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Thank you for the explanation. My understanding was a viscosity at a higher level, its not as prone to thinning and overall thickness conventional motor oil has, which wouldnt you want a higher viscosity oil in terms of performace, where as lower viscosity numbers are thinner, running hotter. So Using average motor oil can technically lose viscosity quicker, because it’s thinner and will wear quicker. Where is if you use a synthetic-based, it’s more protective In protecting engine parts, and then it less susceptible to thinning at higher/extreme temperatures.

However, if this makes sense, If a motor oil passes a certain range temperature, it receives a viscosity grade, which basically doesn’t matter which oil is used because certain oils are the same due to the engine temperature. The way I interpreted it was viscosity’s rating for example may be “W”, Which is used for colder temperatures, Which I was under the impression oils are tested for certain operating temperatures in terms of being used of higher performance vehicles . So, the a “W” (Which is a low viscosity number) flowing at a colder rate, helps with minimal engine wear. Or If you use 5W-30 motor oil performs at the temperature indicated, but still has the SAE 30 viscosity,
More or less, wouldn’t you want a heavier viscosity oil if its used performance car running at higher temperatures? With a full synthetic oil, its less susceptible to breaking down under higher temperatures, Which if you were to use an additive (Which I never have), wouldn’t it technically help the viscositys duration/overall longevity.

Yes thicker the oil, the better protection at higher temperatures. But each oil has its purpose. If you're street driving your car, the factory fill is more than enough. At the lower temperatures, the 5W-30 will protect the engine just fine( and flow easier at cold start ups). But if you're tracking the car, a thicker oil( such as a 15W-50 as GM recommends) will be better at engine protection when the oil is in the 250-280 F range. The thicker oil though won't be good for the engine for street use.

And it doesn't matter if it's synthetic or conventional. If you use an oil outside of its designed operating limits, it will no longer protect the engine.
 
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Thank you for the explanation. My understanding was a viscosity at a higher level, its not as prone to thinning and overall thickness conventional motor oil has, which wouldnt you want a higher viscosity oil in terms of performace, where as lower viscosity numbers are thinner, running hotter. So Using average motor oil can technically lose viscosity quicker, because it’s thinner and will wear quicker. Where is if you use a synthetic-based, it’s more protective In protecting engine parts, and then it less susceptible to thinning at higher/extreme temperatures.

Sorry, but I'm having a really tough time even understanding what you're saying here.

All engine oils are prone to sheering, which, for lack of a better term, is where the oil is mechanical ripped apart by the extreme pressure and heat at certain places(namely the bearings and cam lobes). This phenomenon does reduce the viscosity of the oil. As technology has improved, oils have become more resistant to this, although as a rule of thumb the wider the viscosity spread the more prone it is to happening.

Still, any group III oil is good and perfectly safe for a modern engine unless you're just all out hammering on it. If you are, there are specialty oils for that application. You probably won't find them on the shelf at your favorite auto parts store either as they tend to not be suitable for street use(the "real" Valvoline VR-1 racing oil is one such oil-it's loaded with ZDDP and other anti-wear additives, but is very low in detergent content. It's what the doctor ordered for running pedal to the floor for a few hours since it gives protection in those extreme conditions and the lack of detergent keeps it from foaming, but you'd better not leave it in your sump very long unless you want to deal with all the crud it doesn't keep in suspension).

BTW, Ford specs 5W-20 for a lot of their passenger cars now for CAFE reasons. I run 5W-30(Mobil 1 usually) for better wear protection at the loss of a couple of tenths of a mile per gallon. That's a personal decision and not something I'd advocate everyone doing-when in doubt stick with what the manufacturer says, although 5W-30 is an approved "alternate" grade for my car.

Also, I think you might have a misunderstanding of how multi-grade oils work.

Let's take a monograde oil(aka "straight weight") like SAE 30. It is a general rule for any fluid that viscosity is inversely proportional to temperature-i.e. fluids are most viscous at lower temperatures and least viscous at higher temperatures. This is something you know intuitively-look at how easy it is to pour hot and cold syrup, for example.

If you were to graph the viscosity vs. temperature for something like SAE 30, you see a relatively linear decrease in viscosity with increasing ambient temperatures, or at least linear over the course of typical ambient temperatures up to engine operating temperatures. This CAN be a bad thing if you're at very low ambient temperatures, as the oil is very viscous at low temperatures, although it works fine at engine operating temperatures.

