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A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,549
9,715
Boston
I currently have a 2009 W211 E-Class. It's old, I know :) But yes I have a Mercedes and have been inside several different models and have to agree with you about Mercedes cars being more on the luxury and comfort side, even the C-Class looks great even though it's not labelled as a luxury car. But what do you mean by "I expect when the E-Class comes out that it will be impressive"? The 2015 model is already out. Do you mean next year's model?

Thank you, Cyberdude. I'm pretty sure the GL is great but I'm not thinking of buying at all. The base price is almost $100,000 here. No, It's just too pricey. To give you an idea of the kind of SUV I have in mind, for example: Chevrolet Tahoe, Nissan Patrol, Infiniti QX80, Toyota Land Cruiser, Ford Expedition, GMC Yukon.
I'm sorry what county are you in again? You mention the Nissan Patrol, so I know that would not be the US. I guess you probably have the choice of the small Land Cruiser and the big Land Cruiser (formerly called the Land Cruiser Amazon the last time I was in the UK). In the US there is no small Land Cruiser and instead we have a rebadged Lexus GX model. The full size LC also has the LX560 counterpart. All of which are nice cars. Personally I'd spend the extra money on the Land Cruiser and retain the retail value and get the good reliability vs Ford, Chevy, or Nissan/Infiniti.

Yes, I was referring to the 2016 E-Class. The 2015 is nice, but I have high expectations for what's to come next.

I imagine the C-Class is marked as a "sports sedan? Are you suggesting you wouldn't consider it luxury or buy it because it's not "labelled" a luxury car? You're buying a Mercedes- it has leather, it has fancy trim, it has more features than a normal car, and costs a lot more. It's not like a C-class is equivalent to a Toyota Corolla. I think it's semantics.
 

LadyX

macrumors 68020
Mar 4, 2012
2,374
252
The Car Thread ... !

I'm sorry what county are you in again? You mention the Nissan Patrol, so I know that would not be the US. I guess you probably have the choice of the small Land Cruiser and the big Land Cruiser (formerly called the Land Cruiser Amazon the last time I was in the UK). In the US there is no small Land Cruiser and instead we have a rebadged Lexus GX model. The full size LC also has the LX560 counterpart. All of which are nice cars. Personally I'd spend the extra money on the Land Cruiser and retain the retail value and get the good reliability vs Ford, Chevy, or Nissan/Infiniti.

Middle East. UAE.

Yes, I was referring to the 2016 E-Class. The 2015 is nice, but I have high expectations for what's to come next.

Yes, a few days ago I read about the 2016 model and the features to expect.


I imagine the C-Class is marked as a "sports sedan? Are you suggesting you wouldn't consider it luxury or buy it because it's not "labelled" a luxury car? You're buying a Mercedes- it has leather, it has fancy trim, it has more features than a normal car, and costs a lot more. It's not like a C-class is equivalent to a Toyota Corolla. I think it's semantics.

No, not at all. I never said that. The C-Class is marked as a "premium compact sedan" I think. But what I meant is, even though it's not a luxury car like the S-Class, it looks luxurious. I would go for the C-Class, but the E-Class' cabin is more spacious.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,549
9,715
Boston
Middle East. UAE.



Yes, a few days ago I read about the 2016 model and the features to expect.




No, not at all. I never said that. The C-Class is marked as a "premium compact sedan" I think. But what I meant is, even though it's not a luxury car like the S-Class, it looks luxurious. I would go for the C-Class, but the E-Class' cabin is more spacious.

If you're going to buy new, I would wait and get the 2016. Or buy a new 2015 when the 2016 comes out and save some money. (referring to E-Class)

Premium = Luxury. I agree, though the C-Class is small. I haven't been in the newest version but the older ones were tiny. My ex girlfriend had a 2008 C300 4Matic and I wasn't much of a fan. They tried to make the car sportier by tightening up the suspension from the previous version and the ride was unbearably harsh IMO. Like the older versions, they cheeped out in a lot of areas as well. Lastly, the car just seemed overly heavy and I expected a little more power. I have yet to drive a new C but I am hoping they fixed the suspension.
 
Last edited:

iLog.Genius

macrumors 601
Feb 24, 2009
4,925
479
Toronto, Ontario
If you're going to buy new, I would wait and get the 2016. Or buy a new 2015 when the 2016 comes out and save some money.

Lastly, the car just seemed overly heavy and I expected a little more power. I have yet to drive a new C but I am hoping they fixed the suspension.

By the reviews, looks like they did. Mercedes isn't even pretending to be sporty this time around. The ride is a lot more compliant and drives the way a Mercedes should (I guess Mercedes owners know what this should be). Those hoping/looking for a drive similar to the ATS/3-Series need not apply.
 

cyb3rdud3

macrumors 601
Jun 22, 2014
4,048
2,724
UK
I currently have a 2009 W211 E-Class. It's old, I know :) But yes I have a Mercedes and have been inside several different models and have to agree with you about Mercedes cars being more on the luxury and comfort side, even the C-Class looks great even though it's not labelled as a luxury car. But what do you mean by "I expect when the E-Class comes out that it will be impressive"? The 2015 model is already out. Do you mean next year's model?



Thank you, Cyberdude. I'm pretty sure the GL is great but I'm not thinking of buying at all. The base price is almost $100,000 here. No, It's just too pricey. To give you an idea of the kind of SUV I have in mind, for example: Chevrolet Tahoe, Nissan Patrol, Infiniti QX80, Toyota Land Cruiser, Ford Expedition, GMC Yukon.


Yes it is a lot of money. I actually had a Nissan Patrol GR between 2000-2003. It was brilliant. In the UK they only did a 3.0 diesel and it wasn't a refined model. I would have preferred a petrol V8 like that is available in other territories. But otherwise it was great, driven it a lot through to Southern Europe. Very reliable as well.

However, luxury wise it just isn't there. Despite leather, aircon etc it just isn't that refined.
 

sdilley14

macrumors 65816
Feb 8, 2007
1,242
201
Mesa, AZ
I figured this would be a good thread for this question.

I'm starting to think about a new car purchase. It will likely happen around the beginning of 2016.

Right now I'm considering two cars - Lexus IS250 and Audi A4 - 2012 or newer.

I prefer the styling of the Lexus. I like the idea of having a strong V6 engine + AWD. And I'm a Toyota owner and have had great luck with my Camry, so a Lexus seems like a fairly natural "upward progression".

The Audi is similarly priced and similarly equipped. I've checked out a few comparison articles and most reviews seem to favor the A4. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of the styling of the A4, but it is pretty nice. It's more fuel efficient with the turbocharged 4 cylinder. However, every person that I've known that has owned an Audi has had some major mechincal issues with it at some point. I'm not sure if this will really be an issue or not. I would purchase something with 20k-30k miles and end up selling again around 60k miles most likely.

I'm a single guy, no kids, but I do have a (large) dog that I keep in the back seat, so 4 doors is pretty essential.

Driving pattern would be mostly city driving, 8 mile drive to and from work. I'm moving from WI to AZ, so weather shouldn't really be an issue (though it does still need to be either AWD or FWD, no RWD).

All things being equal - age, mileage, options, etc. - which would you pick?

I forgot to mention - I would also be open to Acura's in the same price range - $25k'ish, give or take a few $k.
 

MatthewLTL

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2015
1,684
18
Rochester, MN
I think you may have confused this video with a thermometer. Just because you edit the video and put in the comment that you misspoke about the temperature does not make me believe you any more. The record low in your city in the past 10 years was -26.

Most people in cold temperatures would just use an engine block heater. Maybe your car started because you hand no oil in it and all the metal contracted ;) (I'm being facetious here)

Seriously though, I'd be quite surprised you could start a car at -60 considering gasoline freezes between -50 and -40. If you use 50/50 antifreeze like most people, that freezes around -35 as well. Riddle me that one.
Ethenol doesn't freeze thats why law requires at minimum 10% ethenol. and I had a full tank, the fuller the tank the less likelyhood of it freezing, that's why they say never let your tank get below 1/2 in the winter, My Antifreeze was good until -40. When that video was made the car was still running on the factory coolant. It was also running on 4 year old oil (i believe) i changed the oil in 2012. Modern cars dont need block heaters, that is mostly used on fords since those never start when its more then -10F out. the car had a factory option for a block heater but i have yet to see a car newer than 1989 (other than a F.O.R.D) have a block heater. I don't think those are even an option on cars anymore

----------

I figured this would be a good thread for this question.

