The final blow for real gaming on the Mac, or the beginning of a new era?

[iindigo]

Once you’ve had it, there’s no going back. And on a PC it means spending about $150 more on your screen and using a $300+ video card.

Definitely subjective. I enjoy high framerates, but I wouldn't ever trade things like DPI, color, contrast, etc away for it. Actually my biggest beef with external displays right now is that everybody and their brother is pumping out 120/144/240hz displays that are 4k if you're lucky (many stop at 2560x1440) and treat all other specs as afterthoughts or worse.

 

[leman]

A good article from a reliable source that seems to indicate the 12z bionic gpu is indeed far from compelling in an absolute sense. Even a 2x or 5x or even 10x whatever isn’t going to be enough.

The 2018 Apple iPad Pro (11-Inch) Review: Doubling Down On Performance

www.anandtech.com

Maybe we were reading different articles? The Anandtech review shows the iPad outperforming a low-end dedicated Nvidia GPU (MX150) and getting 70% performance of an Nvidia 1060... why do you interpret these results as disappointing?

Please also don't forget that we are talking about a tablet with a SoC running at 10W or below... so we have a 10W combined CPU+GPU outperforming a 25W dedicated Pascal GPU!

 

[burgerrecords]

Maybe we were reading different articles? The Anandtech review shows the iPad outperforming a low-end dedicated Nvidia GPU (MX150) and getting 70% performance of an Nvidia 1060... why do you interpret these results as disappointing?

Please also don't forget that we are talking about a tablet with a SoC running at 10W or below... so we have a 10W combined CPU+GPU outperforming a 25W dedicated Pascal GPU!

Not disappointing in technical terms, just an order of magnitude deficient for AAA games. And AAA games are not run on systems that are tdp bound.

This is what leads me to believe there’s a large gap:
“So is the iPad Pro an Xbox One S class of GPU? Likely it is. The Xbox One S is only slightly quicker than the original Xbox One launched in 2013, and that console would struggle to achieve 1080p in games of that vintage.”

I’m not certain by what metric you get to 70% of 1060? In terms of teraflops isn’t it more like 40%? Even then isn’t that a 2016 mid range card with no tensor cores

 

[burgerrecords]

Definitely subjective. I enjoy high framerates, but I wouldn't ever trade things like DPI, color, contrast, etc away for it. Actually my biggest beef with external displays right now is that everybody and their brother is pumping out 120/144/240hz displays that are 4k if you're lucky (many stop at 2560x1440) and treat all other specs as afterthoughts or worse.

For P.C. AAA gaming, 144 1440p has emerged as the most desired balance in general, for now, from everything I see. desktop pc benchmarks are run at 1080 and 1440 across various quantity settings.

There is a nice, bright clear natural looking ips 144 1440p display panel with perfectly-fine-for-non-pro-use-color (color accuracy is irrelevant in a video game anyway) and the fact that there are not so nice ones doesn’t take that away.

Since virtually no TVs are actually really 120hz, consoles limit to 60hz and on a big screen 5 feet away I agree that 4K is a better use of the processing power (currently they use some scaling tricks for 4K I believe)

but 5k gaming at 60hz on a 27” screen just doesn’t seem to makes sense.

Apple screen philosophy and implementation are better for non gaming though in every way. (Same thing, once you go retina for genera computing it’s hard to go back)

 

[iindigo]

For P.C. AAA gaming, 144 1440p has emerged as the most desired balance in general, for now, from everything I see. desktop pc benchmarks are run at 1080 and 1440 across various quantity settings.

…

but 5k gaming at 60hz on a 27” screen just doesn’t seem to makes sense.

Apple screen philosophy and implementation are better for non gaming though in every way. (Same thing, once you go retina for genera computing it’s hard to go back)

That's the thing, though… when it comes to computers typically I play on the same systems I work on, and color accurate 5k 27" is actually really great for writing code, making sure UI designs match design specs, and testing iOS apps on simulators without scaling. 144hz 1440p would be a serious downgrade in my situation, since the display's primary purpose isn't for gaming. Yeah I could have a second display dedicated to gaming on my desk, but that's less than ideal with gaming being a secondary thing.

This is where the appeal of an iMac that's component at gaming lies, I think: it wouldn't be an uber-leet gamer rig that pumps tons of frames per second, but it would run many titles respectably without huffing and puffing too hard.

If Apple has some kind of ridiculous ace-in-the-hole ProMotion gaming iMac in development I wouldn't say no to it, though.

