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By your logic, the scientific community should waste time debating flat-earthes and they should be allowed on mainstream networks to share their lies. We always make a selection.

About your very clever and original “censorship is fascism” comeback… no. Censoring violent and dangerous opinion that undermine democracy and human life is a right and a duty of civil society. If your opinion is directly linked to violence or harm, it is violence, not an opinion. A gangster who asks somebody to kill becomes a killer. Someone who chants about killing an ethnicity is a violent person, not one with a legitimate opinion on the marketplace of ideas.
Also fascism’s censorship is state-driven, we’re talking about private entities here.

Exactly as I tried to point out. Apple can’t censor anyone. They aren’t a government agency. They only control Apple’s content distribution. If Apple chooses not to carry certain content that content has not been censored. No one has a right to be distributed by Apple and Apple is under no legal obligation to carry any specific content.
 
This is nonsensical. There is one truth. You’re discussing perspective and belief while awarding truth to everyone with perspective and belief. That is a very odd path.

If there is only one truth, whose business is it to "award" it?

The truth shouldn't need to be "awarded" and anyone who claims to be worthy of awarding it us full of crap.
 
If there is only one truth, whose business is it to "award" it?

The truth shouldn't need to be "awarded" and anyone who claims to be worthy of awarding it us full of crap.

TRUTH is a subjective concept. Eye witnesses are not lying when they make faulty reports. They saw what they saw and to them that’s the truth.

FACTS are objective. A fact can be verified. Facts are fixed quantities. The “truth” is entirely subjective.
 
Also fascism’s censorship is state-driven, we’re talking about private entities here.
Private companies have the right to moderate however they choose. But it sounded like some of what you were saying was refering to the state. The only restriction you should have on your rights are when you violate another person's right. It's the state's sole responsibility to respect and protect people's rights. Not to restrict people's rights.
 
Private companies have the right to moderate however they choose. But it sounded like some of what you were saying was refering to the state. The only restriction you should have on your rights are when you violate another person's right. It's the state's sole responsibility to respect and protect people's rights. Not to restrict people's rights.

Of course. Several of the people posting here are dealing out well worn and debunked rhetoric. Suggesting that private companies can censor people is just wrong. They can’t. If a private company refuses to carry your content you find a different company that will. Or start one of your own. You haven’t been censored. Censorship is a government function.

But that doesn’t fit the “my free speech is being violated if I can’t shout the most offensive things I can think of whenever I want!” rhetoric.
 
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These things shouldn’t be political.

There’s absolutely no debate in the scientific community that covid vaccines were safe.
Thankfully, people in the actual scientific community have figured out that some covid vaccines are actually more harmful than others, and have (in some countries) stopped administering Moderna to young people. Because „science“ is really not as black-and-white.
 
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Private companies have the right to moderate however they choose. But it sounded like some of what you were saying was refering to the state. The only restriction you should have on your rights are when you violate another person's right. It's the state's sole responsibility to respect and protect people's rights. Not to restrict people's rights.
Protecting someone’s rights automatically restrict other people’s rights. If you want private land property, you must restrict people’s freedom to step on it. This is at a lower level than 101 political science classes, it’s common sense.
Then you may argue that some americans’ ideals of reducing the government’s intervention to the minimum is the best form of government but you have the burden of proof there.
The state must protect me from violent and dangerous people like those who spread diseases, destroy the environment, want to eliminate some ethnicity and so on.
 
Thankfully, people in the actual scientific community have figured out that some covid vaccines are actually more harmful than others, and have (in some countries) stopped administering Moderna to young people. Because „science“ is really not as black-and-white.
Moderna has been linked, after the public release, which means in very high number (hence the danger is pretty rare) to have some more common dangerous effects than others in some category of people, yes.
Of course there’s been a debate in the scientific community about the safety of vaccines, that’s why they have trials and keep monitoring all unwanted effects. But this debate has never been about how safe they are compared to just letting covid flow, like people on that show, usually mediocre comedians and not researchers, want you to believe.
So, sorry if I wasn’t clear enough but my point remains the same: the debate about the safety of vaccines in the terms that some people on that show usually presented (like a very dangerous solution) absolutely doesn’t exist in the scientific community.
 
It’s clear where you stand on this. Claiming that companies have “suppressed” Rogan is a big tell. So is your disingenuous attempt to portray me as lazy. That’s false. Showing you case law isn’t necessary.
I’m not “claiming” anything. It was confirmed that Rogan and others like him were being shadow banned when the twitter files story broke (you may have missed it since cable news didn’t cover it which surprised literally no one). If that still isn’t enough for you then how about when Zuck flat out admitted that Facebook was contacted by the FBI to suppress anyone sharing the Biden laptop story. I could go on but you get the idea. Or rather, you don’t get the idea which is your whole problem here.


Showing you case law isn’t necessary.

Well if you want to have a leg to stand on then you better come up with some legal precedent that proves you right. Otherwise, yes, all you are doing is the tired old lazy internet squabbling that I expect more from comment threads on instagram or twitter but not the supposedly more esteemed MR forums.
 