I'm starting to think about a new car purchase. It will likely happen around the beginning of 2016.

Right now I'm considering two cars - Lexus IS250 and Audi A4 - 2012 or newer.

I prefer the styling of the Lexus. I like the idea of having a strong V6 engine + AWD. And I'm a Toyota owner and have had great luck with my Camry, so a Lexus seems like a fairly natural "upward progression".

The Audi is similarly priced and similarly equipped. I've checked out a few comparison articles and most reviews seem to favor the A4. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of the styling of the A4, but it is pretty nice. It's more fuel efficient with the turbocharged 4 cylinder. However, every person that I've known that has owned an Audi has had some major mechincal issues with it at some point. I'm not sure if this will really be an issue or not. I would purchase something with 20k-30k miles and end up selling again around 60k miles most likely.

I'm a single guy, no kids, but I do have a (large) dog that I keep in the back seat, so 4 doors is pretty essential.

Driving pattern would be mostly city driving, 8 mile drive to and from work. I'm moving from WI to AZ, so weather shouldn't really be an issue (though it does still need to be either AWD or FWD, no RWD).

All things being equal - age, mileage, options, etc. - which would you pick?

I forgot to mention - I would also be open to Acura's in the same price range - $25k'ish, give or take a few $k.

I would go with the Audi (Volkswagen) over a Lexus because a Audi has a aftermarket for parts and service, Lexus' on the other hand have little to NO aftermarket at all which means most or ALL parts could only be bought from the dealer.
 

sdilley14

macrumors 65816
Feb 8, 2007
1,242
201
Mesa, AZ
Ethenol doesn't freeze thats why law requires at minimum 10% ethenol. and I had a full tank, the fuller the tank the less likelyhood of it freezing, that's why they say never let your tank get below 1/2 in the winter, My Antifreeze was good until -40. When that video was made the car was still running on the factory coolant. It was also running on 4 year old oil (i believe) i changed the oil in 2012. Modern cars dont need block heaters, that is mostly used on fords since those never start when its more then -10F out. the car had a factory option for a block heater but i have yet to see a car newer than 1989 (other than a F.O.R.D) have a block heater. I don't think those are even an option on cars anymore

----------



I would go with the Audi (Volkswagen) over a Lexus because a Audi has a aftermarket for parts and service, Lexus' on the other hand have little to NO aftermarket at all which means most or ALL parts could only be bought from the dealer.

My biggest concern with German vehicles is reliability. I've heard so many people rail against their reliability. Many people saying they would never own a German vehicle without having a warranty on it. I've had such great luck owning Hondas and Toyotas...the last thing I want is a pretty car that always needs fixing.
 

2298754

Cancelled
Jun 21, 2010
4,890
941
Middle East. UAE.

Now it all makes sense.... :rolleyes:

----------

I figured this would be a good thread for this question.

I'm starting to think about a new car purchase. It will likely happen around the beginning of 2016.

Right now I'm considering two cars - Lexus IS250 and Audi A4 - 2012 or newer.

I prefer the styling of the Lexus. I like the idea of having a strong V6 engine + AWD. And I'm a Toyota owner and have had great luck with my Camry, so a Lexus seems like a fairly natural "upward progression".

The Audi is similarly priced and similarly equipped. I've checked out a few comparison articles and most reviews seem to favor the A4. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of the styling of the A4, but it is pretty nice. It's more fuel efficient with the turbocharged 4 cylinder. However, every person that I've known that has owned an Audi has had some major mechincal issues with it at some point. I'm not sure if this will really be an issue or not. I would purchase something with 20k-30k miles and end up selling again around 60k miles most likely.

I'm a single guy, no kids, but I do have a (large) dog that I keep in the back seat, so 4 doors is pretty essential.

Driving pattern would be mostly city driving, 8 mile drive to and from work. I'm moving from WI to AZ, so weather shouldn't really be an issue (though it does still need to be either AWD or FWD, no RWD).

All things being equal - age, mileage, options, etc. - which would you pick?

All things being equal, I'd highly suggest finding a Lexus IS or Audi A4 that is CPO. You want the extended warranty. Even though the Lexus might be more reliable, if anything breaks, it isn't cheap. You can't go wrong with either. I'm a huge Lexus fan and if I'm keeping this car for a long long time, I'd buy the IS. However, there is one huge problem with the IS. Interior space. It is tiny. And on the AWD model, there is a huge hump in the driver's footwell, which is unacceptable.

Since you're only gonna keep it until like 60k+ miles, you should have no issues with either really.

I forgot to mention - I would also be open to Acura's in the same price range - $25k'ish, give or take a few $k.

Not worth looking at fancy Hondas. Your other two choices (Lexus and Audi) are real luxury brands, not warmed over Hondas. If you really value outright reliability, no one beats Lexus. NO ONE.

----------

I would go with the Audi (Volkswagen) over a Lexus because a Audi has a aftermarket for parts and service, Lexus' on the other hand have little to NO aftermarket at all which means most or ALL parts could only be bought from the dealer.

What are you talking about? You can get Lexus parts pretty easily. Hell, most of the consumables are Toyota-labeled products that are sold EVERYWHERE.

----------

My biggest concern with German vehicles is reliability. I've heard so many people rail against their reliability. Many people saying they would never own a German vehicle without having a warranty on it. I've had such great luck owning Hondas and Toyotas...the last thing I want is a pretty car that always needs fixing.

It's overblown. The most recent Consumer Reports Reliability Study puts Audi above many Japanese brands, such as Acura and Infiniti. You should be fine, however if you want to keep this car for 100k+ miles, please get the Lexus.

I've owned almost a dozen German cars over the years and had no major issues. Nothing worth noting compared to the large number of Japanese cars I've owned also.
 

sdilley14

macrumors 65816
Feb 8, 2007
1,242
201
Mesa, AZ
Now it all makes sense.... :rolleyes:

----------



All things being equal, I'd highly suggest finding a Lexus IS or Audi A4 that is CPO. You want the extended warranty. Even though the Lexus might be more reliable, if anything breaks, it isn't cheap. You can't go wrong with either. I'm a huge Lexus fan and if I'm keeping this car for a long long time, I'd buy the IS. However, there is one huge problem with the IS. Interior space. It is tiny. And on the AWD model, there is a huge hump in the driver's footwell, which is unacceptable.

Since you're only gonna keep it until like 60k+ miles, you should have no issues with either really.



Not worth looking at fancy Hondas. Your other two choices (Lexus and Audi) are real luxury brands, not warmed over Hondas. If you really value outright reliability, no one beats Lexus. NO ONE.

----------



What are you talking about? You can get Lexus parts pretty easily. Hell, most of the consumables are Toyota-labeled products that are sold EVERYWHERE.

----------



It's overblown. The most recent Consumer Reports Reliability Study puts Audi above many Japanese brands, such as Acura and Infiniti. You should be fine, however if you want to keep this car for 100k+ miles, please get the Lexus.

I've owned almost a dozen German cars over the years and had no major issues. Nothing worth noting compared to the large number of Japanese cars I've owned also.

Thank you for the input!
 

MatthewLTL

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2015
1,684
18
Rochester, MN
Car Mod Questions....

Part of what I plan to do to my car this summer is getting LED Daytime Running Lights, aftermarket hubcaps, Switchback LEDs and Fog Lights.

Here is the plans.....

Install the DRLs below the headlights complete with the DRL Relay kit.
Install Switchback LEDs in the front parking/turn signal and in the Reverse Light area
Fog Lights wired to turn on with the parking lights

So here is where the question comes.....
What is a better option for Fogs Should i get the Aftermarket Fog kit (Daewoo specific) which uses Helogen H3 bulbs and comes complete with the Wiring harness, or should I get LED based fog lights? If I go the LED route I would get a second DRL Relay kit but wire this one to turn on with the parking lights (rather than with the car). If i go with the Helogen kit I will use the provided relay kit and wire it up so they turn on and off with the parking lights. (The parking lights will have Switchback LEDs so that when they are on they will be white rather than amber)

Does anyone know the Legality of rear Switchback LEDs?

