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The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,329
25,491
Wales, United Kingdom
About £1.45 a litre here now. If my maths is correct I think that’s close to $8 a US gallon. Am I right?

Yep, we have always been rinsed here in fuel duty. Vehicle tax is the next money maker where they are considering giving us the first 4k miles free and charging us by the mile thereafter. Apparently too many people have bought electric cars and there is now a gap in the revenue. You can’t write it.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
93 octane is about $3.60 here and climbing. Since I supercharged my Charger, it runs on 93, and gets about 16 mpg. Not an economy car, but the SPG (Smiles Per Gallon) is much better. 😀
Well? I was just thinking about your Charger. How are things going in terms of the performance? Is it everything that you were hoping for in terms of the rebuild? Any future plans? I’m sure you’ve been smoking every car in your path, given they think your Charger is just a basic RT.😁
 
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Matz

macrumors 65816
Apr 25, 2015
1,161
1,690
Rural Southern Virginia
Well? I was just thinking about your Charger. How are things going in terms of the performance? Is it everything that you were hoping for in terms of the rebuild? Any future plans? I’m sure you’ve been smoking every car in your path, given they think your Charger is just a basic RT.😁
Thanks for asking 😀. It runs well. Don’t know if I mentioned that I took it to another tuner for a second opinion, and now it runs much better. He also installed a Ding transmission valve body, which makes the shifts firmer and supposedly helps the trans handle the torque. Honestly, though, I don’t drive it hard much, but there’s something very satisfying about driving it and knowing what it is capable of. I haven’t had anyone wanting to have a go, yet, but I’m sure the day will come.

There is a local drag strip that has ‘street night’ whereby you can run your daily driver, at a reduced cost, to see what it will do. I’m thinking of seeing what kind of times/trap speeds it will run.

It seems crazy fast, and I’m still getting the feel of it. The roads around here are mostly two-lane and curvy, so I only go to WOT on the straights. I’d hate to put it in the ditch.

I don’t have any plans for additional mods, unless something breaks. It’s pretty much set up the way I want. I like that the long tube headers, tied into the stock exhaust, have a nice sound that isn’t obnoxious. It has a nice idle. I do wish that I could add CarPlay, but the way the UConnect system is set up, that is not possible.

Had some new tires installed this morning, plus an alignment. I was running Michelin Pilot Sports, but the price went way up (50%) since my last set, so I went with Continental Extreme Contacts, which are also an ultra high performance all season tire, and apparently well-regarded. They were about ⅔ of the price of the Michs.

My next task is to wash it, as living here in the country makes for dusty cars.
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,497
Kentucky
Working up a maybe ludicrous project, and I need to get some external opinions before I go there, but I think it may be possible.

First of all, warning, technical content about an old car that some think is a piece of junk, so feel free to skip over if that's you.

So, I've been really happy with my street performance build on the MG engine that was finished up earlier this year. I finally put the "last piece" of it together when I swapped the metering needles in the carbs(SU carburetors work with tapered needles to control metering, not jets like in a typical American caburetor). That really woke the engine up, and made a world of difference.

This was a somewhat "turn key" build, though, and I'm pondering whether there's more there...

I'm running a C/R of 9.6:1 on a ported and polished cast iron head. It needs 93 octane and the timing dialed back a bit(I actually need to have the distributor recurved to better suit this, as there might be a bit more low end/mid range power lingering there) but conventional advice is not to go over 10:1 for a street engine on a cast iron head.

There are available Indian-made alloy heads for this engine. They're not cheap, although I can do better than what Moss Motors charges by a few hundred dollars.

Because alloy heads can dissipate heat MUCH better than cast iron, it's possible to stretch your C/Rs a fair bit and still avoid detonation. That's how my MKZ can run at 10.1:1 on 87...

An alloy head bolted right on to my engine would land me at 9.4-9.5/

With that said, it's pretty widely recognized and agreed that out of the box, the alloy heads are pretty crummy with a lot of casting flash and so forth. They need work out of the box to begin to flow anywhere near what even a stock, unmodified iron head can do.

I have a feeler out to one of the best guys in the business, a retired GM powertrain engineer who races MGs as a hobby and does a lot for MG racers. He also offers what he calls an "80/20" port job, which he describes as "80% of the performance of a race head at 20% of the cost."

