The Car Thread ... !

[0388631]

And they were ignoring FCA last week. VAG/VW would be better off acquiring Jeep since the brand has so much global recognition over Fiat and Alfa. Alfa and Maserati would be better off spun as separate companies. FCA announced a few hours they weren't thinking about a merger.

OTOH, acquiring all of FCA would improve FCA quality over time and provide much more reliable vehicles. Though I question how it would fare for Alfa and Maserati, since their engines tend to be influenced by Ferrari.

 

[2298754]

And they were ignoring FCA last week. VAG/VW would be better off acquiring Jeep since the brand has so much global recognition over Fiat and Alfa. Alfa and Maserati would be better off spun as separate companies.

This is what I was thinking. If Jeep is up for grabs, VAG should buy it to gain US marketshare.

Alfa and Maserati have no place in VW AG. Both of these brands have no brand recognition and are struggling for sales. Basically the opposite of Audi and Porsche.

It's ironic how Piech wanted Alfa Romeo, but Marchionne told him to get lost. Now Marchionne is practically begging anyone that will listen...

It was GM a few months ago, now it's VAG. Next up... PSA?

[doublepost=1489632235][/doublepost]

Fiat basically owns Jeep, Fiat, and Alfa. Everything else is mostly trash or VW has a better equvalent.

The only brands worth anything to VW are Jeep and RAM. Both cater to segments in the market where VW is weak.

They don't need more highline brands. They own some of the world's most profitable brands in Audi, Porsche, Bentley, Lamborghini, and Bugatti.

No one cares about Dodge/Chrysler/Fiat. As you said, the VW equivalents are far better.

I could see Alfa/Maserati being sold to the Chinese or Indians, similar to what happened to Volvo or JLR.

 

[0388631]

This is what I was thinking. If Jeep is up for grabs, VAG should buy it to gain US marketshare.

Jeep would benefit A LOT from VAG engineering. Jeep is a recognizable brand the world over. The others? Not so much.

Alfa and Maserati have no place in VW AG. Both of these brands have no brand recognition and are struggling for sales. Basically the opposite of Audi and Porsche.

Pretty much why they'd need to be spun off or another group/company taking over. I'd read somewhere, I think over at BP, that Merc or BMW were eying them up. Good things would come of it. It would be, and I know this is a total day dream, if BMW and Merc split the costs and engineering. We'd have some amazing rides.

It's ironic how Piech wanted Alfa Romeo, but Marchionne told him to get lost. Now Marchionne is practically begging anyone that will listen...

Ironic, yes, but it's also called desperation. In the deeper threads on the net, including one on CL that had posts removed, people were purposefully misspelling Marchionne's name. There's a Spanish slur that can be made by rearranging his name's letters. What they were alluding to was that he was being a tough guy and is now bending over waiting for anyone to pickup FCA. GM picking up FCA would be terrible. GM needs to focus on GM and they're making small strides at getting better.

It was GM a few months ago, now it's VAG. Next up... PSA?

I doubt it. I'm not sure what a possible deal may entail, but Dongfend and the French government hold stakes in PSA, and both countries are notorious for being anti-competitive.


VAG buying up Alfa and Maserati as we agreed wouldn't work. There would be no point in doing so. If the German two buy into both, I can see good things happening. For one, Italians would have more faith in their cars again.

 

[2298754]

Jeep would benefit A LOT from VAG engineering. Jeep is a recognizable brand the world over. The others? Not so much.

I think this could benefit both brands. I'm imagining a VW Touareg with rugged styling and a Jeep badge on the front. Same with the Tiguan. It's probably better than the POS Renegade and Cherokee that's out now.

Jeep having access to the VAG parts bin could be a great thing

Pretty much why they'd need to be spun off or another group/company taking over. I'd read somewhere, I think over at BP, that Merc or BMW were eying them up. Good things would come of it. It would be, and I know this is a total day dream, if BMW and Merc split the costs and engineering. We'd have some amazing rides.

I was saying this to @A.Goldberg the other day. Reskin the W213 with sexy Italian styling and sell it as a Ghibli. Problem solved.

What they were alluding to was that he was being a tough guy and is now bending over waiting for anyone to pickup FCA.

It amazes me that Sergio still has a job.