This is how it would work in the rear:

I hack up the harness and put the 1157 socket in the hole for the reverse lights. How this will work is when the car is in reverse the lights will be white (and wired to the revers light wiring) however when the turn signals are activated the reverse lights will blink amber to the corresponding side.

Being that this does not prevent the reverse lights from functioning normally under the law I don't see the issue with it. Perhaps someone here knows better about Vehicle laws than I do....
 

2298754

Cancelled
Jun 21, 2010
4,890
941
Part of what I plan to do to my car this summer is getting LED Daytime Running Lights, aftermarket hubcaps, Switchback LEDs and Fog Lights.



Here is the plans.....



Install the DRLs below the headlights complete with the DRL Relay kit.

Install Switchback LEDs in the front parking/turn signal and in the Reverse Light area

Fog Lights wired to turn on with the parking lights



So here is where the question comes.....

What is a better option for Fogs Should i get the Aftermarket Fog kit (Daewoo specific) which uses Helogen H3 bulbs and comes complete with the Wiring harness, or should I get LED based fog lights? If I go the LED route I would get a second DRL Relay kit but wire this one to turn on with the parking lights (rather than with the car). If i go with the Helogen kit I will use the provided relay kit and wire it up so they turn on and off with the parking lights. (The parking lights will have Switchback LEDs so that when they are on they will be white rather than amber)



Does anyone know the Legality of rear Switchback LEDs?



This is how it would work in the rear:



I hack up the harness and put the 1157 socket in the hole for the reverse lights. How this will work is when the car is in reverse the lights will be white (and wired to the revers light wiring) however when the turn signals are activated the reverse lights will blink amber to the corresponding side.



Being that this does not prevent the reverse lights from functioning normally under the law I don't see the issue with it. Perhaps someone here knows better about Vehicle laws than I do....


Thanks for the input. LEDs on a Daowoo? Are you serious?
 

2298754

Cancelled
Jun 21, 2010
4,890
941
It was not input.... It was a question LED fogs or Helogen fogs.....


LEDs are the best! I love the white light. Also I'd suggest a drop in HID kit for maximum light output.

I'm thinking of putting 22s on my X5 and putting some ground effects with neon lights. What do yall think?
 

MatthewLTL

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2015
1,684
18
Rochester, MN
LEDs are the best! I love the white light. Also I'd suggest a drop in HID kit for maximum light output.

I'm thinking of putting 22s on my X5 and putting some ground effects with neon lights. What do yall think?

I actually thought of a HID kit. But I HATE HIDs all they do is blind other drivers.
 

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,467
Vilano Beach, FL
I actually thought of a HID kit. But I HATE HIDs all they do is blind other drivers.

Correctly implemented HIDs - i.e., OEM spec - are pretty fantastic (especially the adaptive configurations) ... but yeah, duct taping some out-of-spec purple spectrum HIDs onto a car without the proper supporting hardware, not so much :D

(That being said, I did do some aftermarket HIDs once, they worked well, didn't blind anyone, used very high quality reflectors, wiring components, etc.)
 

MatthewLTL

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2015
1,684
18
Rochester, MN
Correctly implemented HIDs - i.e., OEM spec - are pretty fantastic (especially the adaptive configurations) ... but yeah, duct taping some out-of-spec purple spectrum HIDs onto a car without the proper supporting hardware, not so much :D

(That being said, I did do some aftermarket HIDs once, they worked well, didn't blind anyone, used very high quality reflectors, wiring components, etc.)

People don't tend to like when people put aftermarket HIDs in OEM Helogen housings..... I'd use CREE LED headlights myself.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,549
9,715
Boston
Ethenol doesn't freeze thats why law requires at minimum 10% ethenol. and I had a full tank, the fuller the tank the less likelyhood of it freezing, that's why they say never let your tank get below 1/2 in the winter, My Antifreeze was good until -40. When that video was made the car was still running on the factory coolant. It was also running on 4 year old oil (i believe) i changed the oil in 2012. Modern cars dont need block heaters, that is mostly used on fords since those never start when its more then -10F out. the car had a factory option for a block heater but i have yet to see a car newer than 1989 (other than a F.O.R.D) have a block heater. I don't think those are even an
option on cars anymore

MatthewLTL,

Ok, I just spent probably an hour typing a response to this. I apologize for any mistakes, I don't really have the time to proof read it at the moment. I am not doing this to argue with you, rather honestly inform you primarily of what I perceive as terrible decisions on your part regarding your car. I also address some misconceptions you have. This is in the interest of you, your car, your bank account, and everything you rely on your car for.

I will say quickly, Daewoos are not indestructible and that no vehicle on earth is. They are all susceptible to problems if mistreated, and problems if maintained, but probably less and with less severity. Millions of cars have come before yours and mine to create recommendations on how to maintain you car. You seem to be blatantly ignoring them and then stating that your single experiences opposing the common recommendations proves universal truth in your findings.

It has become apparent in the PPC thread people specifically tell you not to do certain things, then you do, and then you have more issues. Or people tell you do something expecting a negative consequence otherwise, you ignore it, and then the expected occurs. This is just seems like another example of that.

If anyone notices anything wrong with anything I say I encourage them to correct me or add on. I have been educated and work in the pharmaceutical field which involves some chemistry. One my favorite professors and long term academic mentors was a chemist and an automotive enthusiast. I've learned a good deal about fundamental principals of cars design, operation, maintenance, and of course chemistry in this interesting manner. I have a passion for cars, understanding them, and doing as much work on my car as possible. (Unfortunately it's a BMW so there are a bunch of things that make it tough for someone without a fancy computer system to fix all the way).
No matter your specific preferences with maintenance items, ultimately I think we can all agree (except perhaps MatthewLTL ;)) that maintenance is better than no maintenance.

Additionally, none of the possible poor outcome scenarios listed below are an extreme stretch of the imagination. These are all problems that do occur in cars, even with proper maintenance. You seem like a handy person who would have no problem doing most any of this maintence.


So here we go...


1. Ethanol History:
Ethanol (EtOH) was added due to environmental legislation, not freezing issues. The idea was it replace "MTBE" (an additive to increase octane ratings) which was contaminating drinking water. EtOH also burns cleaner so and is technically better for the environment. It however does not create as much energy so you have to burn more of it, therefore inefficient, therefore controversial (EtOH is less efficient + more expensive to buy). If you're into conspiracies, which I bet you are, some say it was the governments way to artificially increase activity in the corn market and related industries. How it effects local and market economies is another story.

2. The Law:
The law is actually a MAXIMUM of 10% EtOH in gasoline*. The limitation is because of it's varying compatibility with the majority of existing engines. There is no federal mandate on minimum ethanol blends.You can still buy gas without Ethanol. It is called E0 or ethanol-free gas.

Presently there are only a handful states with active mandates (~6), and a couple of those only mandate 2% EtOH. I just checked for you MatthewLTL, Minnesota is one of these states with the mandate. This is probably why you think there is a minimum everywhere. But even these states have legal exceptions. For example in Minnesota:
So really, if you wanted to fill your car with it, there are ways around it, but unless you're racing I don't think anyone would take the effort because most people don't care. Depending on where you live there are more or less places to buy E0- (though rare) even in liberal places like CT, MA, and CA, it's available, often marketed as racing fuel. Less EtOH = more combustion energy = more power = better performance. As I understand, E0 may be more common in areas with lots of farming because a lot of farm equipment use carburetors and are not necessarily ethanol friendly.

3. Ethanol Properties:
Ethanol actually does freeze, but to fair at ridiculously low temperatures (alcohol off the top of my head is somewhere around -170). But just because it has a lower freezing point than pure gasoline does not mean it will drop the gas freezing point to the ethanol freezing point. Also consider that gasoline is not pure and contains impurities that can affect the freezing point (in either direction). In what we're talking about, water is usually the main impurity concerned because it separates from the gasoline and can freeze. This is why gas line antifreeze, often anhydrous methanol + maybe another water absorbing agent, is still used in parts of America with frigid climates... even in gas with 10% ethanol.

