The final blow for real gaming on the Mac, or the beginning of a new era?

[leman]

I'm not a gamer, but I thought the hardware issue with AAA games on Macs wasn't that lower-end Macs lacked dGPU's. Rather, I thought the hardware issue (in addition to cost) was that the higher-end dGPU Macs didn't offer what AAA gamers wanted/needed: the option to have the fastest gaming GPUs (e.g., Nvidia 2080Ti and other Nvidia flagship gaming products), and the fastest overclocked Intel "extreme" processors. Even when Macs came with NVIDIA GPUs, they never offered this sort of hardware, because Apple has generally wanted to limit TDP to keep its products thinner and quieter.

If all AAA games required a 2080Ti, the gaming market would have been laughably small. Check out the Steam hardware survey, most gamers out there have a 1660 or lower class GPU. The high-end GPUs are more of a symbol. They are exceedingly rare in the real world. Speaking if CPUs: Macs always used fastest available consumer processors. So there is no problem here.

The real issue is that it has been really difficult to make games with predictable performance, especially if you are looking at more demanding titles. Mac OpenGL drivers are poor quality, badly optimized and unpredictable. And given historically low-end GPUs in popular Macs there was very little financial incentive to make high-end games for the platform. Metal did improve the situation, but the issue if poor quality drivers remains. GPU manufacturers simply don’t have the pressure to deliver good drivers for Apple - it doesn’t change their sale numbers.

So are you thinking that AS will now offer that kind of hardware performance? If it does, I think that would help make the Mac an exciting platform for AAA game developers.

AS will be faster, have better drivers and will be able to deliver predictable performance. I expect AS Macs to match lower-end to mid-range gaming laptops in this department. Whether this will be enough incentive fir game developers, we’ll have to wahr and see.

 

[theorist9]

If all AAA games required a 2080Ti, the gaming market would have been laughably small. Check out the Steam hardware survey, most gamers out there have a 1660 or lower class GPU. The high-end GPUs are more of a symbol. They are exceedingly rare in the real world. Speaking if CPUs: Macs always used fastest available consumer processors. So there is no problem here.

The real issue is that it has been really difficult to make games with predictable performance, especially if you are looking at more demanding titles. Mac OpenGL drivers are poor quality, badly optimized and unpredictable. And given historically low-end GPUs in popular Macs there was very little financial incentive to make high-end games for the platform. Metal did improve the situation, but the issue if poor quality drivers remains. GPU manufacturers simply don’t have the pressure to deliver good drivers for Apple - it doesn’t change their sale numbers.

AS will be faster, have better drivers and will be able to deliver predictable performance. I expect AS Macs to match lower-end to mid-range gaming laptops in this department. Whether this will be enough incentive fir game developers, we’ll have to wahr and see.

Thanks for your reply. So from this, I gather the old barriers to the Mac becoming a AAA gaming platform have included (but aren't limited to) the following:

1) Problems with OpenGL drivers. But OpenGL was deprecated by Apple at WWDC 2017 (https://www.macgamerhq.com/opinion/the-end-of-mac-gaming/). So hasn't Metal 2 fixed this problem?

2) Financial constraints for consumers: A quick search of AZ indicates a laptop or desktop PC with a 1660 GPU can be had for about $1000. By contrast, getting a Mac with a dGPU forces you into the higher end of the Mac range. I.e., if you're an average non-gamer, a lower-end Mac should meet most of your processing needs. But if you're an average AAA gamer, you currently need a higher-end Mac (but only a midrange PC).

So it's not just that Macs are more expensive generally (that applies for all buyers); it's that they're particularly expensive for AAA gamers.

The second may be solved by AS, depending on its performance.

Speaking if CPUs: Macs always used fastest available consumer processors. So there is no problem here.

Here I think you were responding to my statement that Macs never offered the "fastest overclocked Intel 'extreme' processors." While there may have been rare exceptions I'm unaware of, I'll stand by that statement. As far as I can recall, Macs never contained Intel's fastest class of consumer processors, namely their X-series overclockable "extreme edition" processors (for obvious reasons). What they've always offered were their fastest non-X-series processors.

Granted, as you've explained, this high-end hardware is not necessary for AAA gaming (unless, perhaps, you want to game at 4k).

 

[jerwin]

For what it’s worth

Steam hardware survey

10 percent own a 1060. Most use nvidia.

1080p seems to be a popular resolution. But stepping up to 1440p (A resolution that marches up well with a 5k iMac) requires a really good video card. And then there’s the macOS performance penalty.

