The Car Thread ... !

[cyb3rdud3]

Plaids are only LHD… So they aren’t “designed“ for the UK. There are RHD S/X, just not Plaids (from my understanding). So if there were speed regulations in the UK that prevented the sale of plaids, it would be irrelevant to Tesla.

I also, though I saw somewhere that Tesla was canceling orders for all RHD S/X. Meaning they were only going to be LHD sales...

Tesla Model S Plaid Left-Hand Drive: Worth Buying In The UK?

Despite customer complaints, the Model S Plaid has now arrived in the UK in left-hand-drive-only form. Is its immense performance worth the compromise?

www.forbes.com

I’m European, the UK is just a small island within Europe and not representative for the rest. There weren’t any rules preventing them from being on sale and there are people who have them in LHD. They are road legal.

The cyber truck however is classed as a light duty vehicle so that would prevent people from having a valid driving licence. Then it is also too rigid for European laws which includes the UK regarding pedestrian safety. The vehicle must absorb the energy in an impact and this effectively have crumple zones etc. The USA doesn’t have any such meaningful laws to protect pedestrians and other weaker participants. That is the issue, not the size of the vehicle.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Sorry. It’s hard to get tone across via text. I didn’t mean it that way. Just pointing out the alternative to the points brought up with the Cybertruck accident. It is being criticized for not crumpling enough when someone hit it, it’s being criticized for lack of pedestrian safety. I don’t mean you. These are points I never hear brought up when discussing ICE full sized trucks, yet the same issues apply.

I do enjoy this conversation, sorry if it came across as an attack.

These points are also brought up when other trucks are put up for sale. And those that adhere can be sold, those that don’t won’t. It has nothing to do with EV or Tesla vs the rest. It’s just looking out for weaker participants in traffic when sharing the road space.

If anything it’s the lack of regulation in the US vs the rest of the world way more than EV vs ICE.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

Yes, that is a decent video not only regarding the effect of weather on a battery, but also what one is loosing out on with some of the more inefficient, and cheaper platforms.

Our Polestar not only has battery pre-conditioning both by navigation (needs about 15-minute drive), but also by start before departing (so just tell it when you are aiming to leave and the battery will be optimised when the car is plugged in). Then there is also a heat pump, so no concerns or considering around running HVAC etc.

In my experience, when road tripping this actually becomes irrelevant, I mean one would set off with a charged battery and then drive exceeding 200 miles (ca. 322 kilometres) before the next charge. Therefore, no need for yo-yo, or preconditioning etc. The temperature is there regardless. But I acknowledge that Alyssa mentions that she doesn't charge at home, and often goes to EA before setting off. Personally, I would just change that behaviour, so one has got a huge time advantage. But that is a choice.

Me personally, I would not get a VAG electric car. Something they have just missed consistently in their platforms across Volkswagen and Audi that doesn't make it the great experience it can be.

Agree. The iD4 does not have a battery warming feature like several EV's do. This feature allows for warming the battery enough to allow a faster rate of charge at the scheduled charge station ahead. The video host has another video where he explains which EV's have it and how it works:

 

[AlaskaMoose]

I’m not sure I understand the issue… They are concerned about the fact that one vehicle is more rigid, has more mass and has the ability to better protect its occupants in a wreck? If this was really an issue they should be more concerned about ALL “large” vehicles on the road. Try running into a semi, or full size pickup/suv with a tin can like in this accident, it’s what’s going to happen. The CT is a full sized pickup truck, not a small Ford Ranger.

The Toyota did it’s job, it protected its occupants as best as it could in a vehicle that has limited space for crumpling up against a vehicle that weighs, what 4x it’s weight?

This is another nonstory looking to take down something different. The CT likely only has to have body panels replaced from an accident where someone who is at fault hit them. That’s the story.

The issue with the Cubertruck relates to the safety of the occupants in other vehicles, not the ones in the Cybertruck. The reports have nothing to do with being "another anti-EV news." Other EV's, including trucks, have bumpers that collapse or break to pieces during an impact. It is the difference between a person being hit with the front of an armored tank, a truck with softer bumpers. Lest wait and see if the European nations will accept the Cybertruck's rigid exterior design, or not.