Ethanol is limited to 10% because it can be damaging to rubber products. More importantly it is corrosive to metals such as zinc, aluminum, and magnesium. Carburetors often contain these metals and are consequently damaged by EtOh, especially in higher concentrations. *E15 (15% Ethanol) has been approved for use in cars made after 2001, as vehicles manufactured prior have been proven to show premature damage in studies. E85 vehicles, those capable of running 85% EtOH, limit ethanol contact with zinc, aluminum, magnesium, or rubber to prevent damage from the high concentrations. I believe they also may have different fuel pump setups due to how EtOH conducts electricity vs gasoline. E15 under federal law can be sold to cars newer than 2001. Older vehicles than that have been shown to experience premature damage in studies. I've heard 20% ethanol is supposedly going to be available, perhaps mandated in places, but there is news about some legislatures wanting to decrease the amount of ethanol in gas as it is (politics, religion, social issue discussion anyone?)

4. An Alaskan Anecdote Involing The Hygroscopicity of Ethanol:
When I was in Alaska in 2012 I learned most their gas has no has EtOH. It could be because Alaska has few (if any?) corn crops, but it was explained to me that it is because ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs water. If too much water is absorbed a water-ethanol solution will separate from the gasoline and cause ignition issues, as water+ethanol does not explode. The ethanol, again, will promote corrosion. In cold climates (Alaska) the water will freeze and block fuel lines. Environmental/atmospheric water can be absorbed sitting in a tank underground at a station or in a storage facility. Note: after the phase separation, the water-ethanol solution will sink/the gasoline will rise to the top. If your getting old gas that has been sitting at bottom of the gas station's tank or you have been storing gas, it's possible to get some water got in there. Ethanol's hygroscopic properties are also why marine applications may prefer E0 given that a boat is surrounded by water and extremely damp air. Though some boats have fuel-water separators which H imagine would help with this). I'm not well versed in aviation but I vaguely know that pilots do have concerns w/EtOH, probably in regards to many of the same issues already discussed and something to do with the vapor pressure of ethanol also fluctuating with altitude changes potentially causing air bubbles and engine fuel starvation.

***The main point here is that not everywhere has ethanol in their fuel. Therefore, its freezing point is a higher temperature. So the irony is, having ethanol in fuel may prevent it from freezing if there is no water contamination. That said, if water is present in the correct amount, then the ethanol will cause phase separation and increase the likelihood of problems. Without ethanol, the freezing point of the gas is higher, therefore more likely to freeze and cause problems. In reality, most people in the US don't live in a climates with common or routine temperatures below 0.***

------------------
Volume II. Now to MatthewLTL's car more specifically (1998? Daewoo Lanos)... If you read anything, it should be this section.

5. Freezing Gas Tanks:
I think you mean "more full" rather than "fuller". The tank capacity has nothing to do with the freezing issue. Your gas lines will freeze far before the tank does. It's all about the surface area to volume ratio. In the case of a fuel line or pump, you have high surface area to low volume. More surface area = more contact with the cold exterior. A gas tank (assuming it's not super thin and flat, instead a boxier rectangular prism), would have low surface area to high volume... less surface area, less contact with the cold exterior. Catch my drift? Refer to the gas freezing scenarios above.

6. Engine Coolant Changes
If your Daewoo uses DexCool coolant like most GM vehicles, there are two types. I would guess you have the orange that recommends a change ever 150,000 miles (or every 5 years)... I think they mostly used this in the 90's but I don't know. I remember there is a lot of controversy with it recently because it becomes acidic well before the suggested change interval. I believe there was even a class action lawsuit. The other option you have is Green DexCool which is rated 2 years/30,000 miles. Or you may have another coolant, you can check it out.

In that your car is pretty old, you should change it considering that any past life antifreeze will become acidic and degrade rubber/plastic parts over time. With time, coolant's specific heat can also change (meaning it cannot effectively carry as much heat away from the engine- 1 aspect of this discussed in two paragraphs). Environmental contamination can also cause the coolant to become electrolytic and can/will also corrode all the copper and brass in the cooling system -water pump, heater core, radiator, and a maybe some fittings along the way. Corrosion leads to leaks, leaks leads to loss of fluid, loss of fluid leads to overheating, overheating can lead to severe engine damage. If you have an aluminum engine, overheating can often be catastrophic. In some cases, just one quick overheat can warp the metal and ruin the motor beyond practical repair.

I would again suggest replacing the coolant it at this point. It doesn't necessarily matter how miles you have, the aging process still occurs. If you really need to prove yourself to spend the $25 on premixed coolant test the pH of the existing coolant. Coolant is alkaline (basic). If I remember correctly usually the ideal pH is 9.5-10.5 and should replaced definitely be replaced if the pH goes below 8.3... but you should probably double check those figures.

7. Coolant to Water Ratio & Colligative Properties:
You should also consider engine coolant freezes around -40F WITH a 50/50 antifreeze/distilled water ratio (potentially lower, depending on what the antifreeze is composed of). Consider the fact that you haven't exactly maintained your cooling system and that you don't know what the true ratio is. It is expected some coolant would slowly be lost naturally through evaporation over the years and you, being super repsonsible checking your fluids regularly, topped it off with 50/50 coolant like the average savvy person. Let's assume the car came with a 50/50 mix, in evaporation you only will lose water, not the ethylene/polyethylene glycol ]. So that would mean as water is lost, the antifreeze concentration becomes higher than 50% (say 52/48). Then you add more 50/50 to top it off because of more evaporation. Then your concentration of antifreeze is even higher than 50% (say (54/46). Repeat this for the X-many years since your car was built and the fluid never changed, and the ratio becomes way out of proportion. While I imagine with normal loss through evaporation would be a negligible issue, over 17 years this might become a factor. Luckily coolant lost through the exhaust would however be lost at a proportional late. If not topping off with 50/50 coolant, just throwing in coolant guessing the amount or not mixing with water will throw of the balance.

The ultimate point I'm getting at is the the possibility of higher antifreeze concentration, the higher the freezing point. By comparison a 25/75 mixture will freeze at 10F, or a 32.5/67.5 at 0F (versus the -40 with 50/50)- that's pretty extreme! As you also might logically deduce, conversely, this would mean you have a higher coolant boiling point because of the higher proportion of coolant to water. Now you might understand your engine would be at greater risk of overheating or running an a non-optimal temperature (as boiling coolant is not effective at cooling the engine). I'm not saying has occurred to a catostrophic level (YET!) for sure but is just a future possibility to be aware of in that you live in a cold climate. Since you have never flushed the coolant, you have never reset the coolant/water ratio.

8. Oil Changes:
You should REALLY consider changing your oil more than every 4 years. Even if you drive a short distance, environmental exposure will decrease the viscosity, efficacy, pH of of the oil. Motor oil sitting in massive temperature fluctuations can change its viscosity over time (i.e. ~200F to -60F is pretty big). Oil also can become oxidized decreasing its efficacy. Extreme cold causes oil to permanently congeal and not flow as well throughout the engine. Motor oil + H20 creates acid that's not good for your engine. The last 3-4 points are especially true with non synthetic oil.

I know you say you don't drive on the highway or far away so I'm guessing you take a lot of short trips. One of the biggest problems of short trips is theydo not allow for oil contaminants to burn off. This is just asking for oil sludge issues. Additionally, if your oil never heats up all the way for long enough, it may rarely flow well through the engine, thus neglecting to properly lubricate all parts of the engine. Oil is cheap, especially if you just buy regular oil. An replacement engine is not. You might as well play it safe rather than potentially causing a catastrophic issue.

Both the Coolant and Oil changes are two things professional mechanics always comment on regarding "grandma cars"- old cars with low milage that may the maintenance they require based on miles driven, but time and aging of consumables is not taken into consideration.

9. Engine Block Heater:
I can easily agree modern cars are easier to start in the cold due to multiple factors. I can generalize here in New England engine block heaters (+fuel heaters) are primarily used on diesel engines due the nature of diesel in the cold. I've never heard anything about Ford specifically but this sounds like it could be one of your vast generalizations. What characteristic of Ford engines makes this the case?

