The Mac Pro Criticism

[Tanax]

Of course I meant internal storage, otherwise it would be an idiotic point. You can have an SSD and an HDD in the iMac. Not possible in the Mac Pro.

Completely absurd stuff.

And why would you want a loud and heat-generating slow HDD in your computer when you can just get a HDD-chassi with support for more than just 1 HDD and tuck that chassi away so that you get a quiet work-area?

All media should go external IMO and have internal SSD for the applications and OS.

Not saying the new Mac Pro's solution is the best but I for one welcome the storage solutions with it. GPU options though is another question..

 

[Luis Ortega]

The only hurdle that remains is the insane price of thunderbolt peripherals. Once that is overcome, most of the people here who are now saying "this Mac Pro sucks" will see what their fear of change prevent them from seeing.

It's not fear of change but fear of prices for it and all of the support purchases that are leading many to criticize the new mac pro's design approach.
It's all well and good for apple to be able to claim that its mac pro is now thinner and smaller, and promote lovely minimalistic views of its product, but the reality will be that of a small, shiny, black cylinder at the hub of a rat's nest of cables, power cords and odd peripherals.
It reminds me of the time I built a computer on my kitchen table and didn't bother to put anything in a case. It worked fine, and I didn't even need fans, but we have moved on since then.
It's also fear of limited upgradeability of components that has people worried.
When my current mac pro finally needs replacement in a few years, I will see the way things have developed and either get a new mac pro or build myself a mac/windows computer.
Had the new mac pros been of a more open, accessible and upgradeable design, I would have wanted to upgrade sooner, but I have little faith in apple's proprietary limitations and reliance on overpriced thunderbolt connectivity.

 

[luispedromota]

Two cilinders (or more) side by side...

The unified thermal core is brilliant. There's no question about it.

But restricting expansion to TB peripherals is not the way to go. What Apple needs to do is offer a second design with a second thermal core for expansion. The second thermal core would support PCIe, SSD and Ram expansion.

Two cylinders, side by side, producing a more rectangular form factor.

I think that's the solution... A second cylinder, visually identical to the new Mac Pro that interconnects via TB and gives all the expansion needed (to the ones who need it). And you could daisy chain other cylinders, for more expansion. You could even think about different types of "expansion cylinders": one for RAID storage, other for PCI expansion, other for graphic cards...

If Apple doesn't do it, they will be probably some third party that will do it. Just like it happened with the stackable Mac Mini expansions with the same form factor. It's a natural form of modular expansion.

But it would much nicer to have it done by Apple.

 

[Tesselator]

A question. Since you seem to have unusually broad experience, as opposed to someone who has only used Logic or PT or whatever, what is it that you prefer?

It just depends what I'm doing and how large or involved the project is. Also on whether or not it's all my own or a collaborative endeavor. This is missing 3 or 4 of the latest additions and upgrades (because I now click project icons more often than app icons when starting up) but as of about 18 to 24 months ago this was my goto panel:

Which brand is "the other brand"? Logic? Or are you referring to something beyond the prosumer level that I wouldn't know about (not my area)?

I meant all other brands combined. PT is popular but it's not even the most popular package/system. And when you compare the number of PT seats to the rest of the audio world combined it's such a tiny sliver it's pretty easy for hardware manufacturers to ignore all together without fear of damage. That said I don't see why PT full solutions or software only can't be used on the MP6,1 so I'm not even sure why it's important to establish these facts.

 

[deconstruct60]

I think that's the solution... A second cylinder, visually identical to the new Mac Pro that interconnects via TB and gives all the expansion needed (to the ones who need it).

Unless the second cylinder also has a very large thermal disappation problem though a single fan this is a just a form over function idea.

Why it is a cylinder has a point to addressing a problem to it. The fan is round, hence the round aspect to the shape. Have heat in a small space hence the chimney aspect.