This is the same idiot that told the public to not buy the 500e because his company was loosing money on it (http://www.reuters.com/article/chrsyelr-ceo-evs-idUSL1N0O71MS20140521)

He also publicly said that the Chrysler 200's design was not well-thought out (http://jalopnik.com/sergio-marchionne-is-chopping-dicks-over-the-chrysler-2-1755034935)

When the Dodge Dart first came, he proudly claimed that any automaker who wants to be successful has to sell a car in that segment. That car barely lasted 2-3 years on the market. (This was in an old 60 minutes segment)

Now he claims that partnerships have to be formed to save R&D costs?

If these segments are so unprofitable, why are Ford/GM/Honda/Toyota/HK able to make money selling the same cars...?

 

[AustinIllini]

That old 60 minutes segment looks really bad now. The fact is, he wildly failed when he said it was his biggest fears.

They're making cheap entries in a saturated market. And sorry, there's not a ton of compelling reasons to buy a Challenger when a Camaro or Mustang is as good and or better. I felt like I was sitting on cement in my colleague's Hellcat. Yeah, it's cool, but it's still a really uncomfortable car.

And if FCA is going to sell to VAG, Alfa is a marque worth saving by someone. Sell the brand to Ferrari and see what they can do as a strictly racing and high performance marque. It's Alfa Romeo, for God's sake. It's the brand that fostered Enzo Ferrari.

 

[0388631]

I think this could benefit both brands. I'm imagining a VW Touareg with rugged styling and a Jeep badge on the front. Same with the Tiguan. It's probably better than the POS Renegade and Cherokee that's out now.

Jeep having access to the VAG parts bin could be a great thing

That would be interesting. Though I think they could introduce more utility vehicles. A car for every type of person and then adjust output based on sales or terminate a model.

I was saying this to @A.Goldberg the other day. Reskin the W213 with sexy Italian styling and sell it as a Ghibli. Problem solved.

No thanks. I'd hate to see a Merc with Italian styling. The Giulia, to me, looks like a mashup of various vehicles by other manufacturers.

It amazes me that Sergio still has a job.

This is the same idiot that told the public to not buy the 500e because his company was loosing money on it (http://www.reuters.com/article/chrsyelr-ceo-evs-idUSL1N0O71MS20140521)

Had no idea about that. I wasn't paying attention to Fiat at all. The 500 and the Abarth sell poorly here.

He also publicly said that the Chrysler 200's design was not well-thought out (http://jalopnik.com/sergio-marchionne-is-chopping-dicks-over-the-chrysler-2-1755034935)

The 200 is a terrible car. The 300 wasn't bad at all. It had its flaws, but it wasn't a bad car. I tend to ignore Jalopnik because of their stupid posts at times, but someone in the comments section posted a slew of cars. All of which are better than most FCA sedans. I'd say Mazda's 3 and 6 sedans ATM are some of the best looking cars from the Japanese this moment. Conservative styling without looking like a Japanese robot, and the Mazdas took inspiration from BMW's center console. They're nice looking cars. Shame Mazda still isn't up to snuff.

When the Dodge Dart first came, he proudly claimed that any automaker who wants to be successful has to sell a car in that segment. That car barely lasted 2-3 years on the market. (This was in an old 60 minutes segment)

TBF, Chrysler Auto prior to merger put out a lot of junk cars. Surely you remember the Caliber. Or the Magnum. Junk cars.

Now he claims that partnerships have to be formed to save R&D costs?

They can. Think of it like this. VAG uses platforms in many of their cars, share engines albeit of different spec, etc. to save money. Why reinvent the wheel when you've got quality stuff already? Which is where the idea of an Audi being a fancy VW came about, the same way people think a Lexus is just a fancy Toyota. As in, only the body is different.

What Sergio is trying to say is that it'd save FCA R&D money if they simply took what they wanted and didn't put in their own effort. FCA is essentially the pothead you knew in uni and had to deal with on group projects. The kid you knew in grade school who'd eat glue or huff markers. Though in Sergio's case, he's been huffing something alright.

If these segments are so unprofitable, why are Ford/GM/Honda/Toyota/HK able to make money selling the same cars...?

