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Just to point out: The words "oversubscribed PCIe lanes" are being thrown around here and I'd like to point out that's complete and total BS. It's being just made up by the people using them and hold no meaning. No one can know if the lanes are "oversubscribed" unless they already know how many lanes there are in the first place - and they don't! Peroid, end of story. Apple themselves said or alluded to, the fact that there are 4 [dedicated] USB3 ports and I seriously doubt they would lie, mislead, or rip us off by delivering port-multiplied ports.

Their very history in both advertising and manufacturing should tell us this. Or can someone show me where they advertised 2, 3, or 4 ports of any kind (TB, SATA, FW, LAN, anything) and yet delivered the device with port multiplication? Have they ever used port multiplication of any kind in any of their devices at all? I suspect not, no.

So this entire line of thinking is just self promoting an unfounded opinion and in reality complete BS!

We know that it uses LGA 2011 and there are two series of processor in this category. Sandy Bridge-E and Ivy Bridge-E. There is also Haswell-E but we don't know if that will use the same socket yet. The point of bringing these up is that the PCIe controller is in the processor and we already know how many PCIe lanes each of these series of processor have available.

That answer is 40 x PCIe 3.0 lanes. Each lane has a maximum throughput of 985 MB. So if we take that and multiply it by 40 we get 39,400MB/s or in Mb terms 315,200Mb/s aka 307Gb/s

Now lets consider that both of the AMD FireGL cards are connected via PCIe Gen3 8x which they likely will be (That is the equivalent of x16 PCIe 2.0 for each card) that takes 16 PCIe Gen 3 lanes out of the system leaving 24 lanes. Looking at the PCIe SSD card used in the MacBook Air it would appear that it uses a single PCIe lane. If that is Gen 3 which it very well could be then that is 985MB/s of bandwidth. The Mac Pro is claiming slightly faster than that so it may use a 4x PCIe Gen 3 or a 4x Gen 2. Either way we are comfortably over the 1.25GB/s quoted by Apple.

So lets be conservative and say it uses 4x PCIe, that leaves 20 Lanes for Thunderbolt. That's 19,700MB/s aka 157.6Gb/s more than enough for the 120Gb/s demanded by the six Thunderbolt ports (6 x 20Gb/s = 120Gb/s) being used simultaneously. If we deduct that we are left with 37.6Gb/s of bandwidth for the USB 3.0 devices.

So lets go over those, it has 4 USB 3.0, if they follow the specification that is 5Gb/s per port. Simple math dictates we need 20Gb/s of bandwidth for those, we already had 37.6Gb/s left so now we deduct that and we are left with 17.6Gb/s of overhead bandwidth.

Now obviously that PCIe bandwidth left over won't really be left over, audio, system controllers, Dual Gigabit Ethernet, WiFi and Bluetooth will use some of it and some devices will use the slower PCIe 2.0 bus, probably the SATA drive, Bluetooth and WiFi module. But expect Bluetooth and WiFi to share the same PCIe Lanes with a bridge chip and the SSD to only use 4 PCIe lanes and in these modern systems you can run PCIe 1.1, 2.0 and 3.0 devices simultaneously and in fact devices that use the PCIe bus can dynamically clock down to PCIe 1.1 or 2.0 from PCIe 3.0. They do this to enter low power states but not only when the system is sleeping, just being idle can make the PCIe bus decrease in speed. I have an example of that on my own PCIe 3.0 system I can show you if you want with screenshots as I am running an LGA 2011 system with 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes and two PCIe 3.0 compliant graphics cards which clock down to PCIe 1.1 when the system is idle.

TL;DR So in closing. The system has more than enough bandwidth for every port it has to be fully saturated while simultaneously fully loading both graphics cards.

Well, that was nicely written - and thus I could understand it all! :D

Thanks for supporting the obvious assumptions with actual figures!

The variables of course make all this uncertain but I agree your outline explains the minimum probable configuration.

Very helpful!
Thanks!
 
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Oh dear. Are you actually barking?! There are good FW / USB interfaces for mobile and small rigs, but bigger studios and production facilities are almost entirely PCIe.
Because they rely mostly on ProTools, if I am not wrong.

As for DSP, I take it you're unaware of HDX or UAD, let alone Rednet or any of the other PCIe only formats.
Of course I am aware of UAD, I'm a customer since 2006 or so. UAD-1 before, UAD-2 now. But modern processors have so much power that additional DSP cards aren't really that important. Their main purpose is, they avoid the illegal copying problem.