Multi-grade oils employ some special magic :) . Basically, what they do is at typical non-running ambient temperatures-say somewhere in the range of 0-100ºF-they have a viscosity profile similar to a straight weight oil of the lower number marked on the bottle. At engine operating temperature-say in the 180-200ºF range-their viscosity profile is more like that of the higher weight marked on the bottle.

The end result is that multi-grade oils have a somewhat more "flat" viscosity vs. temperature curve than a straight weight oil. The net result of that is generally a good thing, especially if you live somewhere that actually has some semblance of 4 seasons, as you're putting a lot less strain on the starter, oil pump, crankshaft, and pretty much every other part when starting the engine. You're also making the sure that the oil gets where it needs to go a lot more easily. At the same time, the oil holds its viscosity at operating temperature so that you can maintain effective boundary protection.
 
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Sorry, but I'm having a really tough time even understanding what you're saying here.

All engine oils are prone to sheering, which, for lack of a better term, is where the oil is mechanical ripped apart by the extreme pressure and heat at certain places(namely the bearings and cam lobes). This phenomenon does reduce the viscosity of the oil. As technology has improved, oils have become more resistant to this, although as a rule of thumb the wider the viscosity spread the more prone it is to happening.

I think what I’m trying to convey is that higher the viscosity of an oil, it has more of a stringent protection based at operating at higher engine temperatures, which if it were a performance car for tracking purposes, then you would want a thicker oil which doesn’t thin at exceeding temperatures. Albeit, oils degrades as heat causes The oil to breakdown at a quicker rate, as you mentioned Group 3 synthetics resists this degradation much better or can be widely used throughout.

BTW, Ford specs 5W-20 for a lot of their passenger cars now for CAFE reasons. I run 5W-30(Mobil 1 usually) for better wear protection at the loss of a couple of tenths of a mile per gallon.

That’s all I ever use is Mobil 1. Both my SHO and GT dealership only offer Motorcraft or Mobil 1, which I would rather have the Added wear protection for performance cars as it is and of course if it calls for it.
 
I think what I’m trying to convey is that higher the viscosity of an oil, it has more of a stringent protection based at operating at higher engine temperatures, which if it were a performance car for tracking purposes, then you would want a thicker oil which doesn’t thin at exceeding temperatures.

I THINK I get what you're trying to say, but the way you're phrasing it honestly doesn't make any sense.

The bottom line is use the correct spec weight for your car. If you are going to be driving under circumstances where temperatures will be very high, it makes sense to move up a grade to keep the actual viscosity the same.

And, yes, oil does start to degrade at higher temperatures. It tends to be more in the form of coking and varnishing, though, rather than all out falling apart to a lower grade. Bad stuff doesn't really start happening until around 250 or 260º F, though, and if you get to that point the oil breaking down is the least of your worries in a street engine.

If you have an engine that can handle those kind of temperatures AND will regularly operate there, you're not going to find an appropriate oil for it on the shelf at your average parts store. If you have an engine like that, you probably know where/how to get the right oil for it too.

If you have a performance street car, bumping it up a grade or two for a track day isn't a bad idea. Check the owner's manual, though, as it will probably have a specific suggestion. Mobil 1 0W-40 and Castrol Edge 5W-50 are popular choices and you can get away with those on the street provided it doesn't get too cold where you live(both are standard street oils with your normal detergent package). Today's engines are "tight" enough, though, that I wouldn't want to stretch it too much and after a track day would probably change back to 5W-30 or whatever you normally run for day to day use.
 
And, yes, oil does start to degrade at higher temperatures. It tends to be more in the form of coking and varnishing, though, rather than all out falling apart to a lower grade. Bad stuff doesn't really start happening until around 250 or 260º F, though, and if you get to that point the oil breaking down is the least of your worries in a street engine.

That got me curious because the N54 in the old E90 operated at ~235 F oil temp on the street. Pushing it would obviously eclipse that 250 F mark easily. And oil specs on a quick google was 5W-30.
 
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I THINK I get what you're trying to say, but the way you're phrasing it honestly doesn't make any sense.

The bottom line is use the correct spec weight for your car. If you are going to be driving under circumstances where temperatures will be very high, it makes sense to move up a grade to keep the actual viscosity the same.

My state doesn’t reach exceedingly high temperatures, but the grade of oil that I’m using now is more than sufficient for its current uses. If I were to track my cars, then I likely would upgrade the oil if need be. Albeit, it can get fairly cold during the winter time, neither of those cars are used and are stored.


And, yes, oil does start to degrade at higher temperatures. It tends to be more in the form of coking and varnishing, though, rather than all out falling apart to a lower grade. Bad stuff doesn't really start happening until around 250 or 260º F, though, and if you get to that point the oil breaking down is the least of your worries in a street engine. .