 

[leman]

1) Problems with OpenGL drivers. But OpenGL was deprecated by Apple at WWDC 2017 (https://www.macgamerhq.com/opinion/the-end-of-mac-gaming/). So hasn't Metal 2 fixed this problem?

Metal has definitely improved things — a lot. Since Metal is a much "simpler" hardware interaction layer, it is easier to write a Metal driver than an OpenGL driver. Which is why you see dramatic performance and stability improvements for games that bothered to implement metal.

There are still a few issues. First, "modern" Metal is still very young. The original 2015 Metal was a simplistic API, enough to make basic games etc. but lacking advanced features. Apple has been adding capabilities ever since, and Metal currently rivals DX12 and Vulkan in many areas. I'd say that it is now adequate for developing high-fidelity, complex games — but this hasn't been a case for too long. The other issue is still driver quality. On other platforms, GPU manufacturers invest a lot of effort in building high-performance drivers and go as far as include hand-tuned driver optimizations for popular games and software. After all, better performance in popular stuff is what increases their revenue. On a Mac, GPU vendors can just deliver a driver that's "good enough" — they won't get more money if Macs run games better. So you have a fragmented hardware ecosystem with drivers that have been essentially made by contractors. I expect Apple Silicon GPU drivers to be much better on average.

2) Financial constraints for consumers: A quick search of AZ indicates a laptop or desktop PC with a 1660 GPU can be had for about $1000. By contrast, getting a Mac with a dGPU forces you into the higher end of the Mac range. I.e., if you're an average non-gamer, a lower-end Mac should meet most of your processing needs. But if you're an average AAA gamer, you currently need a higher-end Mac (but only a midrange PC).

So it's not just that Macs are more expensive generally (that applies for all buyers); it's that they're particularly expensive for AAA gamers.

I would actually put it as a question of frequency. In the end, only few Macs currently in use have GPUs good enough for demanding gaming. This makes it less of an attractive target for game developers.

Here I think you were responding to my statement that Macs never offered the "fastest overclocked Intel 'extreme' processors." While there may have been rare exceptions I'm unaware of, I'll stand by that statement. As far as I can recall, Macs never contained Intel's fastest class of consumer processors, namely their X-series overclockable "extreme edition" processors (for obvious reasons). What they've always offered were their fastest non-X-series processors.

You are 100% correct on this. I just want to make clear out that their X-series and co. are too not much more than a bragging points. Those extreme enthusiast CPUs are extremely rare in the wild. The overwhelming majority of Intel CPUs currently in use are lower-end i3 and i5. My point is that Apple CPU options were always above-average. While other computer vendors often have a wide range of options, with higher-end CPUs reserved for premium models, Apple only ever offered premium models. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple has been purchasing a lion's share of Intel's high-end mobile CPUs.
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For what it’s worth

Steam hardware survey

10 percent own a 1060. Most use nvidia.

You need to add the percentages. You'll actually see that lower-end GPUs are the overwhelming majority. The GPUs with performance equivalent of 2060 or higher are at most 20% of the market.

 

[Janichsan]

x86 came with a built in cop-out for game devs: "We don't need to port out game, you can just install Windows." Thats unlikely to be the case this time.

Their answer then just will become "Just buy a decent Windows PC (or console)".

If anything Apple Silicon increases the problems Mac gaming already has, which is not really performance, but first and foremost the disproportionate cost of developing, optimising, maintaining, and supporting a game on a platform with a relatively small market share and which is fundamentally different to all others.

 

[leman]

If anything Apple Silicon increases the problems Mac gaming already has, which is not really performance, but first and foremost the disproportionate cost of developing, optimising, maintaining, and supporting a game on a platform with a relatively small market share and which is fundamentally different to all others.

This is indeed the core of the problem, but there is also hope that Apple Silicon changes it. Macs are a small share of the market, but they are a fairly substantial share of the premium market. If all Macs have gaming performance comparable to a mid-range gaming PC (which Apple Silicon will most likely offer), then effective market share becomes substantial. To put this in perspective: Macs are currently just around 10% of the total PC market, game-capable PCs are probably somewhere around 20%. Assuming that only around 5-10% Macs have decent GPUs (which is probably way to optimistic), we have game-relevant PC market share outnumber the Mac market share by a factor of at least 20-40. But if all Macs gain capable graphics, the gap suddenly shrinks to just 2-3 times — potentially much more interesting.