You can debate with there should have been more stuff thrown inside the box but for what it does.... a box with a lid isn't necessarily better use of space. In fact a box is primarily to open up more space that isn't being used on the thermal problems so that can cram more stuff inside the shape.

If the second device is a container for alot of stuff that is relatively not all that hot then a rectangle probably is better. Slavishly matching the shapes doesn't do anything.

Now PCIe expansion container.... May see that. Although a bit awkward with cables coming out of the top along with the hot air, but that is minor. However, it is the likely some of the same problems of relatively hot cards needing to exhaust if big and hot ones. [ for mainstream x4 cards again rectangle works. ]

Just like it happened with the stackable Mac Mini expansions with the same form factor. It's a natural form of modular expansion.

If anything I'd expect someone to come out with a box can stack this Mac Pro on. So still box stack solution. Just a pedestal to put cylinder one. never going to exactly match Apple's fit/finish anyway for the kinds of margins/prices these expansion solutions will be held to.

 

[deconstruct60]

And why would you want a loud and heat-generating slow HDD in your computer when you can just get a HDD-chassi with support for more than just 1 HDD and tuck that chassi away so that you get a quiet work-area?

It isn't necessarily an HDD though. While it appears the second GPU has a placeholder for a PCI-e SSD socket, the Mac Pro might come with just one storage devices.

That isn't that far off from the Mini and iMac standard configurations. Those are just one drive too. What is a huge strange leap though is if there was only just one storage drive total. The Mini and iMac both have BTO options for two. If the Mac Pro is stuck at one and costs $1,000's more (comparing mid range models of each) that is just plain strange and baffling.

Total bulk capacity is just a short term issue that will unwind a bit more over the next 3-5 years of this designs lifetime. One drive though is just whacked. ( especially in the light of that gradual "good enough" flash capacity limitation unwinding over time. It is a current limitation capacity gap they can close faster with two drives. )

There are more than a few folks with Mac Pros now with one SSD for OS/Apps and a PCI-e based card for scratch/work.

Two SSDs in the new Mac Pro would match that. Otherwise have slide backwards for no good reason.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

I meant all other brands combined. PT is popular but it's not even the most popular package/system. And when you compare the number of PT seats to the rest of the audio world combined it's such a tiny sliver it's pretty easy for hardware manufacturers to ignore all together without fear of damage. That said I don't see why PT full solutions or software only can't be used on the MP6,1 so I'm not even sure why it's important to establish these facts.

I would have thought that either PT or Logic Pro was the most popular DAW software package. What is more popular than either of those?

 

[Ezlivin]

I can't wait to get a new Mac Pro

When I bought my first Mac in 1985 a lot of people criticized it.

"A tiny black and white screen?" they asked mockingly.

"Why is it using a non-standard 3.5" drive instead of the same 5" floppy everyone else uses?"

And you should have heard all the criticism of the user interface. No one thought a GUI was better than a CLI. I had plenty of people tell me that the GUI made the Mac a toy. The mouse was useless.

But then came the desktop publishing revolution which gave rise to giants like Adobe and Quark. Those mocking questions faded away.

For the past 28 years I've listened the complaints. For every person who likes the Mac there are about 10 that like to constantly criticize a computer they will never own. And they never grow tired of telling everyone of how the Mac is a failure, doesn't have this technology or has the wrong technology and so on.

I'm sure that the new Mac Pro will not make everyone happy. I'm sure that some professionals will switch platforms. And others will switch to the Mac. So it goes.

It's been an interesting 28 years. Apple only gave us a little preview of one product and look at all the drama that's been stirred up!

 

[OS6-OSX]

It just depends what I'm doing

Saw your icon button farm! The one that stood out was from Bias! Sad they went under earlier this year! Been using Peak forever! Long Live Peak!

 

[VirtualRain]

When I bought my first Mac in 1985 a lot of people criticized it.

"A tiny black and white screen?" they asked mockingly.

"Why is it using a non-standard 3.5" drive instead of the same 5" floppy everyone else uses?"