If you live in a climate that gets to -60 then you definitely would have an engine block heater. (You on the other hand are living in a place that has no record of ever reaching -60F, let alone below -40F... or even -30F- and that was in the 70's.) I was told in Alaska to use an engine block heater if temps were around -20F or lower with gasoline. It could be higher or lower, I don't have much experience with regular use of them. The purpose of them is to heat the oil which becomes too vicious in cold weather. I looked at a residency program in Alaska (yes, that same 2012 trip) and everybody had them up there. Many people also had them when I visited Sweden as well. They are still an option on most cars as far as I can see. They are also available aftermarket. If you're living in a climate that doesn't get cold enough, you won't obviously won't see them because they're not necessary. In my entire life living winters between Mass, NY, and Conn I've only seen a few regular, gasoline cars with them (usually used cars or people who had moved)

10: Summary:
The reason you change fluids is because of a concept called "preventative maintenance". That logic is if you spend a little money here and there, you will have fewer catastrophic issues in the future. Again, none of these scenarios are particularly rare or out of the realm of possibility. Remember that the health of coolant can not really be determined visually. You can tell if oil is dirty or has coolant in it easily, but you can't reasonably measure it's viscosity or life.

BMW says I should get an oil change every 12 or 15k miles. But like I said, oil relatively cheap yet vital to the car. Spending a little extra money by changing the oil every 5,000 with full synthetic gives me better piece of mind. In the first 50,000 miles under warranty I'm sure the car does will survive with 15k mile intervals, but who knows long run. Funny story- I know a woman that divorced her husband and didn't change the oil in herbrand new (at the time) Volvo for almost 45,000 miles!!! The engine apparently had no real issues but did get a thorough sludge cleaning. She sold the car shortly after that after advisement from the mechanic (buyer beware!).
 
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A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,549
9,715
Boston
I would go with the Audi (Volkswagen) over a Lexus because a Audi has a aftermarket for parts and service, Lexus' on the other hand have little to NO aftermarket at all which means most or ALL parts could only be bought from the dealer.

I think you're right here but probably using the term "aftermarket parts" instead of "accessories" - add on things to improve styling or preformance vs replacements for existing parts. Lexus = Toyota = Scion. The Toyota brand alone was the best selling car brand in the World last (year as usual), selling nearly 30% more units than the #2 spot, Volkswagen alone. When it comes to replacing parts on a Toyota or Lexus there are zillions of aftermarket replacement parts, it's the best selling car, that's where the most customers are.

Toyota-Lexus-Scion does not make sports cars, they're not performance cars. Lexus is a pure luxury car, Toyota is a smooth riding economy car- people don't modify them. People don't generally upgrade their appearance or performance substantially to anywhere close to the extent of VW-Audi-Porsche products, which are innately sportier and more of drivers cars. Have you ever really seen any (or many) 'suped up", "modded" or "tuned" Lexus or really many Toyotas? And despite the fact Lexus builds AWD cars and SUVs, they're not really shown as "sport" or "activity" cars, that would be marketed with recreational accessories the same way an Audi, high end VWs, Volvo, Land Rover, Jeep, etc would be.

In terms of service... Growing up my mother had A6 Allroad from 2001-2005. It was an "electro-mechanical nightmare" (her words), most mechanics wouldn't touch it, and she traded it in for an XC90. In 2009 when her commute increased and gas went up, she bought a Lexus ES350. She had zero problems with it, literally. The maintenance was done at a Toyota dealer next to her office and it was pretty minimal and affordable. If it needed it, I'm sure nearly every mechanic would work on it since it's essentially a glorified Toyota Camry.

My biggest concern with German vehicles is reliability. I've heard so many people rail against their reliability. Many people saying they would never own a German vehicle without having a warranty on it. I've had such great luck owning Hondas and Toyotas...the last thing I want is a pretty car that always needs fixing.
It's a fair concern and justified concern. We've discussed it a lot in this thread. European (I'll extend beyond Germany) cars typically cost more to fix, have more problems, and have more complex solutions. That said, if you're looking for a premium drivers car, no one else builds a better car than Europe. Japan pumps out amazing products- well built, fantastic reliability, usually unmatched residual value, but the same level of driving quality, overall feel, and image has yet to be matched in my experience. America cars... Ehhhh no comment.

If your passionate about you car, value the advantages of Euro/German car, and don't dropping lots money into your car -or- are unfazed by generally more frequent, more costly repairs and the time you must take out of your day to fix them/get them fixed, then owning one won't be an too big of a nuisance. Some people think they're set because they have a warranty but then are traumatized by the fact they get stuck going to the dealer for repairs all the time. In the early thousands my dad sold his beloved 2 year old Range Rover he bought brand new because after 30,000 miles (still under warranty) he couldn't afford the time it spent in the repair shop. He still considers it one of his favorite cars he's ever owned. Despite that, his little little maneuver to dump it cost him about 50% in depreciation. If you want a buy it and forget it car, with some extra features, head in the Acura/Lexus/Infiniti direction. They're excellent cars in their own respects. It all comes down to what you value.

When I graduated college 2 years ago my dad graciously gave me his 2009 BMW 535xi (currently with nearly 90,000 miles). I like it as a car, its fun, but am always afraid of things going wrong and wondering how I'm going to get the car to the dealer and my ass to work and my other obligations. A couple weeks ago the battery died, which isn't 100% user replaceable due to the possible necessity of "reprogramming the battery" and requires special computer. Not reprogramming the battery apparently can cause big problems. The cost of the job- battery, installation, and reprogramming was just under $500.00, which absurd in my opinion. If you go back a few pages we had a lengthy discussion about German/Euro repair costs. The question is, do I like the car enough to put that kind of money into it for something so simple? The car is still in my dad's name, registered in my home state, and I'm under his insurance so luckily usually pays for the major repairs/maintenance. I haven't sought reimbursement on the battery. Affording life in a nice area of Boston near my work and a BMW is a lot for someone getting paid my lowly resident wage at the hospital. :(
 
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cyb3rdud3

macrumors 601
Jun 22, 2014
4,048
2,724
UK
It was not input.... It was a question LED fogs or Helogen fogs.....


They would need to be very warm light fogs for them to have any use. Cold white light will be pointless for fog lights and will not increase visibility.

I would have thought that repairing the useful features would make more sense opposed to putting aftermarket junk on that car.
 

takao

macrumors 68040
Dec 25, 2003
3,827
605
Dornbirn (Austria)
It's a fair concern and justified concern. We've discussed it a lot in this thread. European (I'll extend beyond Germany) cars typically cost more to fix, have more problems, and have more complex solutions. That said, if you're looking for a premium drivers car, no one else builds a better car than Europe. Japan pumps out amazing products- well built, fantastic reliability, usually unmatched residual value, but the same level of driving quality, overall feel, and image has yet to be matched in my experience. America cars... Ehhhh no comment.

as a european that line made me chuckle... used car values are entirly dependand on the market and the car it demands.

In Austria Diesel BMW, Audis and VW are the resale value kings.
A dark or silver colored Golf Stationwagon Diesel ? Selling it privately you only need 1-2 hours after putting up the ad.

From the japanese car makers Toyota holds up ok, Mazda average, Honda: Civic average resale value, everything else well below.
Mitsubishi, Subaru, Suzuki, Nissan ? High deprecation values.

Lexus ? the _worst_. Once you drive off the dealer lot you have a car with a resale value of 10.000 bucks. Because no matter what you have spent there simply is no demand for used Lexus.
Unless of course you are prepared to wait many months for a buyer. When i checked the online car offers from our local dealers 2-3 week ago they still have the same Lexus on offer they had during July.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,549
9,715
Boston
Part of what I plan to do to my car this summer is getting LED Daytime Running Lights, aftermarket hubcaps, Switchback LEDs and Fog Lights.

Here is the plans.....

Install the DRLs below the headlights complete with the DRL Relay kit.
Install Switchback LEDs in the front parking/turn signal and in the Reverse Light area
Fog Lights wired to turn on with the parking lights

So here is where the question comes.....
What is a better option for Fogs Should i get the Aftermarket Fog kit (Daewoo specific) which uses Helogen H3 bulbs and comes complete with the Wiring harness, or should I get LED based fog lights? If I go the LED route I would get a second DRL Relay kit but wire this one to turn on with the parking lights (rather than with the car). If i go with the Helogen kit I will use the provided relay kit and wire it up so they turn on and off with the parking lights. (The parking lights will have Switchback LEDs so that when they are on they will be white rather than amber)

Does anyone know the Legality of rear Switchback LEDs?