If he thinks it's possible and safe, I'm tempted to have him deck a head to give maybe 10.5:1. That would require shaving a LOT of metal off, and I'm not even sure if it's possible to get the chambers down to ~32cc(from a stock 38cc) to get to that low of a volume. Of course the block could potentially be decked a bit also, but again I don't know how much. Valve clearance could be a big issue, and it's possible I'd even need an oddball cam like a one with a bit less lift and/or shorter duration on exhaust to prevent it(plus VERY careful cam timing). The reduced lift and/or shorter duration could potentially be partially compensated for with a larger valve...BUT there's also not a ton of room to do that without eating into the intake seat and possibly having to kill some of the work by increasing chamber volume in that dimension.

Stock pistons for this engine are dished with a volume of 6cc. If I could find a flat piston, that actually lands at 10.5:1 with a 38cc(stock) chamber. Back in the day, the factory special tuning guidelines and the associated department actually went to flat pistons I think at what the tuning manual called a "stage 3"(fast road) tune, or that may have been a 3B semi-race tune. That of course was with a cast iron head, although back in the 60s high octane leaded gas was easy to get and of course they made flat pistons.

Over 50 years later, I don't know of anyone making flat pistons as a regular stock item. They'd be special order, which gets VERY expensive...

I know others in this thread have been very vocal about not enjoying reading about my tinkering with old cars, so I hope this post will be tolerated. This sort of stuff is fascinating to me, as it comes from a time where increasing performance meant all of this sort of careful work with modifying engine parts and then spending time physically changing parts and evaluating the results to get to the best possible. It's a lot different from plugging a computer into the OBDII port and changing this stuff around, but it's fascinating in its own right to me, and I enjoy it because it makes me actually understand what's going on.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,098
56,149
Behind the Lens, UK
Working up a maybe ludicrous project, and I need to get some external opinions before I go there, but I think it may be possible.

First of all, warning, technical content about an old car that some think is a piece of junk, so feel free to skip over if that's you.

So, I've been really happy with my street performance build on the MG engine that was finished up earlier this year. I finally put the "last piece" of it together when I swapped the metering needles in the carbs(SU carburetors work with tapered needles to control metering, not jets like in a typical American caburetor). That really woke the engine up, and made a world of difference.

This was a somewhat "turn key" build, though, and I'm pondering whether there's more there...

I'm running a C/R of 9.6:1 on a ported and polished cast iron head. It needs 93 octane and the timing dialed back a bit(I actually need to have the distributor recurved to better suit this, as there might be a bit more low end/mid range power lingering there) but conventional advice is not to go over 10:1 for a street engine on a cast iron head.

There are available Indian-made alloy heads for this engine. They're not cheap, although I can do better than what Moss Motors charges by a few hundred dollars.

Because alloy heads can dissipate heat MUCH better than cast iron, it's possible to stretch your C/Rs a fair bit and still avoid detonation. That's how my MKZ can run at 10.1:1 on 87...

An alloy head bolted right on to my engine would land me at 9.4-9.5/

With that said, it's pretty widely recognized and agreed that out of the box, the alloy heads are pretty crummy with a lot of casting flash and so forth. They need work out of the box to begin to flow anywhere near what even a stock, unmodified iron head can do.

I have a feeler out to one of the best guys in the business, a retired GM powertrain engineer who races MGs as a hobby and does a lot for MG racers. He also offers what he calls an "80/20" port job, which he describes as "80% of the performance of a race head at 20% of the cost."

If he thinks it's possible and safe, I'm tempted to have him deck a head to give maybe 10.5:1. That would require shaving a LOT of metal off, and I'm not even sure if it's possible to get the chambers down to ~32cc(from a stock 38cc) to get to that low of a volume. Of course the block could potentially be decked a bit also, but again I don't know how much. Valve clearance could be a big issue, and it's possible I'd even need an oddball cam like a one with a bit less lift and/or shorter duration on exhaust to prevent it(plus VERY careful cam timing). The reduced lift and/or shorter duration could potentially be partially compensated for with a larger valve...BUT there's also not a ton of room to do that without eating into the intake seat and possibly having to kill some of the work by increasing chamber volume in that dimension.

