, paddles were an option then. Then they became pretty much standard.