I’m not “claiming” anything. It was confirmed that Rogan and others like him were being shadow banned when the twitter files story broke (you may have missed it since cable news didn’t cover it which surprised literally no one). If that still isn’t enough for you then how about when Zuck flat out admitted that Facebook was contacted by the FBI to suppress anyone sharing the Biden laptop story. I could go on but you get the idea. Or rather, you don’t get the idea which is your whole problem here.

That isn’t censorship. I “get the idea.” The issue I have is that you’re misusing the term.

Well if you want to have a leg to stand on then you better come up with some legal precedent that proves you right. Otherwise, yes, all you are doing is the tired old lazy internet squabbling that I expect more from comment threads on instagram or twitter but not the supposedly more esteemed MR forums.
Back to this dumb BS? The first amendment is clear. Claiming I’m lazy is just a dodge. I’m not lazy. I’m just disinterested in Rogan and I’m especially disinterested in the kind of person who would expend this much effort defending him.



 
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Well, the courts said otherwise when his nutty free speech caused others direct harm, which is what happened. There are and should be limits on free speech, per Alex Jones and Giuliani's 2020 election stupidity. Giuliani got sued and lost because he made up lies as well that caused others harm. That's not controlling free speech, that's making people responsible for their actions when they caused other people distress.

This is what I dislike about Rogan, he says whatever he wants but when there are real world consequences or it looks like he's about to get into trouble, he walks back his comments and defaults to saying he's not responsible since he's just some guy on the internet and shouldn't be believed.

He can't have it both ways. Either use your pulpit responsibly or shut your mouth if you can't take the heat.

Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity are famous for this kind of thing.

“Are children being kidnapped by gay servicemen and sold to rabid leftists to be used in the war against Christmas?? I don’t know, I’m just asking questions!”

It’s the sort of tactic that shouldn’t work on anyone older than about 12 and yet…
 
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Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity are famous for this kind of thing.

“Are children being kidnapped by gay servicemen and sold to rabid leftist to be used in the war against Christmas?? I don’t know, I’m just asking questions!”

It’s the sort of tactic that shouldn’t work on anyone older than about 12 and yet…
I wasn’t in a crowded theater yelling “FIRE!”, I was just in a crowded theater asking loudly the question “FIRE?” to see if there was a fire.
 
That isn’t censorship. I “get the idea.” The issue I have is that you’re misusing the term.

I am not American, so I haven't commented on this before, but since this thread is going in circles about the definition of a word...

From all the links that you've posted and all the dictionary results that I've clicked on, many mention that the First Amendment only applies to the government, but not a single one states that only the government can censor things. Even the ALA site, which gets the closest, then has pages on censorship attempts by "a local pressure group" (not the government). From Wikipedia:

"The First Amendment protects against censorship imposed by law, but does not protect against corporate censorship"

"Private businesses, schools, libraries, and government offices may use filtering software to censor at their discretion, and in such cases courts have ruled the use of such censoring software does not violate the First Amendment"

It seems that non-governmental censorship is a concept that everyone understands, it's just not unconstitutional. What am I missing?
 
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I am not American, so I haven't commented on this before, but since this thread is going in circles about the definition of a word...

From all the links that you've posted and all the dictionary results that I've clicked on, many mention that the First Amendment only applies to the government, but not a single one states that only the government can censor things. Even the ALA site, which gets the closest, then has pages on censorship attempts by "a local pressure group" (not the government). From Wikipedia:

"The First Amendment protects against censorship imposed by law, but does not protect against corporate censorship"

"Private businesses, schools, libraries, and government offices may use filtering software to censor at their discretion, and in such cases courts have ruled the use of such censoring software does not violate the First Amendment"

It seems that non-governmental censorship is a concept that everyone understands, it's just not unconstitutional. What am I missing?

You’re missing the fact that a government can actually cause a person to have NO platform whatsoever. A business can’t. If one business chooses not to platform you, go to a different business. If none will platform you, you can start your own. Just look at “truth social dot com.” Did its owner get censored? Nope.

Businesses can not censor people. They can choose what content to run and what not to. But they don’t have the power or the legal right to silence people across multiple businesses.
 
You’re missing the fact that a government can actually cause a person to have NO platform whatsoever. A business can’t. If one business chooses not to platform you, go to a different business. If none will platform you, you can start your own. Just look at “truth social dot com.” Did its owner get censored? Nope.

Businesses can not censor people. They can choose what content to run and what not to. But they don’t have the power or the legal right to silence people across multiple businesses.
I'd say passively businesses can censor people. Maybe they can't outright, but consider the TOS of what's allowable and what's not. Those are the rules you agree to when you use the platform. If you are going to spew hate speech and go after people with doxxing and such and it's against the rules, then yeah, the business can censor you or kick you off.

If companies are going to be potentially held liable when someone uses their platform to hurt someone or it generates enough bad press to hurt the stock price, why wouldn't a company do something to stop losses?

Consider Alex Jones, I don't think his deplatforming was a freedom of speech issue, it was that no company wanted to deal with the dumpster fire that followed him considering all his legal trouble.
 