Note that I am not complaining, I am extremely satisfied with UAD plugins and if that's their business model I am fine with it. The pricing of the plugins plus the card cost still make it worth the money.
 
!:cool:
 

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Because they rely mostly on ProTools, if I am not wrong.

I bet it's a tiny tiny minority! But it WAS the "pro studio" target standard for awhile. I guess it still is in the west (Yanks fear change... :D). But all you have to do is count the number of "pro studios" and compare that to the number of folks doing desktop audio to know the ratio. I guess PT owners are less than 2% and probably more like less than 0.2%. :p
 
I bet it's a tiny tiny minority! But it WAS the "pro studio" target standard for awhile. I guess it still is in the west (Yanks fear change... :D). But all you have to do is count the number of "pro studios" and compare that to the number of folks doing desktop audio to know the ratio. I guess PT owners are less than 2% and probably more like less than 0.2%. :p

Sorry, I forgot which audio software/hardware you prefer.
 
Sorry, I forgot which audio software/hardware you prefer.

I'm not sure if you meant that as a statement or a question but it doesn't matter what I personally like. I'm actually kind of an all-arounder bouncing between at least 8 different installations - this includes ProTools.

But if you're calling into question my statement just consider how many different DAWs and AI's there are out there and how busy the forums are for each and you can easily conclude users of "the other brand" outnumber PT users 100 to 1 - easy.
 
What if the trashcan went in a tower case?

Yes, it sounds like a tower for the sake of a tower but it would let you have one case with a single cooling and power system. Anything that would go externally would go in the case and be hooked to the trashcan (which is also in the case) via thunderbolt. No separate drive boxes, just bays as usual.

Not that thunderbolt is a magic pill. Memory is a good example. It would help with a bunch of cables all over your desk though and allow you to put the thing on the floor. It would be somewhat like a docking station in that you could pull out the pro if you needed to.

Of course then people will complain they can not see the tube. Fine, make a version out of clear acrylic too.
 
Putting the new Mac Pro in another case could cause issues with the cooling the Mac Pro.

What might be an interesting solution is an expansion case that "L" shaped. Then you would put the Mac Pro in a depression on the lower part of the "L" so that the top of the mini lines up with the top of the case.
 
Oh dear. Are you actually barking?! There are good FW / USB interfaces for mobile and small rigs, but bigger studios and production facilities are almost entirely PCIe.

As for DSP, I take it you're unaware of HDX or UAD, let alone Rednet or any of the other PCIe only formats.
UAD is PCIe or firewire.

As for what production facilities use, there are PCIe solutions by MOTU, SSL, RME and others, but there are plenty of solutions that still connect using firewire. Most of the higher level professional audio interfaces that have come out lately have an expansion slot to accommodate firewire OR Thunderbolt.
EG Apogee Symphony and UAD Apollo.
Of course Pro Tools HD needs a PCIe slot.
 
I'm not sure if you meant that as a statement or a question but it doesn't matter what I personally like. I'm actually kind of an all-arounder bouncing between at least 8 different installations - this includes ProTools.

A question. Since you seem to have unusually broad experience, as opposed to someone who has only used Logic or PT or whatever, what is it that you prefer?

you can easily conclude users of "the other brand" outnumber PT users 100 to 1 - easy.

Which brand is "the other brand"? Logic? Or are you referring to something beyond the prosumer level that I wouldn't know about (not my area)?
 
Still in denial?

Yes, it sounds like a tower for the sake of a tower but it would let you have one case with a single cooling and power system. Anything that would go externally would go in the case and be hooked to the trashcan (which is also in the case) via thunderbolt. No separate drive boxes, just bays as usual.

Not that thunderbolt is a magic pill. Memory is a good example. It would help with a bunch of cables all over your desk though and allow you to put the thing on the floor. It would be somewhat like a docking station in that you could pull out the pro if you needed to.

Of course then people will complain they can not see the tube. Fine, make a version out of clear acrylic too.

This is funnier than your concern over the power button. Maybe a remote to turn your power off every night.
 
Well, that was nicely written - and thus I could understand it all! :D

Thanks for supporting the obvious assumptions with actual figures!

The variables of course make all this uncertain but I agree your outline explains the minimum probable configuration.

Very helpful!
Thanks!