The front bumper and grill of my Tundra truck are made of a very strong and flexible plastic. Most non-military trucks are designed this way. The Tundra is quite heavy (a great mass moving forward), but the body panels can be easily bent with one's hand.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

I'm not sure whether you have ever charged an EV, but that isn't really how it works. And when I mentioned that duration, that is inclusive of everything, not just sit on there to do a number 2

You know, take a typical motorway service station, say when driving from Lago di Garda in Italy to the Côte d'Azur. Ionity only costs me 30 cents so I prefer those. https://www.google.com/maps/place/IONITY+Charging+Station/@43.9585254,8.1334948,277m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x12d25daf24afddb1:0x7a44b7a3f9cf24ab!8m2!3d43.9591722!4d8.134168!16s/g/11j9mg877_?entry=ttu

View attachment 2330640

As per a road trip, your car is full, wife, and child(ren), dog etc. with you. You don't go to a petrol filling place and wait with the vehicle, boom, immediate time saved. You park in a charging bay, and get out and plug the car in immediate. The car is charging already before the children are even out and huff and puff about how hot it is!

So realistically, by the time everyone is out and ready to walk to the service building, the car is already charging for five minutes or so.

Then you go in, got to find the toilets (its a road trip right, they are all in different places and you typically haven't been there before). I get done in a few minutes with handwashing and drying, wait for the wife and children who are doing god knows what.

Then you get you coffee's, iced machiatto green mache whatever thingies, etc. Wait for them to be made, and pay.

Then walk to the vehicle. And everybody gets back in again.

Yes, a typical stop easily has the car charged up again.

And that is when people are non-smokers. If one is a smoker you can add another 7 minutes to you stop.

And remember, you don't have to wait with your vehicle to charger it unlike Petrol/Diesel. Nor go to a separate queue to pay for fuel. Nor after filling up parking it up again.

Your experiences may differ, but nope a typical stop on motorway services when on a roadtrip is easily 20-30 minutes. No problem at all for a car to be charged sufficiently to do it all again in 3 hours

And yup, we really were there. This is no fiction, just real life. BTW We were there from the UK, and the other Polestar was from Sweden. People road trip in EVs everyday.

What would be very interesting to know are the EV and ICE automobile long range driving accounts through Europe. It seems that there are conflicting stories to tell from both EVs and ICE vehicles' long distance drivers in relation to the cost and charging speeds versus fueling cost and speed at each stop. For example the following video shows two drivers on a long road trip through England, one driving an ICE automobile, and the other an EV. This is video #3 of 3 that is much of a summary of the long road trip. The three videos are very long and detailed, and should be quite interesting to a lot of drivers (I watched them already), but this one tells the total times, distances, and cost:

As some others have mentioned, it seems that if one charges at home, one can save a lot more than charging along the commercial charging network. Fueling along the road is not cheap at all, but the average small to medium size sedan and SUV with a four to six cylinder engine can achieve long drive ranges.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Agree. The iD4 does not have a battery warming feature like several EV's do. This feature allows for warming the battery enough to allow a faster rate of charge at the scheduled charge station ahead. The video host has another video where he explains which EV's have it and how it works:

A heat pump comes as an optional extra on an ID4 according to VW’s website. It’s the same platform as our Q4 and we have a heat pump on ours that conditions the battery. This makes a huge difference in cold climates. Q4 owners in Finland are reporting good cold performance and I regularly see posts on the groups about this very topic.

Worth the extra £900 when speccing the car IMO.

 

[Chuckeee]

A heat pump comes as an optional extra on an ID4 according to VW’s website. It’s the same platform as our Q4 and we have a heat pump on ours that conditions the battery. This makes a huge difference in cold climates. Q4 owners in Finland are reporting good cold performance and I regularly see posts on the groups about this very topic.

Did you mean a heater. “Heat pump” requires a thermal mass for the transfer to heat something. Air sourced “heat pumps”require moderate air temperatures (not something you find in a cold climate) and ground sourced “heat pumps” are not compatible with a moving vehicle.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Did you mean a heater. “Heat pump” requires a thermal mass for the transfer to heat something. Air sourced “heat pumps”require moderate air temperatures (not something you find in a cold climate) and ground sourced “heat pumps” are not compatible with a moving vehicle.

The heat pump in our Q4 uses the heat generated from the electrical components and outside air. This is recommended to be capable down to -25C, but users are finding the system suitable at -35C which is far below any temperatures I will ever encounter. Finland is pretty extreme and probably similar to other northern hemisphere countries extremes.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Did you mean a heater. “Heat pump” requires a thermal mass for the transfer to heat something. Air sourced “heat pumps”require moderate air temperatures (not something you find in a cold climate) and ground sourced “heat pumps” are not compatible with a moving vehicle.

Nope it’s a heat pump technology. It is compatible with cars. Several have them.