Just guessing here, but isn’t the optimal operating temperature for an engine approximately at 210°? Anything above that, I would imagine you would be running the car fairly hard and one would want a higher grade of oil regardless.

If you have an engine that can handle those kind of temperatures AND will regularly operate there, you're not going to find an appropriate oil for it on the shelf at your average parts store. If you have an engine like that, you probably know where/how to get the right oil for it too..

For example, I know the Focus RS requires a specific oil ($14 a quart) for tracking, which Ford doesn’t even stock. If your engine is exceeding temperatures above or around 260°, then it would have to be special ordered.

If you have a performance street car, bumping it up a grade or two for a track day isn't a bad idea. Check the owner's manual, though, as it will probably have a specific suggestion. Mobil 1 0W-40 and Castrol Edge 5W-50 are popular choices and you can get away with those on the street provided it doesn't get too cold where you live(both are standard street oils with your normal detergent package). Today's engines are "tight" enough, though, that I wouldn't want to stretch it too much and after a track day would probably change back to 5W-30 or whatever you normally run for day to day use.

I agree. I haven’t tracked either of my cars yet, But I certainly would make sure the oil would be a different grade prior and then changed after tracking. Not to mention, changing the brake fluid, brake pads and inspecting the brake lines.
 
That’s all I ever use is Mobil 1. Both my SHO and GT dealership only offer Motorcraft or Mobil 1, which I would rather have the Added wear protection for performance cars as it is and of course if it calls for it.

My comment was related to the use of 5W-30 and not to any particular brand. Again, Ford specs 5W-20 primarily for CAFE and not optimum wear protection. I'm a lot more comfortable with 5W-30, and I'd take Penzoil yellow bottle or even Walmart Supertech(a surprisingly good oil) in 5W-30 over Mobil 1 5W-20.
 
My comment was related to the use of 5W-30 and not to any particular brand. Again, Ford specs 5W-20 primarily for CAFE and not optimum wear protection. I'm a lot more comfortable with 5W-30, and I'd take Penzoil yellow bottle or even Walmart Supertech(a surprisingly good oil) in 5W-30 over Mobil 1 5W-20.

Walmart Supertech? Never heard of it. Perhaps I’m just going with the brand label because that’s what I know. Again, I’m only offered two choices when having my oil changed at the dealership. Which, leads me to wonder if you can request a specific oil at a dealership? Or can They make any accomendations to that.
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But if you're tracking the car, a thicker oil( such as a 15W-50 as GM recommends) will be better at engine protection when the oil is in the 250-280 F range. The thicker oil though won't be good for the engine for street use..

I can see why. Daily driving wouldn’t be optimal Because thicker oil takes longer to reach critical engine parts just for daily driving at lower speeds. So The higher the oil Viscosity, the less thinning and thickening the motor oil has. You wouldn’t require a much thicker oil unless you want added protection at higher temperatures for added protection, which thicker oil would likely help with better cooling than a Thinner oil would in that sense.
 
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Just guessing here, but isn’t the optimal operating temperature for an engine approximately at 210°? Anything above that, I would imagine you would be running the car fairly hard and one would want a higher grade of oil regardless.

210-220ºF is a good ballpark operating temperature.

Regardless, you're throwing around terminology that doesn't really compute. What are you referring to when you say "higher grade?"

Walmart Supertech? Never heard of it. Perhaps I’m just going with the brand label because that’s what I know. Again, I’m only offered two choices when having my oil changed at the dealership. Which, leads me to wonder if you can request a specific oil at a dealership? Or can They make any accomendations to that.
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I can see why. Daily driving wouldn’t be optimal Because thicker oil takes longer to reach critical engine parts just for daily driving at lower speeds. So The higher the oil Viscosity, the less thinning and thickening the motor oil has. You wouldn’t require a much thicker oil unless you want added protection at higher temperatures for added protection, which thicker oil would likely help with better cooling than a Thinner oil would in that sense.

Supertech is Wal-Mart's house brand. It's API SN rated, and about $13 for a 5 qt. jug. I always go out and stock up on it when my church "winterizes" cars for widowed ladies as it's a great oil at a really great price. I'd have no qualms about using it in my car, and in fact have it in my MG's transmission now.

As for thicker taking longer to reach engine parts-one of the things worth considering is that heavier weights tend to hold residual films better. In the end, I don't know that it makes a huge difference unless the car sits a long time.