 

[Jimmy James]

If it’s iOS ports I expect more games. Freemium games. Which is a shame. I’d rather pay $50 once than $100 for each car in a sim. But maybe we’ll get arcade for Mac. That could be great.

 

[burgerrecords]

That's the thing, though… when it comes to computers typically I play on the same systems I work on, and color accurate 5k 27" is actually really great for writing code, making sure UI designs match design specs, and testing iOS apps on simulators without scaling. 144hz 1440p would be a serious downgrade in my situation, since the display's primary purpose isn't for gaming. Yeah I could have a second display dedicated to gaming on my desk, but that's less than ideal with gaming being a secondary thing.

This is where the appeal of an iMac that's component at gaming lies, I think: it wouldn't be an uber-leet gamer rig that pumps tons of frames per second, but it would run many titles respectably without huffing and puffing too hard.

If Apple has some kind of ridiculous ace-in-the-hole ProMotion gaming iMac in development I wouldn't say no to it, though.

I’m just citing the lack of an ideal gaming display as among the many reasons I don’t expect Mac to lead or even really be a factor for AAA gaming.

having not demonstrated a competitive desktop class GPU not a roadmap to that is the other reason

I don’t play games other than I’ve just discovered fortnite. The importance of P.C. games is way overrated.

 

[leman]

I’m not certain by what metric you get to 70% of 1060? In terms of teraflops isn’t it more like 40%? Even then isn’t that a 2016 mid range card with no tensor cores

Teraflops don’t matter that much since the Apple GPU is smarter with using them (especially in games). The 70% is according to the graphics benchmarks.

And sure, the 1060 in that surface is an older down-clocked card. But still, we need to look at these things in perspective. We have a tablet SoC coming very close to the performance if a mid-range Nvidia GPU. You say “even 10x improvement is not enough”. Based off these numbers, 10x improvement would be twice as fast as the fastest desktop GPU being sold today - the RTX 2080 Ti super scores 521458 in Ice Storm Unlimited. And while that is not the best benchmark around as it is not adequate for testing modern GPUs it again gives us a certain sense of perspective.

Put this GOU onto a 30W desktop platform, increase a number of shaders and you will get graphical performance better than 80% of all PCs out there. Computers with fast gaming graphics are just a small minority. I doubt that Apple will be able to touch high_end PCs with their GPUs - but they will raise the bar across the line, which is IMO far more important. If I know that the platform offers a certain minimal performance, my job as game developer is much easier. That’s one reason why consoles are so popular.

 

[burgerrecords]

as the fastest desktop GPU being sold today - the RTX 2080 Ti super scores 521458 in Ice Storm Unlimited.

Today is two months away from the release of NVIDIA’s 3060 equivalent desktop card, which by many accounts is expected to provide right near that level of performance, hence the 10x.

consoles when first released are amazing and practical performance for the ps5 and Xbox series x is also expected to be offer equivalent performance (Net overhead of a P.C.) of 2080ti as well.

I agree it’s a minority of pcs that can compete with new consoles, which is all the more reason to suppose that this kind of gaming is likely not going to end up on arm Mac in any comparable fashion.

Even on pc it’s overkill because how many people play those types of games as a percentage of user base there either? It can’t be more than 5-of PCs if you include work environments. So extrapolate to Mac the demand must be very small.

 

[leman]

Today is two months away from the release of NVIDIA’s 3060 equivalent desktop card, which by many accounts is expected to provide right near that level of performance, hence the 10x.

Are you referring to the Ampere marketing material published by Nvidia? They claim 10x in some ML workloads by using a custom non standard compliant floating point formats with reduced precision. It’s a neat trick that can be useful, but it tells us nothing useful about the actual performance if those cards.

I suppose we will have to wait and see.

 

[PortoMavericks]

I think leman is going too far comparing Apple GPU to Nvidia and Radeon, but I was thinking that this strategy can work.

The games will still be simplified versions of AAA games, pretty Much like when the Nintendo Switch gets a port. However, this can be a good thing for devs because the performance on the entry level will easily beat Intel's. I'm not familiar with the numbers but the majority of activated Macs have the Intel GPU only that's for sure.

 

[Boil]

WCCTech on Apple Silicon Gaming Console

Now imagine this is announced for release with digital voucher for GTA VI (three month exclusive) for US$299.00?