Energy saving heat pump | Polestar UK

A climate-optimised cabin and an extended real-life range. The heat pump included in the Polestar 2 Plus pack makes sure that waste heat doesn’t go to waste.

www.polestar.com

 

[JT2002TJ]

The issue with the Cubertruck relates to the safety of the occupants in other vehicles, not the ones in the Cybertruck. The reports have nothing to do with being "another anti-EV news." Other EV's, including trucks, have bumpers that collapse or break to pieces during an impact. It is the difference between a person being hit with the front of an armored tank, a truck with softer bumpers. Lest wait and see if the European nations will accept the Cybertruck's rigid exterior design, or not.

The front bumper and grill of my Tundra truck are made of a very strong and flexible plastic. Most non-military trucks are designed this way. The Tundra is quite heavy (a great mass moving forward), but the body panels can be easily bent with one's hand.

The accident was a side impact... The Toyota hit the CT in the side, not the bumpers. Side impacts are rated for the passengers within the vehicle that is impacted, not the other way around. The crumple zone of the impacting vehicle is responsible for that vehicle's passenger safety. Are we going to invent new tests to call out the CT design? The story indicated that the CT driver had minor injuries and passengers had no injuries, so the CT did it's job.

The CT has bumpers front and rear below the SS... My Ram had chrome bumpers, (see the picture I posted), there is no pedestrian crumple zone, yet... I haven't heard of it being the end of the world. The 4th Gen Rams had that since 2009, and the 3rd Gen Ram I had before that also had steel bumpers. Almost every American Pickup comes with steel bumpers (there are the sport versions with plastic body color matching as well), it is an option to get a version without.

The pedestrian issue is 100% being brought up because it is an EV. It is a non-story... There are millions and millions of more 1500/f150 on this planet than CTs... But yet, the story has not made its way to US news like the CT has...

 

[Herdfan]

Almost every American Pickup comes with steel bumpers (there are the sport versions with plastic body color matching as well), it is an option to get a version without.

And there is a steel bumper behind it. No crumple zone.

 

[JT2002TJ]

And there is a steel bumper behind it. No crumple zone.

Exactly...

 

[cyb3rdud3]

The accident was a side impact... The Toyota hit the CT in the side, not the bumpers. Side impacts are rated for the passengers within the vehicle that is impacted, not the other way around. The crumple zone of the impacting vehicle is responsible for that vehicle's passenger safety. Are we going to invent new tests to call out the CT design? The story indicated that the CT driver had minor injuries and passengers had no injuries, so the CT did it's job.

The CT has bumpers front and rear below the SS... My Ram had chrome bumpers, (see the picture I posted), there is no pedestrian crumple zone, yet... I haven't heard of it being the end of the world. The 4th Gen Rams had that since 2009, and the 3rd Gen Ram I had before that also had steel bumpers. Almost every American Pickup comes with steel bumpers (there are the sport versions with plastic body color matching as well), it is an option to get a version without.

The pedestrian issue is 100% being brought up because it is an EV. It is a non-story... There are millions and millions of more 1500/f150 on this planet than CTs... But yet, the story has not made its way to US news like the CT has...

No it isn’t. The CT is only in the news because it is the latest model and it is cool. But in countries where weaker participants in traffic are valued we can’t get it in its current form. It’s not anti EV, it’s not anti CyberTruck, it’s not anti Tesla. It’s just a shame that the designers were lazy and didn’t apply pedestrian safety concerns and instead hid behind obscure laws where light duty vehicles don’t have to comply. And sure there are other vehicles that are not compliant, but let’s face it they aren’t news worthy.

 

[JT2002TJ]

No it isn’t. The CT is only in the news because it is the latest model and it is cool. But in countries where weaker participants in traffic are valued we can’t get it in its current form. It’s not anti EV, it’s not anti CyberTruck, it’s not anti Tesla. It’s just a shame that the designers were lazy and didn’t apply pedestrian safety concerns and instead hid behind obscure laws where light duty vehicles don’t have to comply. And sure there are other vehicles that are not compliant, but let’s face it they aren’t news worthy.

US pickup trucks all fail this pedestrian safety. CT is a US pickup truck. It is not for sale in Europe, again, complaining about this is the equivalent of saying the CT can't fit in a compact spot. It is a Pickup truck designed and sold for the US market, where pickup trucks are the number one selling form of vehicle. Why should the CT be incorrectly designed its actual market? It's not lazy, it is designed for its target market...