And you should have heard all the criticism of the user interface. No one thought a GUI was better than a CLI. I had plenty of people tell me that the GUI made the Mac a toy. The mouse was useless.

But then came the desktop publishing revolution which gave rise to giants like Adobe and Quark. Those mocking questions faded away.

For the past 28 years I've listened the complaints. For every person who likes the Mac there are about 10 that like to constantly criticize a computer they will never own. And they never grow tired of telling everyone of how the Mac is a failure, doesn't have this technology or has the wrong technology and so on.

I'm sure that the new Mac Pro will not make everyone happy. I'm sure that some professionals will switch platforms. And others will switch to the Mac. So it goes.

It's been an interesting 28 years. Apple only gave us a little preview of one product and look at all the drama that's been stirred up!

Great post! Couldn't agree more. The two Macs we had in our university lab were the most coveted machines until the NeXT Cube came along.

 

[Simplybetter]

When I bought my first Mac in 1985 a lot of people criticized it.

"A tiny black and white screen?" they asked mockingly.

"Why is it using a non-standard 3.5" drive instead of the same 5" floppy everyone else uses?"

And you should have heard all the criticism of the user interface. No one thought a GUI was better than a CLI. I had plenty of people tell me that the GUI made the Mac a toy. The mouse was useless.

But then came the desktop publishing revolution which gave rise to giants like Adobe and Quark. Those mocking questions faded away.

For the past 28 years I've listened the complaints. For every person who likes the Mac there are about 10 that like to constantly criticize a computer they will never own. And they never grow tired of telling everyone of how the Mac is a failure, doesn't have this technology or has the wrong technology and so on.

I'm sure that the new Mac Pro will not make everyone happy. I'm sure that some professionals will switch platforms. And others will switch to the Mac. So it goes.

It's been an interesting 28 years. Apple only gave us a little preview of one product and look at all the drama that's been stirred up!

Absolutely true. Most intelligent post on this thread.

 

[mcnallym]

It isn't necessarily an HDD though. While it appears the second GPU has a placeholder for a PCI-e SSD socket, the Mac Pro might come with just one storage devices.

That isn't that far off from the Mini and iMac standard configurations. Those are just one drive too. What is a huge strange leap though is if there was only just one storage drive total. The Mini and iMac both have BTO options for two. If the Mac Pro is stuck at one and costs $1,000's more (comparing mid range models of each) that is just plain strange and baffling.

Total bulk capacity is just a short term issue that will unwind a bit more over the next 3-5 years of this designs lifetime. One drive though is just whacked. ( especially in the light of that gradual "good enough" flash capacity limitation unwinding over time. It is a current limitation capacity gap they can close faster with two drives. )

There are more than a few folks with Mac Pros now with one SSD for OS/Apps and a PCI-e based card for scratch/work.

Two SSDs in the new Mac Pro would match that. Otherwise have slide backwards for no good reason.

At the risk of sounding nit picky, the iMac and the mac mini don't have BTO options for a Second Storage drive.

iMac either comes with

1 converntional HDD
or
1 SSD
or
1 Fusion Drive consisting of an SSD and a HDD which shows up in OSX as 1 Drive.

mac mini (non server)

1 converntional HDD
or
1 SSD
or
1 Fusion Drive consisting of an SSD and a HDD which shows up in OSX as 1 Drive.

Only the mini server comes with 2 HDD's, SSD etc.

Personally however I agree with you in the way that people have configured there existing Mac Pro's. Is what I intend with my refurb. An SSD for Boot, a second SSD for Work/Scratch both fitted on a Sonnetech Tempo Pro and then fill the Drive Bays with 4 1TB Samsung F3 in SW RAID for Storage. Optical Bay fitted with a Bluray and the Superdrive. Looking at putting a Matrox CompressHD into the Mac Pro to speed up H264 encoding from FCPX/Compressor.