This is how it would work in the rear:

I hack up the harness and put the 1157 socket in the hole for the reverse lights. How this will work is when the car is in reverse the lights will be white (and wired to the revers light wiring) however when the turn signals are activated the reverse lights will blink amber to the corresponding side.

Being that this does not prevent the reverse lights from functioning normally under the law I don't see the issue with it. Perhaps someone here knows better about Vehicle laws than I do....

The legality of modifying the lights is dependent on what state you're in. I know in Connecticut is very strict, as they are with many things. My dad had some issue in 2001 with the inspection of his newly purchased Range Rover because it came with driving lights on the brush guard. He had to disable them for it to pass because of some confusion with the law and the puzzled inspection agent. Thankfully in CT, your car only gets fully inspected once- when you buy it. Emissions inspections are separate and they only check the emissions system. Driving with suspected illegal lights can get you pulled over as a primary offense. Just like driving with a burnt out license plate light.

My buddy was going to upgrades the lights in his Subaru to HID xenons but I guess it can be confusing to buy legal lights and I don't think he ended up doing it. A lot of companies will apparently attempt to mislead you or not provide any info. In addition to your state regulations, lights must be DOT/NHTSA certified and of equal importance the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards). Some aftermarket lights may have DOT numbers indicating part or an aspect of the light may comply with their standards BUT in reality the whole unit might NOT actually comply as it should.

It seems complicated to me but I'm sure if you research it enough for your state you can figure out what's legal, what's illegal, and the best way of getting things done appropriately. I'm thankful I already have active/adaptive bi-xenons.

I understand how switchbacks would function in regards to the front lights. With the back you want to do it with the reverse lights? Post a picture of the back of your car so I can see the layout. There may be a law that the two R & L signals have to be a certain distance apart on a car. So if your back up lights were too central that might be an issue. Would the rear turn signal and backup light on each side flash together or alternate back an forth? I believe the late-early/early-mid 2000's generation 1500 Chevy/GM pickup line had two alternating turn signals on each side of their trucks- fit on the back and back corner. Additionally, somehow mustangs have gotten away with those sequential 3 phase turn signals for decades. Again, I would suspect there has to be a minimum distance between the right and left signals. They likely mandate that all turn signals be a certain height off the ground. Sometime reverse lights are low (idk what your car looks like) so that *could* be an issue unless they only care about where the upper set of lights is. I can say back in the 90's we had a Land Rover Discovery that had four turn signals in the back. One on each side with the regular taillight unit and one on each side along the rear bumper. The second generation discovery only had lights on the bumper, but then again a LR Disco, in its tall stature, has a rear bumper like 2.5ft off the ground as it is. The third generation moved them back up to the taillights where they were more visible.

For the reverse you might have to have the reverse function (white lights) override the turn signal and just have the regular turn signals do the work. I believe technically you only need 1 reverse light. So if you were in reverse with a turn signal on, you'd still have a reverse light. BUT, if you had you hazards on, then you'd have no reverse lights. You could consider the reverse light function override (only the regular turn signals blink) when the hazards are on, and the 1 reverse light if just one turn signal. There are some european cars sold in the US I can think of that only have 1 including some generations of the Mercedes G-Wagon/Class and Land Rover Defender. Those are old versions though so I'm not sure if newer cars are allowed that. Usually cars must comply by the standards of the years they were made, so if in 1998 (?) when you car was made one was illegal, then you have to have two no matter what. If rear switchbacks are legal, you'd probably just be best have reverse lights override the second set of turn signals. To be honest though, how often and how far do you drive in reverse using turn signals?

With rear switchbacks, which I've never seen to be honest or even considered them, I feel like you'd have to make sure it would look appropriate two. Both the turn and the turn/reverse lights would have to be same brightness otherwise it might look strange. Additionally, if the lenses for your turn signals and reverse lights are different, that might not look good aesthetically in the end (i.e. red/orange turn signal lenses vs. clear back up lenses). If you have eurostyle lenses, that is where you have clear turn signal lenses, it'd probably be fine since you're replacing all the standard lights with LED's I assume.

Regarding the foglights- my vote would be to go with LED's. They'll be brighter, a better color temperature, and will be more durable down on below the front bumper. NOTE about the fog lights turning on with the parking and head lamps: I'm thinking it's a federal law that the foglights cannot be on at the same time as the high beams. Every car I've ever driven that I can remember automatically turns off the foglights upon switching on the highbeams. Once you turn the highballs off, the foglight come back on. I'm pretty sure it's a law, especially considering so many cars have that function. Then again it could be a feature carried over from european laws but usually they cut stuff out like that to save $$$ on parts. My Grand Cherokee had it, which was American made (though sold in Europe too). My BMW has it. My dad's Range Rover Sport. My mom's old Audi and Lexus as well as current Volvo as well. Just another thing probably worth looking into if you do this project.

Before you invest in any of this, I at least expect you to change your oil and coolant this century! :D

----------

I'm thinking of putting 22s on my X5 and putting some ground effects with neon lights. What do yall think?

Only if the they are 22" spinners... spinner hubcaps that is. Yes, neon underglow. Just do the full Pimp My Ride™ treatment on it.
 

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,467
Vilano Beach, FL
The legality of modifying the lights is dependent on what state you're in. I know in Connecticut is very strict, as they are with many things. My dad had some issue in 2001 with the inspection of his newly purchased Range Rover because it came with driving lights on the brush guard. He had to disable them for it to pass because of some confusion with the law and the puzzled inspection agent. Thankfully in CT, your car only gets fully inspected once- when you buy it. Emissions inspections are separate and they only check the emissions system. Driving with suspected illegal lights can get you pulled over as a primary offense. Just like driving with a burnt out license plate light.

My buddy was going to upgrades the lights in his Subaru to HID xenons but I guess it can be confusing to buy legal lights and I don't think he ended up doing it. A lot of companies will apparently attempt to mislead you or not provide any info. In addition to your state regulations, lights must be DOT/NHTSA certified and of equal importance the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards). Some aftermarket lights may have DOT numbers indicating part or an aspect of the light may comply with their standards BUT in reality the whole unit might NOT actually comply as it should.

The only reason I even considered the swap (mentioned above) to HIDs, the complete system (from harnesses to complete replacement housings) I purchased was DOT certified (cert# stamped on the housing and a copy of the certification supplied in the kit). I actually found some pics of my install (I documented pretty much everything I did :) ), here's the final results (my goal was to retain the "classic" popups while improving the poor factory lighting):
 

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A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,549
9,715
Boston
as a european that line made me chuckle... used car values are entirly dependand on the market and the car it demands.

In Austria Diesel BMW, Audis and VW are the resale value kings.
A dark or silver colored Golf Stationwagon Diesel ? Selling it privately you only need 1-2 hours after putting up the ad.

From the japanese car makers Toyota holds up ok, Mazda average, Honda: Civic average resale value, everything else well below.
Mitsubishi, Subaru, Suzuki, Nissan ? High deprecation values.

Lexus ? the _worst_. Once you drive off the dealer lot you have a car with a resale value of 10.000 bucks. Because no matter what you have spent there simply is no demand for used Lexus.
Unless of course you are prepared to wait many months for a buyer. When i checked the online car offers from our local dealers 2-3 week ago they still have the same Lexus on offer they had during July.

It's strange how hatchbacks suck in the US but they're cool in Europe and minivans are cool in India, and Buicks are the car to own in China.