It IS a story because it is a combination of Tesla vehicle AND an EV. Otherwise just like every other US full sized non-compliant pickup truck that is actually on European roads today (Ram, Ford, Chevy, GM) it would not be a story...

 

[jz0309]

US pickup trucks all fail this pedestrian safety. CT is a US pickup truck. It is not for sale in Europe, again, complaining about this is the equivalent of saying the CT can't fit in a compact spot. It is a Pickup truck designed and sold for the US market, where pickup trucks are the number one selling form of vehicle. Why should the CT be incorrectly designed its actual market? It's not lazy, it is designed for its target market...

It IS a story because it is a combination of Tesla vehicle AND an EV. Otherwise just like every other US full sized non-compliant pickup truck that is actually on European roads today (Ram, Ford, Chevy, GM) it would not be a story...

^^THIS. Bottom line, in the US pedestrians are second class citizens when it comes to traffic ...

 

[Herdfan]

^^THIS. Bottom line, in the US pedestrians are second class citizens when it comes to traffic ...

Not is some US cities. Take Columbus for example. In the crosswalks around Nationwide Arena, pedestrians have the RoW. And they bully cars with it when there is a concert.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Not is some US cities. Take Columbus for example. In the crosswalks around Nationwide Arena, pedestrians have the RoW. And they bully cars with it when there is a concert.

Still pointless whether they have row or not if the get hit which is the point of crumple zones.

Road space sharing is for everyone, we all have a duty to watch out for the weaker participants. 👍

 

[AlaskaMoose]

And there is a steel bumper behind it. No crumple zone.

The bumpers on the two trucks I have don't have a strong steel plate behind the plastic bumper. However the two front areas of the frame be each side of the engine support the front suspension and the engine. The solid bumpers are used in the very large trucks and heavy equipment.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

A heat pump comes as an optional extra on an ID4 according to VW’s website. It’s the same platform as our Q4 and we have a heat pump on ours that conditions the battery. This makes a huge difference in cold climates. Q4 owners in Finland are reporting good cold performance and I regularly see posts on the groups about this very topic.

According to the video, the iD4 does not have a battery heater that allows for heating the battery before arriving to a charge station. So if its battery is nearly discharged when you arrive at the charging station, the battery is very cold and will take a long time for it to charge. There is another video where the host demonstrated what is called, "yo-yo" driving the iD4 in order to charge it at a faster rate (two iD4's are driven, one normally, and the other drive "yo-yo").

I believe that some of the Tesla automobiles have a feature that, if activated, pre-warms the battery before you arrive at the charge station. Just watch the entire video I posted above; all is explained by the video's host.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

According to the video, the iD4 does not have a battery heater that allows for heating the battery before arriving to a charge station. So if its battery is nearly discharged when you arrive at the charging station, the battery is very cold and will take a long time for it to charge. There is another video where the host demonstrated what is called, "yo-yo" driving the iD4 in order to charge it at a faster rate (two iD4's are driven, one normally, and the other drive "yo-yo").

It’s not really a scenario I can relate to or answer. The only public charging I have done is usually at the end of a run where the car is warm. Beyond that I have no answers for this type of need.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

It’s not really a scenario I can relate to or answer. The only public charging I have done is usually at the end of a run where the car is warm. Beyond that I have no answers for this type of need.

I understand. I am assuming that scenario I was referring to is most common for drivers who charge their vehicles along the road system during the winter. The video refers to charging speed of batteries that are nearly discharged and cold. A lot of drivers don't realize that once the vehicle is being driven in very cold ambient temperatures, the battery is not being warmed like when the car is plugged into an electrical outlet. It means that by the time you arrive at the next charging station with the battery nearly discharged below 20%, it is quite possible for it to be colder than its normal operating temperature range.

But some automobiles, including some Tesla's, incorporate a battery pre-conditioning circuit that allows for the battery to be warmed to a certain point, before one arrives to the charging station. A cold battery that is nearly discharged (below 20% of charge state) takes a long time to charge from a discharged state to 80%. According to the video's host, the iD4 lacks such a feature, and this is the reason why he demonstrates what to do if one wants to speed-up the charging time at the station. The host even tells that he has no idea if "yo-yo driving" could reduce the live span of the battery or not. By "yo-yo driving" one of the two iD4s he managed to charge it in a few minutes calmares to the other iD4 (this one took over one hour to charge).

 

[cyb3rdud3]

According to the video, the iD4 does not have a battery heater that allows for heating the battery before arriving to a charge station. So if its battery is nearly discharged when you arrive at the charging station, the battery is very cold and will take a long time for it to charge. There is another video where the host demonstrated what is called, "yo-yo" driving the iD4 in order to charge it at a faster rate (two iD4's are driven, one normally, and the other drive "yo-yo").