Where I see Apple going with this is more for Studio's rather then individual users. With this then all that is in front of the actual users is the Mac Pro, and can easily swapout with a replacement.

Is how I use my mini and drobo pro. Elgato TV Archive, iTunes Library etc ALL sit on the Drobo. If the mini breaks I can simply swap in a new one, install OSX and point iTunes and Elgato etc at the Drobo Storage location.

I did look alternatively at waiting for the new Mac Pro in which case would had the Mac Pro along with a Netstor NA333TB. Fitted a Matrox Mojito Card instead of the CompressHD as the Mojito is confimed compatible and then fitted an Attotech R60F into the Chassis ( also confirmed compatible ) to work with the 16 HDD bays in the Chassis. Would then have worked in a similar way as with my mini and drobo. However even using a mini instead of the new mac pro was way more expensive.

 

[deconstruct60]

At the risk of sounding nit picky, the iMac and the mac mini don't have BTO options for a Second Storage drive.

If Apple wanted to slavishly follow the "present one logical drive" methodology then the two SSD would ship as RAID 0 as a "Ludicrous Speed Drive". A 2500MB/s drive would be holy cow fast.

I was talking about the drives themselves not the logical presentation.

Looking at putting a Matrox CompressHD into the Mac Pro to speed up H264 encoding from FCPX/Compressor.

I suspect Apple is going to work harder at unlocking the H264 encoders that come standard with most GPUs ( or leveraging the GPGPU for a higher quality encoding ) these days so that over time won't be as high demand for this kind of card. Although as a 1x PCI-e card would work just fine over Thunderbolt if have to.

Where I see Apple going with this is more for Studio's rather then individual users. With this then all that is in front of the actual users is the Mac Pro, and can easily swapout with a replacement.

It is not so much individual users but individual users with the total investment into just the Mac Pro. For individuals that have a mix of Mac laptops (for field work) and stationary Mac Pro for more heavy lifting this move will also work. But yes the solitary user ( either embedded inside of a company with their own siloed storage or one-instrument-one-man-band ) isn't the best fit.

I did look alternatively at waiting for the new Mac Pro in which case would had the Mac Pro along with a Netstor NA333TB. Fitted a Matrox Mojito Card instead of the CompressHD as the Mojito is confimed compatible and then fitted an Attotech R60F into the Chassis ( also confirmed compatible ) to work with the 16 HDD bays in the Chassis. Would then have worked in a similar way as with my mini and drobo. However even using a mini instead of the new mac pro was way more expensive.

Kind of in a different ballpark with a dual power supply capable rack mount storage enclosure for HBA card than just a older Mac Pro.

There are some gaps between old and new still to be filled in with devices.

 

[MacMilligan]

When I bought my first Mac in 1985 a lot of people criticized it.

"A tiny black and white screen?" they asked mockingly.

"Why is it using a non-standard 3.5" drive instead of the same 5" floppy everyone else uses?"

And you should have heard all the criticism of the user interface. No one thought a GUI was better than a CLI. I had plenty of people tell me that the GUI made the Mac a toy. The mouse was useless.

But then came the desktop publishing revolution which gave rise to giants like Adobe and Quark. Those mocking questions faded away.

For the past 28 years I've listened the complaints. For every person who likes the Mac there are about 10 that like to constantly criticize a computer they will never own. And they never grow tired of telling everyone of how the Mac is a failure, doesn't have this technology or has the wrong technology and so on.

I'm sure that the new Mac Pro will not make everyone happy. I'm sure that some professionals will switch platforms. And others will switch to the Mac. So it goes.

It's been an interesting 28 years. Apple only gave us a little preview of one product and look at all the drama that's been stirred up!

Thank you for posting something logical. I'm of the mind to enjoy the previews companies put out, keep an open mind, and see how it works when its released. No need to waste time speculating on usability before it comes out. I'm very interested to see one in person and try it out to see if it fits my needs.