Stock pistons for this engine are dished with a volume of 6cc. If I could find a flat piston, that actually lands at 10.5:1 with a 38cc(stock) chamber. Back in the day, the factory special tuning guidelines and the associated department actually went to flat pistons I think at what the tuning manual called a "stage 3"(fast road) tune, or that may have been a 3B semi-race tune. That of course was with a cast iron head, although back in the 60s high octane leaded gas was easy to get and of course they made flat pistons.

Over 50 years later, I don't know of anyone making flat pistons as a regular stock item. They'd be special order, which gets VERY expensive...

I know others in this thread have been very vocal about not enjoying reading about my tinkering with old cars, so I hope this post will be tolerated. This sort of stuff is fascinating to me, as it comes from a time where increasing performance meant all of this sort of careful work with modifying engine parts and then spending time physically changing parts and evaluating the results to get to the best possible. It's a lot different from plugging a computer into the OBDII port and changing this stuff around, but it's fascinating in its own right to me, and I enjoy it because it makes me actually understand what's going on.
I find it interesting. Even if a lot of it is over my (piston) head! 😀
 

Nütztjanix

macrumors 68000
Jul 31, 2019
1,535
985
Germany
I'm wondering how much you would gain, in relation to what cost?
Would it improve the car substantially in terms of power/fun? How big is the risk of ruining the engine?

If you think the expected improvements justify the risk and cost — go for it! It's a hobby after all, isn't it? :)
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
Thanks for asking 😀. It runs well. Don’t know if I mentioned that I took it to another tuner for a second opinion, and now it runs much better. He also installed a Ding transmission valve body, which makes the shifts firmer and supposedly helps the trans handle the torque. Honestly, though, I don’t drive it hard much, but there’s something very satisfying about driving it and knowing what it is capable of. I haven’t had anyone wanting to have a go, yet, but I’m sure the day will come.

There is a local drag strip that has ‘street night’ whereby you can run your daily driver, at a reduced cost, to see what it will do. I’m thinking of seeing what kind of times/trap speeds it will run.

It seems crazy fast, and I’m still getting the feel of it. The roads around here are mostly two-lane and curvy, so I only go to WOT on the straights. I’d hate to put it in the ditch.

I don’t have any plans for additional mods, unless something breaks. It’s pretty much set up the way I want. I like that the long tube headers, tied into the stock exhaust, have a nice sound that isn’t obnoxious. It has a nice idle. I do wish that I could add CarPlay, but the way the UConnect system is set up, that is not possible.

Had some new tires installed this morning, plus an alignment. I was running Michelin Pilot Sports, but the price went way up (50%) since my last set, so I went with Continental Extreme Contacts, which are also an ultra high performance all season tire, and apparently well-regarded. They were about ⅔ of the price of the Michs.

My next task is to wash it, as living here in the country makes for dusty cars.
I remember you mentioning the second tuner that kind of had to rectify the mistakes made from the first one. Let me tell you, once you find a good tuner, stick with em’. I think what makes your build so unique when you look at your Charger, is that you’ve already known the car from when it was stock, and now you had to re-learn the car when it was modified, so you know exactly how it performs at any given time. (Versus buying into a car that was already modified and not knowing even where to start if it wasn’t running properly.)

So here is my question for you, do you think you would ever sell your Charger? Or is this something that you plan on keeping and eventually handing it down? Like, say somebody offers you a really tempting number, would you do it?

I learned something from the best tuner up here in the Midwest, (His name is Lydio Lacobelli with Alternative Auto Performance), he told me “That tuning is never a perfect situation when you’re adjusting fuel ratios, shift points, idle, ect, but a good tuner won’t quit and will always continue to troubleshoot until everything is running optimally as it can be.”

He tuned/dyno-ed my Cobra. And it’s nice to know that I’m re-invited if I ever have any concerns or questions there is some thing I need in the future. That’s got to be a really challenging industry, and probably only the most experienced tuners survive at a successful level.

Apple CarPlay is nice to have, but I’ve always been happy with UConnect, even with Apple CarPlay being included in my Scat, I think UConnect is the best infotainment available.