Sergio is a fine example of someone who went to college, who has an impressive education but never kept up with the industry. Taking Goldy as an example, he's a pharmacist. He's got to stay on top of advancements in pharmacology. He has to take continuation courses here and there to maintain his license. He has to attend seminars and whatnot. Sergio likely never did that. He's going off of his 1970s education in commerce. And then spent his time after UG going towards law. He's worked the corporate latter only. He has zero interest and or knowledge in vehicles.

People like Zetsche, Muller or Kruger worked in their respective field as a lowly worker and studied some form of engineering. They weren't always high paid businessmen.

 

[A.Goldberg]

The only brands worth anything to VW are Jeep and RAM. Both cater to segments in the market where VW is weak

I'm not sure how much interest VW would have in RAM, besides maybe cargo vans.

I'm not sure why FCA would part with Jeep or RAM, that would be most of their profitable vehicles right there. I think the merger would have to include the rest, but why would VAG care about things like Dodge and Chrysler.

 

[AustinIllini]

I'm not sure how much interest VW would have in RAM, besides maybe cargo vans.

I'm not sure why FCA would part with Jeep or RAM, that would be most of their profitable vehicles right there. I think the merger would have to include the rest, but why would VAG care about things like Dodge and Chrysler.

RAM is a potential cash cow for VW. Trucks outsell everything in the US. It's a market VW has not tapped in the US.

 

[2298754]

I'm not sure how much interest VW would have in RAM, besides maybe cargo vans.

Possibly as a way to get the Amarok to the US market? They could avoid the Chicken Tax by using RAM's factories. Bring the Dakota name back to the US, to compete with Taco/GM twins and the upcoming Ranger.

 

[AustinIllini]

Possibly as a way to get the Amarok to the US market? They could avoid the Chicken Tax by using RAM's factories. Bring the Dakota name back to the US, to compete with Taco/GM twins and the upcoming Ranger.

RAM makes something extremely valuable, but I think with VW running the show, the situation can only improve. FCA is just a giant case of mismanagement.

 

[2298754]

Though I think they could introduce more utility vehicles. A car for every type of person and then adjust output based on sales or terminate a model.

Yup, exactly. VW's biggest hole in their US lineup is their non-luxury SUVs and Jeep would fill that perfectly.

The Giulia, to me, looks like a mashup of various vehicles by other manufacturers.

I'm on the fence about the Giulia. The QF versions look nice, but after seeing the normal ones... they look cheap.

Shame Mazda still isn't up to snuff.

100% agree. It's unfortunate. Mazda has some great products out, but no one is buying them. They are being outsold by Kia and Subaru.

They can. Think of it like this. VAG uses platforms in many of their cars, share engines albeit of different spec, etc. to save money.

Ironically, I think Mazda would a great partner for FCA. They need small and mid-size sedans and Mazda already makes some of the best with the 3/6.

 

[A.Goldberg]

RAM makes something extremely valuable, but I think with VW running the show, the situation can only improve. FCA is just a giant case of mismanagement.

I don't doubt that, FCA is a cluster... but the full size pickup market isn't very big outside of North America. In that sense I'm not sure how much they would value it as a global corporation. Jeep at least buys them into a global market.

 

[0388631]

Yup, exactly. VW's biggest hole in their US lineup is their non-luxury SUVs and Jeep would fill that perfectly.

The problem with VW, at least with the Touareg and the Tiguan has always been, as I said, this perception of cheap or rather a poor man's version of an Audi SUV or Porche. Both are fine vehicles. The Tiguan looks great at its price point. And the Touareg isn't exactly cheap. VW does have its issues, which I brought up many months ago. The Jetta and Passat need some serious work. The CC isn't bad, but it isn't great either.

The first generation Touareg is a very capable car. It's not bad off road either. In fact, I believe it scored higher than the RR of the time.

I'm on the fence about the Giulia. The QF versions look nice, but after seeing the normal ones... they look cheap.

The interior isn't very appealing. Especially for the money they're asking! I suspect it'll be like Lexus's GS-F. Dealers will give steep incentives to get them off the lot. Lexus is bringing a TT V6 for the LS500, but there's a tiny rumor than a TT V8 engine will also come along later. I'm certain Lexus/Toyota has invested heavily into R&D to make a Lexus engine that's turbocharged and as reliable as their NA engines that go a few hundred thousand miles without a rebuild. The LC F with its rumored 600+ HP engine is going to be a monster and have amazing resale.