Much like most consoles, a loss leader to introduce a whole lot of folks to Apple Silicon...
[automerge]1594649895[/automerge]

 

[jeanlain]

I'm not going to reiterate what I have said elsewhere in details (and which some here may have already said), but I believe there can be a bright future for Mac gaming, mainly thanks to the unified GPU+CPU architecture on all Apple platforms and the steady rise of gaming on mobile.
It however depends on Apple. I don't expect them to become a new Sony or MS, but an acceptable third target for certain AAA game developers, which will already be much better than the current situation.

For this, Apple needs to
- Release their own game controller.
- Somehow allow for more storage on the Apple TV/iPad (and possibly iPhone).
- Possibly release an Apple TV variant geared towards gaming (see above).
- Create a special section for "premium games" on the App Store, so that mobile users accept that games can cost more than $10.
- (optional) Create a higher tier for Apple arcade subscriptions.
- Partner with game studios and/or porting houses to have major titles ported to their platforms.

 

[diamond.g]

WCCTech on Apple Silicon Gaming Console

Now imagine this is announced for release with digital voucher for GTA VI (three month exclusive) for US$299.00?

Much like most consoles, a loss leader to introduce a whole lot of folks to Apple Silicon...
[automerge]1594649895[/automerge]

While that would be cool, I don't think GTA fits in with Apples image.

 

[jeanlain]

Yeah, if there is a game studio that I WOULD NOT expect to partner with Apple , it's Rockstar.

 

[diamond.g]

I'm not going to reiterate what I have said elsewhere in details (and which some here may have already said), but I believe there can be a bright future for Mac gaming, mainly thanks to the unified GPU+CPU architecture on all Apple platforms and the steady rise of gaming on mobile.
It however depends on Apple. I don't expect them to become a new Sony or MS, but an acceptable third target for certain AAA game developers, which will already be much better than the current situation.

For this, Apple needs to
- Release their own game controller.
- Somehow allow for more storage on the Apple TV/iPad (and possibly iPhone).
- Possibly release an Apple TV variant geared towards gaming (see above).
- Create a special section for "premium games" on the App Store, so that mobile users accept that games can cost more than $10.
- (optional) Create a higher tier for Apple arcade subscriptions.
- Partner with game studios and/or porting houses to have major titles ported to their platforms.

My concern is that mobile games that make money are all F2P with microtransactions. Not sure how traditional games makers (say like CDPR Cyberpunk 2077) are going to get folks to buy a full priced game on Apples platform in light of this.

 

[Boil]

My concern is that mobile games that make money are all F2P with microtransactions. Not sure how traditional games makers (say like CDPR Cyberpunk 2077) are going to get folks to buy a full priced game on Apples platform in light of this.

Simply a matter of picking ten top F2P / microtransaction driven games & comparing the overall cost for an average user to the 'one & done' cost of a AAA title?

 

[Joe Dohn]

I'm not going to reiterate what I have said elsewhere in details (and which some here may have already said), but I believe there can be a bright future for Mac gaming, mainly thanks to the unified GPU+CPU architecture on all Apple platforms and the steady rise of gaming on mobile.
It however depends on Apple. I don't expect them to become a new Sony or MS, but an acceptable third target for certain AAA game developers, which will already be much better than the current situation.

For this, Apple needs to
- Release their own game controller.
- Somehow allow for more storage on the Apple TV/iPad (and possibly iPhone).
- Possibly release an Apple TV variant geared towards gaming (see above).
- Create a special section for "premium games" on the App Store, so that mobile users accept that games can cost more than $10.
- (optional) Create a higher tier for Apple arcade subscriptions.
- Partner with game studios and/or porting houses to have major titles ported to their platforms.

- Allow for fast backwards emulation
- More entry-level devices (i.e, cheaper)
- Make sure that your game release won't require constant maintenance, or else be obsoleted with the next OS release

As for the last entry, sure: there's no guarantee with consoles that the next release will be backwards compatible. But consoles are a stable platform to begin with (you know exactly what you are coding to, as consoles are somewhat "frozen" in time), and all three main console makers (Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo) usually offer backwards compatibility with at least the previous generation, which greatly increases the available game library. And that's not even considering software emulation, either officially (Microsoft, Nintendo online store) or through jailbreak.

 

[diamond.g]

Simply a matter of picking ten top F2P / microtransaction driven games & comparing the overall cost for an average user to the 'one & done' cost of a AAA title?

Chances are the costs will he heavily tilted towards the F2P mechanic on mobile side. People don't expect that style of gameplay or interaction when playing "full blown" console/pc titles. It is like looking at Witcher 3 on the Switch and then wondering why it isn't available for iOS/MacOS. A $60 iOS game isn't going to cut it (I presume folks are willing to pay that on the MacOS store), and then the expectation would be what would they have to add/change in the game to make up the revenue of porting the game to iOS and lowering the price.