I think Michelin are the best tires on the market, but Continental is literally right next to them. Either way, you didn’t go wrong with that choice. The tire brand that I can’t stand is Perelli. I switch those tires out, in terms of performance, the treadwear is terrible and I don’t care for the grip at all.

But speaking of dust, is we just had upgrades sewer lines installed in our street this summer (So sections of the road were under construction), and it hasn’t rained much at all, and the dust is absolutely frustrating. Even with the garage shut, it still makes its way into there somehow and coats everything. And it’s like the worst type of dust possible, is that gritty/sandy light dust, so I had to be really careful when detailing not to scratch the clearcoat.

But I love detailing, but not to that extreme like it was these last three months. But I don’t think you see snow where you’re from, so at least you get more enjoyment year round.
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,497
Kentucky
I'm wondering how much you would gain, in relation to what cost?
Would it improve the car substantially in terms of power/fun? How big is the risk of ruining the engine?

If you think the expected improvements justify the risk and cost — go for it! It's a hobby after all, isn't it? :)

All of those are very fair questions.

First of all, as far as hurting the car:

I built a VERY strong bottom end with quality machining, good bearings, and the like, and all held together(main caps and bg end caps) with ARP hardware. The machine work was top quality, and included line boring both the crank and cam bearings, and of course big end sizing. Not that any of the above is abnormal work in a rebuild, but it sets you up for a long life on the rebuild and for everything to run at its peak.

The 5 main forged crankshafts are strong. The journal diameters are actually similar to what you'd find on a Small Block Chevy, the metallurgy on the forged cranks is top notch, and if you compare them side-by-side with an SBC not only do you have as much metal but you only have a single rod riding between each main bearing as opposed to 2.

The gearbox and differential were used on the MGC(~120hp) and MGB GT V8(~135hp, often tuned much higher) so the strength is definitely there in the power train.

What would it gain? I don't know. We often discuss when building these engines, and with any engine work in general, that increasing the static compression ratio is the single biggest "bang for buck" power improvement you can do. Would jumping from 9.6:1 to 10.5:1 be as dramatic as going from 8.8 to 9.6? I don't know. Would it improve some? There's no doubt about that. Most of the racers are running that or higher.

Would it be a ton of fun to prove it can work on a street car with street gas? Heck yes! I'd be sort of going into uncharted territory with it, so might end up chasing my tail a bit doing things like upsizing the carbs(kind of wish I'd held onto that rare 1 3/4" dual factory competition manifold I had a while back, although a 1 1/2" manifold is fairly easily modified to 1 3/4") and then getting those dialed in, but I think it can be done.

At the end of the day, I've put enough time and money into this that I could have V6 swapped it, or wouldn't be far away from having Pete Mantell(whose shop is a few hours from me) do a full supercharged 5.0L Windsor crate engine swap that's turning out north of 400hp...but that might almost be too much.
 
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Matz

macrumors 65816
Apr 25, 2015
1,161
1,690
Rural Southern Virginia
I remember you mentioning the second tuner that kind of had to rectify the mistakes made from the first one. Let me tell you, once you find a good tuner, stick with em’. I think what makes your build so unique when you look at your Charger, is that you’ve already known the car from when it was stock, and now you had to re-learn the car when it was modified, so you know exactly how it performs at any given time. (Versus buying into a car that was already modified and not knowing even where to start if it wasn’t running properly.)

So here is my question for you, do you think you would ever sell your Charger? Or is this something that you plan on keeping and eventually handing it down? Like, say somebody offers you a really tempting number, would you do it?

I learned something from the best tuner up here in the Midwest, (His name is Lydio Lacobelli with Alternative Auto Performance), he told me “That tuning is never a perfect situation when you’re adjusting fuel ratios, shift points, idle, ect, but a good tuner won’t quit and will always continue to troubleshoot until everything is running optimally as it can be.”

He tuned/dyno-ed my Cobra. And it’s nice to know that I’m re-invited if I ever have any concerns or questions there is some thing I need in the future. That’s got to be a really challenging industry, and probably only the most experienced tuners survive at a successful level.

Apple CarPlay is nice to have, but I’ve always been happy with UConnect, even with Apple CarPlay being included in my Scat, I think UConnect is the best infotainment available.