In regards the US I generally observe (though obviously things vary greatly between specific models):
- Japanese cars hold their value strong initially but after 6,7,8 years depreciate into the ground. I think this is because the brands change their styling too drastically, too often (i.e. 3-4 years). A last generation model won't look that old because Toyota or Honda pumped 999 million units of the model in the product lifespan so everybody has one. After another few years go by, the common cars look so different that your 6,7,8+ year old Japanese car looks old and outdated. In the short term though, the low cost of ownership and good build quality drive their price up
- German cars drop their value immediately. A 2-3 year old German luxury with low mileage (off lease deals especially) will cost around 40-45% less than new. That 2.5 year old $45,000 C-Class is now $25,000 with 30,000 miles and a 100k bumper to bumper warranty versus the standard 50k. Because luxury buyers want the latest and the greatest, and Americans don't want to deal with ridiculous repair bills, the prices plummet. After 7-9 years of age the prices just get suck just above $10,000 because all the high schools want them as their first cars. A 2-3 thousand dollars more for each model size up.
- Lexus on the other hand just transcends both these groups and has high resale in both the short and long therm with the exception of a couple models. Superb reliability, more consistent styling than other brands, a good reputation, and I would imagine long ownership periods keeps their prices high.
 

MatthewLTL

macrumors 68000
Jan 22, 2015
1,684
18
Rochester, MN
MatthewLTL,

Ok, I just spent probably an hour typing a response to this. I apologize for any mistakes, I don't really have the time to proof read it at the moment. I am not doing this to argue with you, rather honestly inform you primarily of what I perceive as terrible decisions on your part regarding your car. I also address some misconceptions you have. This is in the interest of you, your car, your bank account, and everything you rely on your car for.

I will say quickly, Daewoos are not indestructible and that no vehicle on earth is. They are all susceptible to problems if mistreated, and problems if maintained, but probably less and with less severity. Millions of cars have come before yours and mine to create recommendations on how to maintain you car. You seem to be blatantly ignoring them and then stating that your single experiences opposing the common recommendations proves universal truth in your findings.

It has become apparent in the PPC thread people specifically tell you not to do certain things, then you do, and then you have more issues. Or people tell you do something expecting a negative consequence otherwise, you ignore it, and then the expected occurs. This is just seems like another example of that.

If anyone notices anything wrong with anything I say I encourage them to correct me or add on. I have been educated and work in the pharmaceutical field which involves some chemistry. One my favorite professors and long term academic mentors was a chemist and an automotive enthusiast. I've learned a good deal about fundamental principals of cars design, operation, maintenance, and of course chemistry in this interesting manner. I have a passion for cars, understanding them, and doing as much work on my car as possible. (Unfortunately it's a BMW so there are a bunch of things that make it tough for someone without a fancy computer system to fix all the way).
No matter your specific preferences with maintenance items, ultimately I think we can all agree (except perhaps MatthewLTL ;)) that maintenance is better than no maintenance.

Additionally, none of the possible poor outcome scenarios listed below are an extreme stretch of the imagination. These are all problems that do occur in cars, even with proper maintenance. You seem like a handy person who would have no problem doing most any of this maintence.


So here we go...


1. Ethanol History:
Ethanol (EtOH) was added due to environmental legislation, not freezing issues. The idea was it replace "MTBE" (an additive to increase octane ratings) which was contaminating drinking water. EtOH also burns cleaner so and is technically better for the environment. It however does not create as much energy so you have to burn more of it, therefore inefficient, therefore controversial (EtOH is less efficient + more expensive to buy). If you're into conspiracies, which I bet you are, some say it was the governments way to artificially increase activity in the corn market and related industries. How it effects local and market economies is another story.

2. The Law:
The law is actually a MAXIMUM of 10% EtOH in gasoline*. The limitation is because of it's varying compatibility with the majority of existing engines. There is no federal mandate on minimum ethanol blends.You can still buy gas without Ethanol. It is called E0 or ethanol-free gas.

Presently there are only a handful states with active mandates (~6), and a couple of those only mandate 2% EtOH. I just checked for you MatthewLTL, Minnesota is one of these states with the mandate. This is probably why you think there is a minimum everywhere. But even these states have legal exceptions. For example in Minnesota:

So really, if you wanted to fill your car with it, there are ways around it, but unless you're racing I don't think anyone would take the effort because most people don't care. Depending on where you live there are more or less places to buy E0- (though rare) even in liberal places like CT, MA, and CA, it's available, often marketed as racing fuel. Less EtOH = more combustion energy = more power = better performance. As I understand, E0 may be more common in areas with lots of farming because a lot of farm equipment use carburetors and are not necessarily ethanol friendly.

3. Ethanol Properties:
Ethanol actually does freeze, but to fair at ridiculously low temperatures (alcohol off the top of my head is somewhere around -170). But just because it has a lower freezing point than pure gasoline does not mean it will drop the gas freezing point to the ethanol freezing point. Also consider that gasoline is not pure and contains impurities that can affect the freezing point (in either direction). In what we're talking about, water is usually the main impurity concerned because it separates from the gasoline and can freeze. This is why gas line antifreeze, often anhydrous methanol + maybe another water absorbing agent, is still used in parts of America with frigid climates... even in gas with 10% ethanol.

Ethanol is limited to 10% because it can be damaging to rubber products. More importantly it is corrosive to metals such as zinc, aluminum, and magnesium. Carburetors often contain these metals and are consequently damaged by EtOh, especially in higher concentrations. *E15 (15% Ethanol) has been approved for use in cars made after 2001, as vehicles manufactured prior have been proven to show premature damage in studies. E85 vehicles, those capable of running 85% EtOH, limit ethanol contact with zinc, aluminum, magnesium, or rubber to prevent damage from the high concentrations. I believe they also may have different fuel pump setups due to how EtOH conducts electricity vs gasoline. E15 under federal law can be sold to cars newer than 2001. Older vehicles than that have been shown to experience premature damage in studies. I've heard 20% ethanol is supposedly going to be available, perhaps mandated in places, but there is news about some legislatures wanting to decrease the amount of ethanol in gas as it is (politics, religion, social issue discussion anyone?)

4. An Alaskan Anecdote Involing The Hygroscopicity of Ethanol:
When I was in Alaska in 2012 I learned most their gas has no has EtOH. It could be because Alaska has few (if any?) corn crops, but it was explained to me that it is because ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs water. If too much water is absorbed a water-ethanol solution will separate from the gasoline and cause ignition issues, as water+ethanol does not explode. The ethanol, again, will promote corrosion. In cold climates (Alaska) the water will freeze and block fuel lines. Environmental/atmospheric water can be absorbed sitting in a tank underground at a station or in a storage facility. Note: after the phase separation, the water-ethanol solution will sink/the gasoline will rise to the top. If your getting old gas that has been sitting at bottom of the gas station's tank or you have been storing gas, it's possible to get some water got in there. Ethanol's hygroscopic properties are also why marine applications may prefer E0 given that a boat is surrounded by water and extremely damp air. Though some boats have fuel-water separators which H imagine would help with this). I'm not well versed in aviation but I vaguely know that pilots do have concerns w/EtOH, probably in regards to many of the same issues already discussed and something to do with the vapor pressure of ethanol also fluctuating with altitude changes potentially causing air bubbles and engine fuel starvation.

***The main point here is that not everywhere has ethanol in their fuel. Therefore, its freezing point is a higher temperature. So the irony is, having ethanol in fuel may prevent it from freezing if there is no water contamination. That said, if water is present in the correct amount, then the ethanol will cause phase separation and increase the likelihood of problems. Without ethanol, the freezing point of the gas is higher, therefore more likely to freeze and cause problems. In reality, most people in the US don't live in a climates with common or routine temperatures below 0.***

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Volume II. Now to MatthewLTL's car more specifically (1998? Daewoo Lanos)... If you read anything, it should be this section.

5. Freezing Gas Tanks:
I think you mean "more full" rather than "fuller". The tank capacity has nothing to do with the freezing issue. Your gas lines will freeze far before the tank does. It's all about the surface area to volume ratio. In the case of a fuel line or pump, you have high surface area to low volume. More surface area = more contact with the cold exterior. A gas tank (assuming it's not super thin and flat, instead a boxier rectangular prism), would have low surface area to high volume... less surface area, less contact with the cold exterior. Catch my drift? Refer to the gas freezing scenarios above.

6. Engine Coolant Changes
If your Daewoo uses DexCool coolant like most GM vehicles, there are two types. I would guess you have the orange that recommends a change ever 150,000 miles (or every 5 years)... I think they mostly used this in the 90's but I don't know. I remember there is a lot of controversy with it recently because it becomes acidic well before the suggested change interval. I believe there was even a class action lawsuit. The other option you have is Green DexCool which is rated 2 years/30,000 miles. Or you may have another coolant, you can check it out.