We know that it uses LGA 2011 and there are two series of processor in this category. Sandy Bridge-E and Ivy Bridge-E. There is also Haswell-E but we don't know if that will use the same socket yet. The point of bringing these up is that the PCIe controller is in the processor and we already know how many PCIe lanes each of these series of processor have available.

That answer is 40 x PCIe 3.0 lanes. Each lane has a maximum throughput of 985 MB. So if we take that and multiply it by 40 we get 39,400MB/s or in Mb terms 315,200Mb/s aka 307Gb/s

Now lets consider that both of the AMD FireGL cards are connected via PCIe Gen3 8x which they likely will be (That is the equivalent of x16 PCIe 2.0 for each card) that takes 16 PCIe Gen 3 lanes out of the system leaving 24 lanes. Looking at the PCIe SSD card used in the MacBook Air it would appear that it uses a single PCIe lane. If that is Gen 3 which it very well could be then that is 985MB/s of bandwidth. The Mac Pro is claiming slightly faster than that so it may use a 4x PCIe Gen 3 or a 4x Gen 2. Either way we are comfortably over the 1.25GB/s quoted by Apple.

So lets be conservative and say it uses 4x PCIe, that leaves 20 Lanes for Thunderbolt. That's 19,700MB/s aka 157.6Gb/s more than enough for the 120Gb/s demanded by the six Thunderbolt ports (6 x 20Gb/s = 120Gb/s) being used simultaneously. If we deduct that we are left with 37.6Gb/s of bandwidth for the USB 3.0 devices.

So lets go over those, it has 4 USB 3.0, if they follow the specification that is 5Gb/s per port. Simple math dictates we need 20Gb/s of bandwidth for those, we already had 37.6Gb/s left so now we deduct that and we are left with 17.6Gb/s of overhead bandwidth.

Now obviously that PCIe bandwidth left over won't really be left over, audio, system controllers, Dual Gigabit Ethernet, WiFi and Bluetooth will use some of it and some devices will use the slower PCIe 2.0 bus, probably the SATA drive, Bluetooth and WiFi module. But expect Bluetooth and WiFi to share the same PCIe Lanes with a bridge chip and the SSD to only use 4 PCIe lanes and in these modern systems you can run PCIe 1.1, 2.0 and 3.0 devices simultaneously and in fact devices that use the PCIe bus can dynamically clock down to PCIe 1.1 or 2.0 from PCIe 3.0. They do this to enter low power states but not only when the system is sleeping, just being idle can make the PCIe bus decrease in speed. I have an example of that on my own PCIe 3.0 system I can show you if you want with screenshots as I am running an LGA 2011 system with 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes and two PCIe 3.0 compliant graphics cards which clock down to PCIe 1.1 when the system is idle.

TL;DR So in closing. The system has more than enough bandwidth for every port it has to be fully saturated while simultaneously fully loading both graphics cards.

Thanks... I also appreciate the analysis, but there are a couple of things to consider...
- It's not clear whether Apple will budget 16 PCIe 3.0 lanes for each GPU (the normal convention) or 8 (which might be short sighted).
- Each TB controller (pair of ports) requires 4 lanes (although they will down clock to 2.0 speeds) - you can't budget bandwidth based on Gbps alone... you have to allocate lanes - 12 in total for the 3 controllers (but they don't need to be PCIe 3.0).
- It's not clear if the new Mac Pro will offer a 2nd PCIe SSD as an option (if so, it needs to be factored into the lane allocation)
- The PCH has 8 lanes of PCIe 2.0 which should be included in the budget

If you add up the worst case lane allocation you end up with this...
x32 for GPUs (@3.0)
x12 for TB (@2.0)
x2 for SSD1 (@ 3.0 speeds... x4 @ PCIe 2.0 speeds)
x2 for SSD2 (optional as above?)
x2 for USB3 (@ 3.0 speeds = 2 ports per lane)
Total = 50 Lanes

There are 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes on the CPU and 8 PCIe 2.0 lanes on the PCH.

It seems to me that either the 2nd SSD is for future use only and will not appear in this generation or something needs to be switched and share bandwidth, or they need to allocate only 8 lanes per GPU which would be fine today, but not very future proof.

Thoughts?
 