 

[Waragainstsleep]

Their answer then just will become "Just buy a decent Windows PC (or console)".

"Just spend $100 on Windows" works better than "Just spend $1000 on a games rig".

 

[Joe Dohn]

Their answer then just will become "Just buy a decent Windows PC (or console)".

If anything Apple Silicon increases the problems Mac gaming already has, which is not really performance, but first and foremost the disproportionate cost of developing, optimising, maintaining, and supporting a game on a platform with a relatively small market share and which is fundamentally different to all others.

I don't see Macs overtaking x86 processors anytime soon without absorbing them somehow. Especially in gaming.

 

[Janichsan]

But if all Macs gain capable graphics, the gap suddenly shrinks to just 2-3 times — potentially much more interesting.

That's if Mac users all at once replace their Macs with ArMacs, and if the GPUs in even the lowest-powered of these new Macs are competitive to the average gaming capable Windows PC as well as current and next-gen consoles.

 

[jeanlain]

At some point, most Macs will use Apple silicon, hence decent GPUs with more predictable performance.
This should improve the gaming experience on Macs, but I don't think it'll bring more AAA games to macOS unless Apple releases cheaper devices than can run those games (like... game consoles). It's always a question of user base rather than technology.

 

[diamond.g]

At some point, most Macs will use Apple silicon, hence decent GPUs with more predictable performance.
This should improve the gaming experience on Macs, but I don't think it'll bring more AAA games to macOS unless Apple releases cheaper devices than can run those games (like... game consoles). It's always a question of user base rather than technology.

In the console world, historically, if a console doesn’t come with a peripheral then developers rarely develop games with it in mind. The AppleTV may be an awesome console, but if Apple doesn’t include a controller in the box, I wouldn’t expect developers to make games with one in mind.

 

[leman]

That's if Mac users all at once replace their Macs with ArMacs, and if the GPUs in even the lowest-powered of these new Macs are competitive to the average gaming capable Windows PC as well as current and next-gen consoles.

Well, we are obviously talking about how the situation is going to be in a couple of years, not tomorrow. Intel is apparently making good progress with their Xe GPUs, so maybe the gaming capability of the average PC will improve dramatically in the near future.

 

[JMacHack]

If anything Apple Silicon increases the problems Mac gaming already has, which is not really performance, but first and foremost the disproportionate cost of developing, optimising, maintaining, and supporting a game on a platform with a relatively small market share and which is fundamentally different to all others.

That's not an increase, that's the exact problem we have right now.

It's a chicken and egg problem, "Macs aren't good for gaming" so the developers don't target for it. Devs make it run "good enough," PC is still better. -> "Macs aren't good for gaming."

We're also forgetting the biggest elephant in the room, and that's the PC's ability to be customized. A substantial amount of gamers build their own PCs, and while Hackintoshing is a thing, it's minor. With Apple (as with most pre-builts), you get a handful of options and that's it. You get endless customization with DIY. And I don't see this changing with Apple Silicon, even if it does outperform the equivalent Intel chips by miles.

Personally I'm not worried about AAA games. I'm disgusted with the big-name guys anyway. I'm more worried about the smaller guys. I doubt Dwarf Fortress (one of the best games ever made, fite me) is gonna make the jump, since the "Mac" version is just the x86 binaries run though a shell script. I'd like to not lose fantastic new games like Dusk (GOTY 2018, also fite me) either since I doubt these smaller devs have the time or resources to convert them. Big studios can farm out ports to Aspyr and Feral Interactive.

 

[leman]

Personally I'm not worried about AAA games. I'm disgusted with the big-name guys anyway. I'm more worried about the smaller guys. I doubt Dwarf Fortress (one of the best games ever made, fite me) is gonna make the jump, since the "Mac" version is just the x86 binaries run though a shell script. I'd like to not lose fantastic new games like Dusk (GOTY 2018, also fite me) either since I doubt these smaller devs have the time or resources to convert them. Big studios can farm out ports to Aspyr and Feral Interactive.

Seems we have similar tastes. I am sure DF will be available on ARM Apple, and wirst case scenario one will run it via Rosetta. I will be happy if Amplitude and Paradox games are ported (which I’m sure they will be).

 

[theorist9]

Their answer then just will become "Just buy a decent Windows PC (or console)".

If anything Apple Silicon increases the problems Mac gaming already has, which is not really performance, but first and foremost the disproportionate cost of developing, optimising, maintaining, and supporting a game on a platform with a relatively small market share and which is fundamentally different to all others.