I think Michelin are the best tires on the market, but Continental is literally right next to them. Either way, you didn’t go wrong with that choice. The tire brand that I can’t stand is Perelli. I switch those tires out, in terms of performance, the treadwear is terrible and I don’t care for the grip at all.

But speaking of dust, is we just had upgrades sewer lines installed in our street this summer (So sections of the road were under construction), and it hasn’t rained much at all, and the dust is absolutely frustrating. Even with the garage shut, it still makes its way into there somehow and coats everything. And it’s like the worst type of dust possible, is that gritty/sandy light dust, so I had to be really careful when detailing not to scratch the clearcoat.

But I love detailing, but not to that extreme like it was these last three months. But I don’t think you see snow where you’re from, so at least you get more enjoyment year round.
Interesting question regarding selling my Charger. It crossed my mind, but I figured I was keeping it long term. That said, for a tempting number, I’d consider selling it. But I don’t see that happening; my understanding is that heavily modified cars are tough to sell. I’ll continue to drive and maintain it as if I’m going to keep it until I drop. FWIW, I got an oil sampling kit from Blackstone, and am going to send in a sample at my next oil change.

Regarding tuning, Dave Katz (EFI Specialties and Performance) is very conscientious, and I’ve made a second trip to his shop for follow up. I could see going a third time at some point, as tuning seems to be an iterative process, and as mentioned, I’m still getting to know this car since the rebuilt engine.

I agree, Michelins are the top of the heap, and I’ve chosen them for decades. So far I like the Contis. Time will tell.

No snow to speak of here, except for the occasional 5 or 6 inch “storm” that happens maybe once a year, sometimes every two years. I sometimes miss the challenges of winter driving, having lived in the Central Rockies of Colorado for quite a few years. But I don’t miss having two sets of tires (one being dedicated snow tires) for each car.

Speaking of detailing, now that retirement has been thrust upon me (my company terminated my employment due to an overall force reduction day before yesterday), I expect to have more time to keep my Charger looking the way I used to keep my cars, which is to say pretty clean.
 
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ionasdf

macrumors regular
Apr 21, 2021
140
494
Finland
Fun to see gearheadism alive even on a tech forum. I doubt I'll post here much but figured I'd drop in to say hi and show off my cars.

Here's my mostly self built (aka ruined) summer car. Japanese import Turbo MR2. Engine and power train bone stock apart from the usual trinity of turbo flow mods ("cold" air intake, full exhaust, intercooler). It is my daily driver in summer so I don't need the added pain from power gains. Rest of the car is not so stock, I've built it to maximize my smile on any turn be it on my work commute or a twisty back road. And of course I have done so with total disregard to sensible things like comfort, practicality, wet grip, or even straight line drivability. It always brightens up my day and it is always sad to store it away for winter, as I just did few days ago.

IMG_2897.JPG
 
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44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
Fun to see gearheadism alive even on a tech forum. I doubt I'll post here much but figured I'd drop in to say hi and show off my cars.

Here's my mostly self built (aka ruined) summer car. Japanese import Turbo MR2. Engine and power train bone stock apart from the usual trinity of turbo flow mods ("cold" air intake, full exhaust, intercooler). It is my daily driver in summer so I don't need the added pain from power gains. Rest of the car is not so stock, I've built it to maximize my smile on any turn be it on my work commute or a twisty back road. And of course I have done so with total disregard to sensible things like comfort, practicality, wet grip, or even straight line drivability. It always brightens up my day and it is always sad to store it away for winter, as I just did few days ago.
Welcome! You’ll find lots of gearheads in here, some of us have pretty heavily modified muscle cars, electric, classics, etc. And open to discuss whatever.

Love the wheel set up by the way.