I believe that some of the Tesla automobiles have a feature that, if activated, pre-warms the battery before you arrive at the charge station. Just watch the entire video I posted above; all is explained by the video's host.

You are absolutely correct in your understanding. It’s why I wouldn’t at the moment have any generation Volkswagen or Audi (unless the Audi is using the Porsche technology).

Tesla, Polestar, Volvo, Lotus, and even Kia do this way better and smarter. No need for YoYo, love that word by Kyle. Works fully automatic without thinking about it.

And it’s benificial not just in ultra cold climates when public charging but even when at home preconditioning so you get not only better performance but also much better efficiency when setting off.

And it doesn’t even require extreme cold conditions. The systems work all year round and materially impact the charging curve in a positive way.

Don’t know an out the implementations by Ford, BMW or Mercedes to be honest.

Ps. I think Kyle has another video regarding the KIA EV9 which I find oddly interesting as I’ve never considered a KIA before. And that one you can manually engage the battery conditioning which is pretty awesome especially so for climates that you are in. He is planning a special on efficiency and charging curve as well.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

You are absolutely correct in your understanding. It’s why I wouldn’t at the moment have any generation Volkswagen or Audi (unless the Audi is using the Porsche technology).

Tesla, Polestar, Volvo, Lotus, and even Kia do this way better and smarter. No need for YoYo, love that word by Kyle. Works fully automatic without thinking about it.

And it’s benificial not just in ultra cold climates when public charging but even when at home preconditioning so you get not only better performance but also much better efficiency when setting off.

And it doesn’t even require extreme cold conditions. The systems work all year round and materially impact the charging curve in a positive way.

Don’t know an out the implementations by Ford, BMW or Mercedes to be honest.

Ps. I think Kyle has another video regarding the KIA EV9 which I find oddly interesting as I’ve never considered a KIA before. And that one you can manually engage the battery conditioning which is pretty awesome especially so for climates that you are in. He is planning a special on efficiency and charging curve as well.

I watched several of Kyle's videos, not because I like EV's or not, but because I like to become informed (I enjoy the technical aspects of batteries used for propulsion). After watching his videos I realized that a lot of other EV drivers posting videos about the long period of time it takes to charge their EV batteries, I came to the realization that several of them had no idea that a battery that is cold, plus nearly discharged (below 20%), would take quite a long time to charge up to 80%.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

The accident was a side impact... The Toyota hit the CT in the side, not the bumpers. Side impacts are rated for the passengers within the vehicle that is impacted, not the other way around. The crumple zone of the impacting vehicle is responsible for that vehicle's passenger safety. Are we going to invent new tests to call out the CT design? The story indicated that the CT driver had minor injuries and passengers had no injuries, so the CT did it's job.

The CT has bumpers front and rear below the SS... My Ram had chrome bumpers, (see the picture I posted), there is no pedestrian crumple zone, yet... I haven't heard of it being the end of the world. The 4th Gen Rams had that since 2009, and the 3rd Gen Ram I had before that also had steel bumpers. Almost every American Pickup comes with steel bumpers (there are the sport versions with plastic body color matching as well), it is an option to get a version without.

The pedestrian issue is 100% being brought up because it is an EV. It is a non-story... There are millions and millions of more 1500/f150 on this planet than CTs... But yet, the story has not made its way to US news like the CT has...

Thanks for clarifying!

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I watched several of Kyle's videos, not because I like EV's or not, but because I like to become informed (I enjoy the technical aspects of batteries used for propulsion). After watching his videos I realized that a lot of other EV drivers posting videos about the long period of time it takes to charge their EV batteries, I came to the realization that several of them had no idea that a battery that is cold, plus nearly discharged (below 20%), would take quite a long time to charge up to 80%.

Yes, he is engaging despite at times going into super nerd mode And definitely, each battery management system has it's own interesting parts. For example in many when you drop really low it will take a lot long, just like you want fully charged. But say take the Kia with the eGMP platform and on the version in the EV9 if you don't drop below 8% state of charge, you get a super flat curve of around 210 all the way to around 80%. So when road tripping, remember that range and you'll get super fast charging each and every time. And way better than if you were to go 100-0-100.

Generally, people charging above 80% on fast chargers aren't smart. It is extremely rare that chargers are that spread out that you need it. And the time it takes is way slower than scheduling in an extra optimised stop.