In that your car is pretty old, you should change it considering that any past life antifreeze will become acidic and degrade rubber/plastic parts over time. With time, coolant's specific heat can also change (meaning it cannot effectively carry as much heat away from the engine- 1 aspect of this discussed in two paragraphs). Environmental contamination can also cause the coolant to become electrolytic and can/will also corrode all the copper and brass in the cooling system -water pump, heater core, radiator, and a maybe some fittings along the way. Corrosion leads to leaks, leaks leads to loss of fluid, loss of fluid leads to overheating, overheating can lead to severe engine damage. If you have an aluminum engine, overheating can often be catastrophic. In some cases, just one quick overheat can warp the metal and ruin the motor beyond practical repair.

I would again suggest replacing the coolant it at this point. It doesn't necessarily matter how miles you have, the aging process still occurs. If you really need to prove yourself to spend the $25 on premixed coolant test the pH of the existing coolant. Coolant is alkaline (basic). If I remember correctly usually the ideal pH is 9.5-10.5 and should replaced definitely be replaced if the pH goes below 8.3... but you should probably double check those figures.

7. Coolant to Water Ratio & Colligative Properties:
You should also consider engine coolant freezes around -40F WITH a 50/50 antifreeze/distilled water ratio (potentially lower, depending on what the antifreeze is composed of). Consider the fact that you haven't exactly maintained your cooling system and that you don't know what the true ratio is. It is expected some coolant would slowly be lost naturally through evaporation over the years and you, being super repsonsible checking your fluids regularly, topped it off with 50/50 coolant like the average savvy person. Let's assume the car came with a 50/50 mix, in evaporation you only will lose water, not the ethylene/polyethylene glycol ]. So that would mean as water is lost, the antifreeze concentration becomes higher than 50% (say 52/48). Then you add more 50/50 to top it off because of more evaporation. Then your concentration of antifreeze is even higher than 50% (say (54/46). Repeat this for the X-many years since your car was built and the fluid never changed, and the ratio becomes way out of proportion. While I imagine with normal loss through evaporation would be a negligible issue, over 17 years this might become a factor. Luckily coolant lost through the exhaust would however be lost at a proportional late. If not topping off with 50/50 coolant, just throwing in coolant guessing the amount or not mixing with water will throw of the balance.

The ultimate point I'm getting at is the the possibility of higher antifreeze concentration, the higher the freezing point. By comparison a 25/75 mixture will freeze at 10F, or a 32.5/67.5 at 0F (versus the -40 with 50/50)- that's pretty extreme! As you also might logically deduce, conversely, this would mean you have a higher coolant boiling point because of the higher proportion of coolant to water. Now you might understand your engine would be at greater risk of overheating or running an a non-optimal temperature (as boiling coolant is not effective at cooling the engine). I'm not saying has occurred to a catostrophic level (YET!) for sure but is just a future possibility to be aware of in that you live in a cold climate. Since you have never flushed the coolant, you have never reset the coolant/water ratio.

8. Oil Changes:
You should REALLY consider changing your oil more than every 4 years. Even if you drive a short distance, environmental exposure will decrease the viscosity, efficacy, pH of of the oil. Motor oil sitting in massive temperature fluctuations can change its viscosity over time (i.e. ~200F to -60F is pretty big). Oil also can become oxidized decreasing its efficacy. Extreme cold causes oil to permanently congeal and not flow as well throughout the engine. Motor oil + H20 creates acid that's not good for your engine. The last 3-4 points are especially true with non synthetic oil.

I know you say you don't drive on the highway or far away so I'm guessing you take a lot of short trips. One of the biggest problems of short trips is theydo not allow for oil contaminants to burn off. This is just asking for oil sludge issues. Additionally, if your oil never heats up all the way for long enough, it may rarely flow well through the engine, thus neglecting to properly lubricate all parts of the engine. Oil is cheap, especially if you just buy regular oil. An replacement engine is not. You might as well play it safe rather than potentially causing a catastrophic issue.

Both the Coolant and Oil changes are two things professional mechanics always comment on regarding "grandma cars"- old cars with low milage that may the maintenance they require based on miles driven, but time and aging of consumables is not taken into consideration.

9. Engine Block Heater:
I can easily agree modern cars are easier to start in the cold due to multiple factors. I can generalize here in New England engine block heaters (+fuel heaters) are primarily used on diesel engines due the nature of diesel in the cold. I've never heard anything about Ford specifically but this sounds like it could be one of your vast generalizations. What characteristic of Ford engines makes this the case?

If you live in a climate that gets to -60 then you definitely would have an engine block heater. (You on the other hand are living in a place that has no record of ever reaching -60F, let alone below -40F... or even -30F- and that was in the 70's.) I was told in Alaska to use an engine block heater if temps were around -20F or lower with gasoline. It could be higher or lower, I don't have much experience with regular use of them. The purpose of them is to heat the oil which becomes too vicious in cold weather. I looked at a residency program in Alaska (yes, that same 2012 trip) and everybody had them up there. Many people also had them when I visited Sweden as well. They are still an option on most cars as far as I can see. They are also available aftermarket. If you're living in a climate that doesn't get cold enough, you won't obviously won't see them because they're not necessary. In my entire life living winters between Mass, NY, and Conn I've only seen a few regular, gasoline cars with them (usually used cars or people who had moved)

10: Summary:
The reason you change fluids is because of a concept called "preventative maintenance". That logic is if you spend a little money here and there, you will have fewer catastrophic issues in the future. Again, none of these scenarios are particularly rare or out of the realm of possibility. Remember that the health of coolant can not really be determined visually. You can tell if oil is dirty or has coolant in it easily, but you can't reasonably measure it's viscosity or life.

BMW says I should get an oil change every 12 or 15k miles. But like I said, oil relatively cheap yet vital to the car. Spending a little extra money by changing the oil every 5,000 with full synthetic gives me better piece of mind. In the first 50,000 miles under warranty I'm sure the car does will survive with 15k mile intervals, but who knows long run. Funny story- I know a woman that divorced her husband and didn't change the oil in herbrand new (at the time) Volvo for almost 45,000 miles!!! The engine apparently had no real issues but did get a thorough sludge cleaning. She sold the car shortly after that after advisement from the mechanic (buyer beware!).

I ment to reply to this sooner but the damn MDD locked up again.

The E10 possible expains why I have to get the Carb rebuilt on my snow blower ever 1-2 years.

The engine coolant has just been replaced I had to replace it (Again) after replacing my Thermostat (Again) in May of 2014. It does not use DexCool (Expensive) it uses plain generic green coolant (or atlest that is what I put in it).

The Oil will be replaced this July (as the manual states to replace it every 6k or 3 years) and it will be 3 years this july. It was recommended to use High Mileage oil in my car due to how little it is driven.

A mechanic talk to (who has been working on cars over 40 years) actually stated that you never need to do anything to Power Steering fluid (A local mechanic said the same thing) He said the only time you change the Coolant (other than obvious servicing of the cooling system) is when it falls out of spec.

The Manual of GM vehicles (and the Daewoo) specifically state that you NEVER need to change or flush tranny fluid it specifically states in the Daewoo's manual that only the manual transmission fluid needs changing or flushing.


The 2009-2010 Winter broke records across the nation AND in Canada. States including Texas got several FEET of snow. In the Northern US and in Canada, Ontario was getting snow at a rate of 4 inches per hour it was the worst snow in Canada in over 30 years (Ontario anyway) here in Minnesota we got up to 12 feet of snow. In Rochester we got between 4-8 FEET. My part of Rochester we got 6 feet. Mind you this was on ONE overnight snow storm and the 1st snow of the winter season. It was the winter of 2010 that killed the ABS Sensor on the impala.

The 2013-2014 winter was one of the COLDEST winters in recent history. It broke records across the Midwest and Nor'east. (Even Florida got below freezing and a dusting of snow) And Georgia (a state that gets snow every year) shut down and abandoned their cars on the interstate from a DUSTING of snow! The night before that cold start video it was -60F ACTUAL temp NOT windchill The day OF that cold start is was like -25F with windchills getting close to -60F (later that day).
 
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