Thanks... I also appreciate the analysis, but there are a couple of things to consider...
- It's not clear whether Apple will budget 16 PCIe 3.0 lanes for each GPU (the normal convention) or 8 (which might be short sighted).
- Each TB controller (pair of ports) requires 4 lanes (although they will down clock to 2.0 speeds) - you can't budget bandwidth based on Gbps alone... you have to allocate lanes - 12 in total for the 3 controllers (but they don't need to be PCIe 3.0).
- It's not clear if the new Mac Pro will offer a 2nd PCIe SSD as an option (if so, it needs to be factored into the lane allocation)
- The PCH has 8 lanes of PCIe 2.0 which should be included in the budget

If you add up the worst case lane allocation you end up with this...
x32 for GPUs (@3.0)
x12 for TB (@2.0)
x2 for SSD1 (@ 3.0 speeds... x4 @ PCIe 2.0 speeds)
x2 for SSD2 (optional as above?)
x2 for USB3 (@ 3.0 speeds = 2 ports per lane)
Total = 50 Lanes

There are 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes on the CPU and 8 PCIe 2.0 lanes on the PCH.

It seems to me that either the 2nd SSD is for future use only and will not appear in this generation or something needs to be switched and share bandwidth, or they need to allocate only 8 lanes per GPU which would be fine today, but not very future proof.

Thoughts?

you're forgetting the NIC also.
 
Total = 50 Lanes

There are 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes on the CPU and 8 PCIe 2.0 lanes on the PCH.

It seems to me that either the 2nd SSD is for future use only and will not appear in this generation or something needs to be switched and share bandwidth, or they need to allocate only 8 lanes per GPU which would be fine today, but not very future proof.

Thoughts?

My thought, too. But, if these GPUs are a special Apple build, who says they have to be 8 or 16 lanes? They could be 10 or 12 lanes. (I have no idea if the GPUs could effectively use this config.)
 
Thanks... I also appreciate the analysis, but there are a couple of things to consider...
- It's not clear whether Apple will budget 16 PCIe 3.0 lanes for each GPU (the normal convention) or 8 (which might be short sighted).
- Each TB controller (pair of ports) requires 4 lanes (although they will down clock to 2.0 speeds) - you can't budget bandwidth based on Gbps alone... you have to allocate lanes - 12 in total for the 3 controllers (but they don't need to be PCIe 3.0).
- It's not clear if the new Mac Pro will offer a 2nd PCIe SSD as an option (if so, it needs to be factored into the lane allocation)
- The PCH has 8 lanes of PCIe 2.0 which should be included in the budget

If you add up the worst case lane allocation you end up with this...
x32 for GPUs (@3.0)
x12 for TB (@2.0)
x2 for SSD1 (@ 3.0 speeds... x4 @ PCIe 2.0 speeds)
x2 for SSD2 (optional as above?)
x2 for USB3 (@ 3.0 speeds = 2 ports per lane)
Total = 50 Lanes

There are 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes on the CPU and 8 PCIe 2.0 lanes on the PCH.

It seems to me that either the 2nd SSD is for future use only and will not appear in this generation or something needs to be switched and share bandwidth, or they need to allocate only 8 lanes per GPU which would be fine today, but not very future proof.

Thoughts?

They will definitely be using 8x for the dual graphics due to all the other devices there is. So that only takes 16 lanes for both cards, not 32. Leaving enough for everything else. Even my own GTX 780's which are faster than the FireGL cards in the new Mac Pro do not suffer any performance degradation at PCIe 2.0 x16 vs PCIe 3.0 x16. I mention this because PCIe 2.0 x16 uses the same amount of bandwidth as PCIe 3.0 8x

And there is only one SSD Stick, you can see by the images of the Mac Pro as presented that it physically doesn't have a 2nd connector for another SSD.

In my analysis I did budget lanes but I didn't always make it clear.
 
They will definitely be using 8x for the dual graphics due to all the other devices there is. So that only takes 16 lanes for both cards, not 32. Leaving enough for everything else. Even my own GTX 780's which are faster than the FireGL cards in the new Mac Pro do not suffer any performance degradation at PCIe 2.0 x16 vs PCIe 3.0 x16. I mention this because PCIe 2.0 x16 uses the same amount of bandwidth as PCIe 3.0 8x

And there is only one SSD Stick, you can see by the images of the Mac Pro as presented that it physically doesn't have a 2nd connector for another SSD.

In my analysis I did budget lanes but I didn't always make it clear.