In my little microcosm of the car world, when you do engine work more invasive than just draining the oil and refilling it's common to pull the spark plugs and crank the engine until it registers pressure before starting. That also applies to newly rebuilt engines(where you should be using a high zinc break-in oil). With a lot of other engine types, folks will use an electric drill to spin the oil pump and build pressure before starting, although the little MG tractor engines aren't set up such that you can do that. On fresh rebuilds, we also put assembly lube on critical parts like the camshaft lobes to give protection until oil gets there. BTW, these engines are typically run on 20W-50, and the camshaft lobes need a lot of initial protection since there's no direct oil feed to them(they get what's splashed off the crankshaft, but the primary oil feed is what drips down from the rockers into the tappet chest).

You PROBABLY wouldn't hurt anything if you ran something like 15W-40 or 20W-50 year round in a modern car, but you would see some fuel economy losses. I can also tell you that oil that thick makes starting in sub-freezing temperatures...interesting...to say the least.
 
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Not sure how you figure. It's significantly newer/more recent than the Giulia or the 3 series. The 3 series badly needs an update. The A4 is due in 2020. Nothing about it says "left for dead" and nearly every reviewer takes notice.

Sorry, I should have been more specific- dated in the sense of evolutionary styling. The exterior is a bit monotone at this point, it doesn’t look nearly as enticing as most of its competitors. The interior is IMO feels like a knock off of the competitors hackneyed tablet-esque infortainment atrocities at this point that BMW and Mercedes and even Mazda have been using for years now. Considering how new the car is, I would have hoped for something a little more revolutionary than a bland entry level luxury sedan.

I think the 3 series remains a very modern and progressive design on the exterior. The F30 interior has always been terrible. I strongly considered an X3 35d until I sat inside of it, luckily the 2018 model is much improved. BMW hasn’t exactly ever been the leader in interior design as it is. If they use that new bloated kidney grill I think the next generation will be super awkward looking.

I think Lexus in the IS did a fantastic interior and exterior, though it lacks some of the German refinements and could use a slight proportional size increase. Very original design. Not that Volvo has a true contendender in the A4 segment at the moment, but their new models interior asthetic is fantastic (XC90/60/40, V/S90, etc). Porsche also has a great aesthetic going on right now, but again obviously doesn’t have an A4 competitor. I’m just pointing out how these interiors feel far more fresh than the dated, overused, overlysimilar MBZ, BMW, and Audi designs.
 
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210-220ºF is a good ballpark operating temperature.

Regardless, you're throwing around terminology that doesn't really compute. What are you referring to when you say "higher grade?".

Different brands of Synthetic Oil, such as:
  1. AMSOIL Signature Series
  2. Castrol Edge
  3. Lucas Synthetic.
  4. Mobil 1 Extended Performance
  5. Pennzoil Ultra.
  6. Quaker State Ultimate Durability
  7. Red Line Performance
You PROBABLY wouldn't hurt anything if you ran something like 15W-40 or 20W-50 year round in a modern car, but you would see some fuel economy losses. I can also tell you that oil that thick makes starting in sub-freezing temperatures...interesting...to say the least.

Not something I would risk. Especially In Colder climates, that woud be sludge like in trying to reach engine components Before it heats, I can only imagine it probably would not be very beneficial for lubricating the engine/critical engine parts. Perhaps using that oil when temperatures are warmer.
 
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Different brands of Synthetic Oil, such as:
  1. AMSOIL Signature Series
  2. Castrol Edge
  3. Lucas Synthetic.
  4. Mobil 1 Extended Performance
  5. Pennzoil Ultra.
  6. Quaker State Ultimate Durability
  7. Red Line Performance

I'm not big on boutique brands for modern cars. Many of them also don't carry a current API rating(i.e. not one of the ones that you have to pay to license) and I wouldn't be caught dead with a car still in warranty not using the API spec(or newer) that the manual says.

Synthetic has a lot of benefits, but it's also not the end all and be all of oil. As I said, I'd have no qualms taking a high quality blend or even a conventional. Heck, I DO run conventional in my "fun" car. BTW, regardless of whether it says so or not, pretty much anything 5W or 0W is going to be a blend at a minimum.

Not something I would risk. Especially In Colder climates, that woud be sludge like in trying to reach engine components Before it heats, I can only imagine it probably would not be very beneficial for lubricating the engine/critical engine parts. Perhaps using that oil when temperatures are warmer.

There again, I run conventional 20W-50 year round in one car. The first half turn seems to take a herculean effort on the part of the starter in sub-freezing temperatures, but beyond that it cranks okay and builds pressure quickly after it fires. Once again, getting oil to parts quickly isn't AS important when you consider that heavy oils also hold a residual film better.