100% agree. It's unfortunate. Mazda has some great products out, but no one is buying them. They are being outsold by Kia and Subaru.

Tell you what. We live on opposite sides of the country. Subaru's aren't popular here. There's a dealer about half an hour away. Barely ever has people on the lot, and it's on a busy intersection, blasts ads to kingdom come. No one likes them except teenagers wanting a WRX or adults wanting to be a boyracer in an STI. Mazda needs to up their exterior finish quality, use better manufacturing techniques to prevent rust (since it's still a problem apparently), and work on more powerful engines. Their Skyactiv is incredible, but it does need more power. I've sat in a fully loaded CX-9. It's very nice. If they can build Mazda to that type of quality, work on NVH and provide more power, they'll succeed in selling more units.

Look at the 3 and the 6. It's abundantly clear they used Audi's A4 as a benchmark and then used a bit from BMW. And it looks fantastic. NVH is a minor issue, but they've improved massively. Both cars come with optional Bose sound systems. Power ratings are paltry. IIRC the gas and diesels put out around 135 and 175 HP, respectively, but the diesels put out around 300-310 ft lb of torque. Are also a bit louder inside. Mazda's got the right idea now. Honda will realized their CVT mistake in the years to come.
[doublepost=1489638474][/doublepost]

Ironically, I think Mazda would a great partner for FCA. They need small and mid-size sedans and Mazda already makes some of the best with the 3/6.

I can't agree. To me, FCA will be worse than Ford. Mazda doesn't have the money to support both them and FCA. FCA are a leach looking for a new host. Any company that merges with FCA should gut them like Diamler did to Chrysler, except force FCA to get on their terms or pound sand.
[doublepost=1489638734][/doublepost]

I don't doubt that, FCA is a cluster... but the full size pickup market isn't very big outside of North America. In that sense I'm not sure how much they would value it as a global corporation. Jeep at least buys them into a global market.

Pickups are popular with builders or tradesmen. I've seen them in Europe. They stick out like a sore thumb, but people do buy them. The Amarok doesn't look bad, but people will be hesitant to buy on here. AU doesn't quite remember how many Americans had hesitation with Tacos. Now they're everywhere. They've got better resale and reliability than anything Ford or RAM put out.

 

[AustinIllini]

I don't doubt that, FCA is a cluster... but the full size pickup market isn't very big outside of North America. In that sense I'm not sure how much they would value it as a global corporation. Jeep at least buys them into a global market.

But they are a monster segment VAG doesn't have. And they're ungodly huge here.

 

[0388631]

Interesting choice of words, Austin.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Pickups are popular with builders or tradesmen. I've seen them in Europe. They stick out like a sore thumb, but people do buy them. The Amarok doesn't look bad, but people will be hesitant to buy on here. AU doesn't quite remember how many Americans had hesitation with Tacos. Now they're everywhere. They've got better resale and reliability than anything Ford or RAM put out

I think you missed the term "full size" pickup. Last I checked you can't really buy an F-150, 250, or 350 in most of Europe, if anywhere. Certainly not to be found in my travels. Closest thing would probably be a Defender 110 pickup. Pickups seem to top out at midsize i.e. Taco/Ranger. Standards of what Europeans and Americans look for in pickups vary, which is why there are observable differences between US and foreign models.

If you recall RAM currently does not make a smaller pickup than a 1500. Supposedly that Fiat-based Dakota thing is coming out, maybe it will sell a little in Europe but it won't sell here. I doubt a car-based Fiat pickup will do too well against the well selling Ranger and Hilux (aka Tacoma). Keep in mind they also have other offerings over there like Mitsubishi, Isuzu (GM), VW, etc. While the small pickup market in the US has been rather unstable, it's a much tougher market abroad. Full size pickups- your RAMs with massive V8's will not sell... too expensive, too expensive to fuel up, potentially too big to maneuver in tight cities, etc. Same reason we don't see Tahoes, Suburbans, Expeditions, Hummers in Europe.
[doublepost=1489640340][/doublepost]

But they are a monster segment VAG doesn't have. And they're ungodly huge here.

My point is VAG probably wouldn't want to take on the dead brands of Chrysler and Dodge. Chrysler/Dodge probably wouldn't leave behind their two profitable brands- Jeep and RAM. It doesn't make sense.