 

[Waragainstsleep]

A $60 iOS game isn't going to cut it (I presume folks are willing to pay that on the MacOS store), and then the expectation would be what would they have to add/change in the game to make up the revenue of porting the game to iOS and lowering the price.

I think you'll see games structured to reflect this opportunity. $60 will get you the full blown Mac Version with all bells and whistles, the iPadOS version, the AppleTV version and the iPhone version. If you don't have all of those, maybe you can pay $20 for the latter three. Or just $10 for the iPhone and it comes with vouchers to buy skins or other content because all versions will have that option too.

Other games will work slightly differently so that the versions for different devices offered different ways to interact with the same online world. Maybe you could be a crew member aboard a starship and if you log in on Mac you can launch in a fighter and play something along the lines of X-Wing Vs TIE Fighter, but if you log in on iPhone you can only man the gun on one side of the mothership? Possibly not the most imaginative example but you get the idea.

 

[star-affinity]

While that would be cool, I don't think GTA fits in with Apples image.

Yeah, if there is a game studio that I WOULD NOT expect to partner with Apple , it's Rockstar.

I think I understand where you get this feeling from, but at the same time GTA: San Andreas is on the App Store and it's even a "Editors' Choice" game. 🤷‍♂️

‎Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas

‎***PLEASE NOTE: This game is officially supported on the following devices only: iPhone 4s, 5, 5s, 5c, 6, 6s, 6 Plus, SE, 7, 7 Plus, iPod Touch 6th Gen, iPad Mini 1, 2, 3 & 4, iPad 2, 3rd Gen, 4th Gen, iPad Air 1 & 2, and iPad Pro.*** Five years ago, Carl Johnson escaped from the pressures of...

apps.apple.com

 

[Joe Dohn]

I think I understand where you get this feeling from, but at the same time GTA: San Andreas is on the App Store and it's even a "Editors' Choice" game. 🤷‍♂️

‎Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas

‎***PLEASE NOTE: This game is officially supported on the following devices only: iPhone 4s, 5, 5s, 5c, 6, 6s, 6 Plus, SE, 7, 7 Plus, iPod Touch 6th Gen, iPad Mini 1, 2, 3 & 4, iPad 2, 3rd Gen, 4th Gen, iPad Air 1 & 2, and iPad Pro.*** Five years ago, Carl Johnson escaped from the pressures of...

apps.apple.com

Does everyone see what I mean here concerning backward compatibility?

This game only works from iPhone 4 to 7 Plus.

Do you have an iPhone 8 or better?

TOO BAD, SUCKER! Get an iPhone 4 to 7 Plus or no dice.
If things stay as they are now, I expect the Apple game library to be a patchwork in the future, with you needing specific phone versions if you want to try your favorite game.

 

[jerwin]

Are you referring to the Ampere marketing material published by Nvidia? They claim 10x in some ML workloads by using a custom non standard compliant floating point formats with reduced precision. It’s a neat trick that can be useful, but it tells us nothing useful about the actual performance if those cards.

I suppose we will have to wait and see.

The claim that an A12(x,z) is equivalent to a XBox S gpu is based on the same kind of games.

In rough terms, the Xbox One S is roughly 1.4 TFLOPS at its peak. But for better or worse, when the PC moved to unified shaders, the industry moved to FP32 for all GPU functions. This is as oppposed to the mobile world, where power is an absolute factor for everything, Vertex shaders are typically 32bpc while Pixel and Compute shaders can often be 16bpc. We’ve seen some movement on the PC side to use half-precision GPUs for compute, but for gaming, that’s not currently the case.

Overall, that makes like-for-like PC comparisons difficult. An AMD Ryzen 2700U SoC has a Vega GPU which offers 1.66 TFLOPS of FP32 performance, in theory. If run at 16-bit, that number would double, in theory. The iPad Pro would likely use half-precision for some of the GPU workload. This has been an issue for years and has made it difficult easily compare any cross-platform benchmark against the PC.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13661/the-2018-apple-ipad-pro-11-inch-review/6

 

[jeanlain]

I think I understand where you get this feeling from, but at the same time GTA: San Andreas is on the App Store and it's even a "Editors' Choice" game.

These "editors' choice things" are probably the result of an algorithm that picks games based on sale numbers.

 

[Janichsan]

These "editors' choice things" are probably the result of an algorithm that picks games based on sale numbers.

These things are actually curated by human editors.