I'm not saying to run out and put 20W-50 in your car, but don't be afraid to err on the side of a heavier oil.
 
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Synthetic has a lot of benefits, but it's also not the end all and be all of oil. As I said, I'd have no qualms taking a high quality blend or even a conventional. Heck, I DO run conventional in my "fun" car. BTW, regardless of whether it says so or not, pretty much anything 5W or 0W is going to be a blend at a minimum.

I appreciate all your feedback on your oil knowledge. That said, what exactly is your fun car that you’re mentioning in your post?
 
That got me curious because the N54 in the old E90 operated at ~235 F oil temp on the street. Pushing it would obviously eclipse that 250 F mark easily. And oil specs on a quick google was 5W-30.
I'm curious, too. I've read 250-260 is standard operating temperature after a half hour in an E90 in warmer states such as Arizona or Texas. Does the E90 have an oil cooler?

@bunnspecial Can synthetic or natural motor oil ever polymerize in an engine due to being pushed way over its limits?
 
I'm curious, too. I've read 250-260 is standard operating temperature after a half hour in an E90 in warmer states such as Arizona or Texas. Does the E90 have an oil cooler?

Only the RWD 335i with the sports package got the auxiliary oil cooler.
 
Only the RWD 335i with the sports package got the auxiliary oil cooler.
Makes sense when you think about it. In any case, I wouldn't worry about it. Plenty of people own E90s with the N54 and live in hot hells like Texas or Arizona in the summer.
 
Makes sense when you think about it. In any case, I wouldn't worry about it. Plenty of people own E90s with the N54 and live in hot hell holes like Texas or Arizona in the summer.

Yeah but even spirited drives was pushing the N54 into limp mode due to overheating. The aux oil cooler was a mid-year addition and offered as a retrofit to early 2007 MY 335i's. As much of an awesome engine the N54 was for the time, it had a lot of teething issues( overheating, HPFP failures, and horrible valve coking due to a poor PCV design) that were fixed in the N55 and newer engines.

But yeah I am not too worried either. People who track their Camaro's and Corvette's see 260-280 F on their oil temps( and they use the prescribed oil for such use per the owners manual). On the street I am seeing ~195 F when mine gets to operating temp when driven calmly and then rising to ~210-220 F if driven with some spirit( having the RPM hang around 2500-3000 RPM going up a hill around corners).
[doublepost=1522708712][/doublepost]Oooo.... I keep forgetting about this road. Not too far from me and it looks like it will be a fun drive with some very nice scenery. Will have to go soon before the summer hits and I am sure more road traffic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyline_Drive
 
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Not familiar with the 1970 MB MGB. Wondering if there’s any relation or distant cousin to the Austin Healey.
 
Same parent company BMC (British Motor Corporation) but quite different cars.
MG (Morris Garages) was absorbed into the BMC group and generally was the sporty version of others

E.G. Austin 1300, they made an MG 1300 which was a little different in grill design and had some fancy wheels and trim the austin did not.

BMC was well known for "badge engineering"

I my self own a 1966 austin 1100, 1972 austin 1300 vanden plas princess and a 1969 riley elf
 
I think this was one of the winners from the New York Auto show. 2019 Cadillac CT-6 V Sport. Carbon fiber package. It has a very profound 550 HP/627 torque, 4.2 TT V8. 12 inch display, uses touch capactive controls, (Which I do like in my SHO). No price announced, but I’m assuming it’s well over $100,000. Not a huge fan of the wheels. I think the CT-6 looks relevant compared to Japanese and German competition. It has similar modern appeal to Audi and creates more of a timeless, sumptuous look. Good lease option.


FE0BF66A-B393-4A9E-A838-43DA0CC5A4DC.jpeg
 
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I think this was one of the winners from the New York Auto show. 2019 Cadillac CT-6 V Sport. Carbon fiber package. It has a very profound 550 HP/627 torque, 4.2 TT V8. 12 inch display, uses touch capactive controls, (Which I do like in my SHO). No price announced, but I’m assuming it’s well over $100,000. Not a huge fan of the wheels. I think the CT-6 looks relevant compared to Japanese and German competition. It has similar modern appeal to Audi and creates more of a timeless, sumptuous look. Good lease option.


View attachment 756776

Really like the updated styling, especially on the front end. Looks like the headlights are crying though.
 
Not a fan of the crying Cadillac look and I'm not sure the lighting or the color of the car really create a flattering image, but it's a beast and that's cool.
 
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