Pretty much all VAG cars are sold globally. I'm not sure it's in their playbook to acquire RAM, a brand that's basically only successful in North America. It's not like they could buy RAM and tomorrow drop RAM 1500's, 2500's, and 3500's in Europe and expect them to sell.

 

[0388631]

I've seen a photo of a F150 in use in Europe. But that was 2-3 years ago. Europe's catching the mid-sized pickup bug or so as articles have been stating as such for a couple of years. If Ford could offer an EcoBoost engine in Europe for the F150, it will sell provided it's very efficient. Size is the issue, and the current mid-sized trucks are a pain to navigate in Europe. I've made it a habit in the past not to drive much when visiting Europe and not being in Ireland or the UK (minus a few areas). The majority of Europe simply isn't built for a mid-size pickup and it's a bit difficult to navigate tight roads if you're not used to them, even in a compact car. You'll see them outside of large metro areas. Some countries have novelty American imports. The Tundra is somewhat popular with Belgians and the Dutch. If you take a gander, you'll regularly see 100K+ mile driven Tundras selling for just over 18K Euros.

It's ridiculous.

 

[takao]

i think the phrase "novelty cars" for US pick ups in europe sums it up great.

Usually there are only two big customer groups for US pick ups here:

1. Building company: 5 semi trucks, 6 white vans,3 white van pick ups, 1 US pickup truck. Guess who drives the big US pickup ? The boss, as a "prestige" vehicle.

2. US car fans who want a daily driver to prevent their classic muscle car rusting away but still something very "american". see also: Tattoo artists, tattoed barkeepers of trendy bars. Girlfriend wearing a petticoat to fit his rockabilly look: mandatory

In Europe the need for pick up capabilities for commercial business is usually covered by "Pick up" versions of white vans(Mercedes Sprinter, VW Transporter, ford transit etc.). The german phrase pritschenwagen might yield countless of hits.
http://www.mercedes-benz.ch/content...ome/new_vans/models/sprinter_906/pickup_.html
https://www.vw-nutzfahrzeuge.at/transporter-pritschenwagen/variantenvielfalt

For those who want a US style pick up VW already sells the Amarok outside the US.
Buying RAM for it's single market - single segment appeal ? not VW's style. Jeep might make sense, but selling it doesn't make sense for FCA.
Mercedes has enough 4wd and commercial vehicles knowledge to enter the market themselves. If they want to.

Both are more interested in semi-truck-sales, since those usually are more world wide.

 

[ALLROADINGB9]

2017 F150 with the new 3.5 and 10 speed.

 

[2298754]

http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-peoples-chrysler-volkswagen-open-to-a-merger-with-fca/

UPDATE 3/16/2017: Marchionne on Wednesday denied he was pursuing Volkswagen for a merger. According to Automotive News, which quoted the CEO following remarks by President Trump in Detroit, Marchionne said he “will not call Matthias. I have no interest.

“If he wants to come, he knows where I live,” Marchionne said. “I didn’t chase him and I have no intention of chasing him. But if I’m right on consolidation and the fact you need to build scale, we’re the natural place to go for him.”

Sergio is trying to play hard to get lol

 

[2298754]

B9 A4 allroad DAP, cold weather package and warm weather package all the goodies

That's not a DAP-equipped B9 Allroad

 

[AustinIllini]

http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-peoples-chrysler-volkswagen-open-to-a-merger-with-fca/



Sergio is trying to play hard to get lol

He's an idiot. I can't believe he's still in charge.

 

[ALLROADINGB9]

[/QUOTE]

Yes it is, you know what the picture I had was of the same allroad with out full body paint that was what I had a pic of so it's the same thing except mines full body paint as well, and DAP equipped. Good catch!

 

[ALLROADINGB9]

XC90 2016-

 

[2298754]

Yes it is, you know what the picture I had was of the same allroad with out full body paint that was what I had a pic of so it's the same thing except mines full body paint as well, and DAP equipped. Good catch!

Hmm... are you sure about that?

1. http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-...216/allroads-snow-2914317/page3/#post24924046

Don't see the full body paint here...

2. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/747118-B9-Allroad-Picture-Thread

Don't see those DAP ACC sensors on the front of your car...

3. http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-...ane-assist-all-cars-pre-sense-2907906/page40/

Why would you be trying to code Active Lane Assist if your AR already has DAP?