Yes, agreed, the MacOS market for games is small. But the iOS market for games is huge. And I thought part of Apple's MacOS/AS gaming strategy is to get devs who've already created games for iOS to rework them for MacOS. This would, of course, turn on how easily it is, once the Mac moves to AS, to do such reworking.

 

[JMacHack]

I am sure DF will be available on ARM Apple, and wirst case scenario one will run it via Rosetta.

I mean, I'd like that very much, and if it doesn't I do have my Mac Pro 5,1 to run it on. But if Apple Silicon is going to end up as powerful as Apple says I'd like to leverage that for DF. I have zero clue how Rosetta would handle it, since it's run like a shell script.

 

[leman]

I mean, I'd like that very much, and if it doesn't I do have my Mac Pro 5,1 to run it on. But if Apple Silicon is going to end up as powerful as Apple says I'd like to leverage that for DF. I have zero clue how Rosetta would handle it, since it's run like a shell script.

It would work just like anything else. Also, DF is coming up on Steam

 

[magbarn]

I've been a PC Gamer since the 1980's and one thing that is very common with new AAA releases since the advent of dGPU's like 3dfx is updated video card drivers to make the new AAA title run faster/smoother/more reliable from AMD/Nvidia tweaking their drivers. I don't think we'll see this happening in MacOS as it isn't a "user-friendly" feature.

 

[Janichsan]

Yes, agreed, the MacOS market for games is small. But the iOS market for games is huge. And I thought part of Apple's MacOS/AS gaming strategy is to get devs who've already created games for iOS to rework them for MacOS. This would, of course, turn on how easily it is, once the Mac moves to AS, to do such reworking.

But is that really what you'd want on the Mac? Mobile games?

 

[Boil]

I just want World of Warcraft & GTA VI...

 

[theorist9]

But is that really what you'd want on the Mac? Mobile games?

No. That's why I said "rework", not "port". I.e., you'd need to adapt the games to be appropriate for a desktop/laptop. There have been articles discussing this as a possible "gateway" for bringing more games to the Mac. If I have a chance I'll find and link them.

 

[Mereo]

The way I see it is this:

• If you want to play AAA games, not possible as developers will need to not only need to port games to MacOS which uses a Non-Industry Standard API (Metal instead of Vulkan), but they'll also have to deal with the new architecture. I do not think the industry will want to deal with that.
• If you want to play Indy Games, yes. A lot of engines Indy Game Developer use already offers cross-platform support.

I own both, a MacBook and a Gaming Desktop Computer (PC). My productive work is done on my MacBook while connected to external Monitors, keyboard and mouse. When I want to game, I simply with to my Desktop Computer (PC).

 

[Janichsan]

No. That's why I said "rework", not "port". I.e., you'd need to adapt the games to be appropriate for a desktop/laptop. There have been articles discussing this as a possible "gateway" for bringing more games to the Mac. If I have a chance I'll find and link them.

I don't know what you are expecting here. The overwhelming majority of iOS games are simplistic, casual games serving as vehicles for microtransactions - i.e. mobile games. That won't change when these games are playable on ArMacs. No one will "rework" Clash of Kings or whatever bullyotz into a complex strategy game. They will remain mobile games at their core.

 

[theorist9]

I don't know what you are expecting here. The overwhelming majority of iOS games are simplistic, casual games serving as vehicles for microtransactions - i.e. mobile games. That won't change when these games are playable on ArMacs. No one will "rework" Clash of Kings or whatever bullyotz into a complex strategy game. They will remain mobile games at their core.

I don't expect anything here. I'm not a gamer (neither mobile nor desktop), so I don't have a horse in this race. I'm simply interested in this from a general technology development POV, and was just reporting what I've seen in articles like this one from ArsTechnica: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...s-is-set-for-some-big-changes-here-are-a-few/ as well as this somewhat older article (2018) from Dice: https://insights.dice.com/2018/06/26/apple-metal-2-great-game-developers/ (yes, I know things have changed in the past two years)

 

[Janichsan]

...in articles like this one from ArsTechnica: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/gaming-on-apple-platforms-is-set-for-some-big-changes-here-are-a-few/...

...which effectively says precisely what I did: Macs will get mobile games.

...as well as this somewhat older article (2018) from Dice: https://insights.dice.com/2018/06/26/apple-metal-2-great-game-developers/

That this article's predictions haven't come true in the two years since its publication should tell you something.