I wouldn't use the word "definitely". They may, or they may not. And while everyone agrees that PCIe 3.0 is untapped by today's GPUs, there is some thought that the added bandwidth will be leveraged by compute applications...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5261/amd-radeon-hd-7970-review/10

Also, the lack of the second SSD connector could be a product of the fact the model we're looking at is pre-production, or it may be reserved for a future release. Either way, there are solder pads for a second connector. Whether we should budget PCIe lanes for it now or not is anyone's guess.
 
Loving all the technical stuff from people who know far more about that stuff than me - thanks all, for taking the time.

My 2p-worth: I'm a pro - and by that, I mean I do work that I get paid for. I earn my living doing graphics on my Mac Pro. I render, model and composite all the time. My 2008 hasn't had a day off since I got it.Put more ram in (note to self: change number in sig!), filled up the drive bays, got an external drive for Time Machine backups and a bunch of other stuff, and the thing performs like a champ every day. My Mac has to be fast, bomb-proof and available whenever I need it, and I will absolutely be getting the new one, just as soon as I can. I strongly suspect the thing has capabilities we don't know of yet, and I also suspect there'll be a small industry supply all the external things users will need to expand it. That's what happens with all Apple stuff - they make the thing, then others add to it in ever more creative and useful ways. There are going to be a lot of 'A-ha!' moments, for sure.

Am I worried about what to do with my old HD's? No. Worried about a rats nest of cables (which I already have - tucked behind desk - problem solved). No. Worried it might not be up to the job? Absolutely not. By the time it comes round to actually being able to have one, we'll know a lot more, solutions to problems - whether real or not - will have appeared, and once again the pros who use Mac Pros will have the machines they need to get the jobs done. The extra speed won't necessarily mean I'll get more done, but I will be able to try more things out, learn more, do more experiments and deliver better, more creative work to my clients. I'm sure there are those who'll feel ignored, left out, or marooned with expensive but now obsolete gear, but this is all normal. It might not be fair, but then it was hardly fair when all my SCSI gear was suddenly useless, or all the stuff for ADB, those ZIP disks, and all the rest of it.

I'm looking forward to a whole new Mac Pro chapter, whatever it may be.
 
I wouldn't use the word "definitely". They may, or they may not. And while everyone agrees that PCIe 3.0 is untapped by today's GPUs, there is some thought that the added bandwidth will be leveraged by compute applications...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5261/amd-radeon-hd-7970-review/10

Also, the lack of the second SSD connector could be a product of the fact the model we're looking at is pre-production, or it may be reserved for a future release. Either way, there are solder pads for a second connector. Whether we should budget PCIe lanes for it now or not is anyone's guess.

Based on the configuration that I have in my own computer and owning two LGA 2011 motherboards the situation is usually when you insert more than two PCIe devices it goes from two 16x to four 8x - Now obviously this is the PC industry, not Apple. But Apple is including six Thunderbolt connectors. That is a lot of lanes. I really do not think they will go dual 16x for the graphics when it would be much better system wise to use dual 8x and then use the rest for USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt.

I'm placing my bet on Dual 8x - and really the only alternative doesn't make sense because it only has 40 PCIe lanes and what you're suggesting would require 50.
 
I think they do consume PCI lanes

I did some more reading and I'm more confused than ever. :eek: Any intel block diagram shows Ethernet connected separate from the PCIe lanes like the one below, yet, if you read the data sheet for either the PCH or the 82579 it seems to imply that it uses a PCIe lane at half speed to transfer ethernet packets (not PCI encoded packets). Very strange. I'm curious if you can shed further light on this? :)

At any rate, I guess it's safe to budget at least one PCIe 2.0 lanes of the 8 on the PCH for Ethernet... maybe two (for dual NICs).

Carlow-Large.gif
 
I did some more reading and I'm more confused than ever. :eek: Any intel block diagram shows Ethernet connected separate from the PCIe lanes like the one below, yet, if you read the data sheet for either the PCH or the 82579 it seems to imply that it uses a PCIe lane at half speed to transfer ethernet packets (not PCI encoded packets). Very strange. I'm curious if you can shed further light on this? :)

At any rate, I guess it's safe to budget at least one PCIe 2.0 lanes of the 8 on the PCH for Ethernet... maybe two (for dual NICs).

Image

The never show anything connected directly to PCI Lanes that I've seen. Though I've always seen TB video coming from the CPU which is not the case here. soooo..
 
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