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I'd say passively businesses can censor people. Maybe they can't outright, but consider the TOS of what's allowable and what's not. Those are the rules you agree to when you use the platform. If you are going to spew hate speech and go after people with doxxing and such and it's against the rules, then yeah, the business can censor you or kick you off.

If companies are going to be potentially held liable when someone uses their platform to hurt someone or it generates enough bad press to hurt the stock price, why wouldn't a company do something to stop losses?

Consider Alex Jones, I don't think his deplatforming was a freedom of speech issue, it was that no company wanted to deal with the dumpster fire that followed him considering all his legal trouble.

That isn’t censorship. No official agency is stopping anyone from choosing a different platform or starting their own.
 
That isn’t censorship. I “get the idea.” The issue I have is that you’re misusing the term.


Back to this dumb BS? The first amendment is clear. Claiming I’m lazy is just a dodge. I’m not lazy. I’m just disinterested in Rogan and I’m especially disinterested in the kind of person who would expend this much effort defending him.
Again, I’m not misusing the term because as I already stated I acknowledge there’s a difference between speech censored by the state and by private companies. Both are disturbing but only one is illegal. I seriously could not make it any more simple than that to clearly prove to you that I understand the law. If you still want to convince yourself otherwise then go right ahead but you look like a damn fool doing so.

Well then it appears we found something in common because I too am disinterested in anyone who would go to this length to attack a comic podcaster they could just ignore if they wanted to. I mean my god you’d think Joe himself personally slandered your family given your extreme grudge against him. At least I’m defending the ideal that everyone should have an equal voice on all media platforms because apparently I have more faith in people’s intelligence than you do when it comes to thinking for themselves. Even if I didn’t care for Rogan I would still defend him this vehemently, and even though I don’t care for you I would defend you all the same because I believe you should not be censored or restricted for sharing your opinions and views on a major online forum or media organization.
 
Again, I’m not misusing the term because as I already stated I acknowledge there’s a difference between speech censored by the state and by private companies. Both are disturbing but only one is illegal. I seriously could not make it any more simple than that to clearly prove to you that I understand the law. If you still want to convince yourself otherwise then go right ahead but you look like a damn fool doing so.

Well then it appears we found something in common because I too am disinterested in anyone who would go to this length to attack a comic podcaster they could just ignore if they wanted to. I mean my god you’d think Joe himself personally slandered your family given your extreme grudge against him. At least I’m defending the ideal that everyone should have an equal voice on all media platforms because apparently I have more faith in people’s intelligence than you do when it comes to thinking for themselves. Even if I didn’t care for Rogan I would still defend him this vehemently, and even though I don’t care for you I would defend you all the same because I believe you should not be censored or restricted for sharing your opinions and views on a major online forum or media organization.

It just isn’t possible for a private company to censor anyone. As I said: if one disinvites you, find another or start your own. There are ample examples of this. No company is censoring or denying anyone free speech.

And for the record, I haven’t attacked Rogan. I dislike who he has on his show but I haven’t attacked him personally.
 
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It just isn’t possible for a private company to censor anyone. As I said: if one disinvites you, find another or start your own. There are ample examples of this. No company is censoring or denying anyone free speech.

And for the record, I haven’t attacked Rogan. I dislike who he has on his show but I haven’t attacked him personally.
Right because that’s so easy to do in this era of extreme inter-corporatist operations that almost exclusively skews to one end of the sociopolitical spectrum. Please 🙄

Fine. Poor choice of phrasing on my part. Call it whatever else you want. You care too much about the guests that are on a podcast then.
 
Well just this week Joe Rogan had Bret Weinstein on as a guest [again] to promote that HIV not being the cause of AIDS. Perhaps some people see that as comedy? But many others have suffered because of AIDS & HIV would be offended. And if this opinion is taken seriously, it could result in additional infections and deaths. But this is only entertainment and comedy so it shouldn’t be equated to “yelling FIRE in a crowded theater”?

 
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Well just this week Joe Rogan had Bret Weinstein on as a guest [again] to promote that HIV not being the cause of AIDS. Perhaps some people see that as comedy? But many others have suffered because of AIDS & HIV would be offended. And if this opinion is taken seriously, it could result in additional infections and deaths. But this is only entertainment and comedy so it shouldn’t be equated to “yelling FIRE in a crowded theater”?


First line of that article

Bret Weinstein, the evolutionary biology professor turned podcaster and ivermectin guy,

🤡
 
Right because that’s so easy to do in this era of extreme inter-corporatist operations that almost exclusively skews to one end of the sociopolitical spectrum. Please 🙄

Your skepticism doesn’t rebut the point. There are lots of outlets. No company can censor anyone.

Fine. Poor choice of phrasing on my part. Call it whatever else you want. You care too much about the guests that are on a podcast then.
I “care too much”?

No, not really. It’s more that you dislike my position so you feel it necessary to discredit me. Whatever. I’m not a fan of Rogan for any number of reasons. I’m also not a fan of false claims about people being censored and or their freedom of speech being violated. Those are serious charges.
 
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