Winter is a downer here too. It’s that unfortunate time of year where all I can do is stand in my heated garage and just look at the cars and imagine driving them. (I know…it’s weird, but it has to suffice until spring).😁
 

Nütztjanix

macrumors 68000
Jul 31, 2019
1,535
985
Germany
Ha, I actually love it when it snows. It's always fun to see all the modern, electronics-overloaded cars struggle (and their drivers even more so) while I'm driving along in my early-nineties Syncro without much hassle. Driving in the snow is so much fun!
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,098
56,149
Behind the Lens, UK
Ha, I actually love it when it snows. It's always fun to see all the modern, electronics-overloaded cars struggle (and their drivers even more so) while I'm driving along in my early-nineties Syncro without much hassle. Driving in the snow is so much fun!
Especially in a big empty car park. Where I work there is a small incline from the main road to the car park. All the front wheel drive cars just pull in with a steady constant speed. The rear wheel drive cars don’t quite manage it and require a push. But I think it’s as much to do with the driver as the car!
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
Ha, I actually love it when it snows. It's always fun to see all the modern, electronics-overloaded cars struggle (and their drivers even more so) while I'm driving along in my early-nineties Syncro without much hassle. Driving in the snow is so much fun!
A set of winter tires are often over-looked and are crucial in snow covered roads/environments. I have two cars that have Bridgestone Blizzaks setups for winter driving and albeit they’re a bit pricey, you feel a lot more confident on the roads.

The only concern to me, isn’t my driving, it’s the other drivers that are have no due regard in inclement weather.
 
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ionasdf

macrumors regular
Apr 21, 2021
140
494
Finland
Love the wheel set up by the way.
Thanks! Japanese sourced original run TE37's, glass bead blasted and painted matte black.

IMG_0417.JPG


IMG_3095.JPG


They don't look as nice anymore though, a lot or stone chips especially on rear wheels.

Winter is a downer here too. It’s that unfortunate time of year where all I can do is stand in my heated garage and just look at the cars and imagine driving them. (I know…it’s weird, but it has to suffice until spring).😁
I used to go and sit in mine and just feel sad that I can't drive it. Hated that feeling so much that when my bank account was OK with it, I shipped a cure from Japan. 😉

IMG_7419.JPG


Unfortunately the cure turned out into a bit of a nightmare. It was graded 4 (aka "Good" in Japanese auctions) but turned out to be a total dog with blown turbo and a cracked piston. And since I used all my extra savings just for the car, it went into storage until I had saved enough to pay for an engine rebuild and refurbished turbo which I swapped over myself.

Home stretch now and I actually went and picked it up from rust proofing this morning, now I just need to tidy the whole thing up and throw engine heater on it with all the parts which I have collected for it over the two years it stood in storage. I'm beyond excited.

A set of winter tires are often over-looked and are crucial in snow covered roads/environments. I have two cars that have Bridgestone Blizzaks setups for winter driving and albeit they’re a bit pricey, you feel a lot more confident on the roads.

The only concern to me, isn’t my driving, it’s the other drivers that are have no due regard in inclement weather.
Here in proper north we (usually) have proper winters so law mandates all drivers to use actual winter tires, and all seasons don't count. Most people actually use studded tires which are very bad for roads and air quality when the winter is mild and roads are dry but at least it means you'll be less likely to get rear ended by some novice driver with the ever changing and sudden ice conditions.

Engine and power train bone stock
Small correction to my earlier post, it has lightweight flywheel and Exedy stage 2 clutch. For some reason those two mods just escaped from my head, best not to type long posts just before going to bed it seems. 😅
 

Matz

macrumors 65816
Apr 25, 2015
1,161
1,690
Rural Southern Virginia
Ha, I actually love it when it snows. It's always fun to see all the modern, electronics-overloaded cars struggle (and their drivers even more so) while I'm driving along in my early-nineties Syncro without much hassle. Driving in the snow is so much fun!
I, too, love to drive in the snow. In south central VA, snow of any depth (>6") happens so rarely anymore that it is an epic event when it does. The roads, apart from the interstates, are mostly devoid of traffic and schools and even businesses shut down. I go out in it even if I don't have anywhere in particular to go. It's that much fun.

When I lived in the Central Rockies, snow covered roads were a fact of life for a significant part of the year. I ran Michelin X-ice tires on all four corners, even in a two-wheel drive car, and never had a problem with traction, steering, or braking

I look at driving on snow and ice as being comparable to snow skiing, in that staying relaxed, hands light on the wheel, and making small, subtle adjustments, along with looking farther ahead (rather than right in front of the car) works well. I generally used acceleration more than braking.

Spending two days of driving classes on a frozen lake helped me to appreciate the nuances of driving on ice.
 
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