 

[goMac]

When I bought my first Mac in 1985 a lot of people criticized it.

"A tiny black and white screen?" they asked mockingly.

"Why is it using a non-standard 3.5" drive instead of the same 5" floppy everyone else uses?"

And you should have heard all the criticism of the user interface. No one thought a GUI was better than a CLI. I had plenty of people tell me that the GUI made the Mac a toy. The mouse was useless.

But then came the desktop publishing revolution which gave rise to giants like Adobe and Quark. Those mocking questions faded away.

For the past 28 years I've listened the complaints. For every person who likes the Mac there are about 10 that like to constantly criticize a computer they will never own. And they never grow tired of telling everyone of how the Mac is a failure, doesn't have this technology or has the wrong technology and so on.

I'm sure that the new Mac Pro will not make everyone happy. I'm sure that some professionals will switch platforms. And others will switch to the Mac. So it goes.

It's been an interesting 28 years. Apple only gave us a little preview of one product and look at all the drama that's been stirred up!

Don't even start me on the people who insisted the iMac was going to be a failure because it didn't have a floppy drive and no PCI slots.

 

[Tesselator]

I would have thought that either PT or Logic Pro was the most popular DAW software package. What is more popular than either of those?

Ya, to clarify I didn't mean per package. Like for example the number of users in the list:

Macaroons: 100
Chocolates: 90
Angel-food: 85
Bud Light: 80
Fruit loops: 45
​

Show Macaroons to be #1 but it's still only 25% of all eater's favorite. Likewise I guess PT users are probably far less than 5% all apps considered.

Saw your icon button farm! The one that stood out was from Bias! Sad they went under earlier this year! Been using Peak forever! Long Live Peak!

Yeah, Peak is cool. I dig that Vbox feature! Nice! Kinda reminds me of a built-in RAX or something.

 

[flat five]

It reminds me of the time I built a computer on my kitchen table and didn't bother to put anything in a case. It worked fine, and I didn't even need fans, but we have moved on since then.

right.. and it looks like we'll be moving on even further than that..

the only thing different (obviously not the only thing) between then and now is that all those weird looking electronic thingies are inside a box.. but if you want to expand the computer (by doing something crazy like adding/swapping a hard drive), you're still exposed to the same stuff you had on your kitchen table and digging around in there with a screwdriver etc..

i mean, apple is touting this thing as the most expandable mac ever and people around here are claiming it's losing expansion capabilities.. as in- you all are saying the exact opposite of what apple is saying. (and yes, companies lie etc.. all the time. i get it.. but is this instance an outright lie? is it miscommunication? what is it?)

or maybe, they're just talking to (assuming) the vast majority of their buyers (pros and non-pros) who would never dig around inside their computer out of, basically, fear.. (you know, the same people that take their cars to the shop in order to switch the burnt tail light -- most people)

it's a plug and play world.. and, to me at least, that's not a bad thing at all.. in fact, it's a great thing from a usability standpoint.

 

[Unn4]

Reading this thread and got impression many people try to justify MP's new design. Unfortunately seems as to be pro in this world with Apple you need to be also a rich man... (as you will not be able to upgrade manually cheaper...).

 

[flat five]

Reading this thread and got impression many people try to justify MP's new design.

or, you know.. maybe they actually like it?

 

[wonderspark]

I'm personally amazed by people that can't be bothered to open up their property.

A couple weeks ago my radiator popped, draining all the coolant onto the freeway.

I limped it home and found a $90 replacement the next day, and I was driving again that afternoon. It was almost too easy to fix myself, and the dealer wanted over $350 for the radiator alone, never mind the labor to replace it... probably another $300. The average person would most likely have called a tow-truck, rented a car while the dealer ordered in new parts, and then paid around $1000 after the whole ordeal was over.

I'm glad for people with more money than sense, and the boost they give our economy. I know there are some that just don't care, or don't think they have the time... but in most cases, I can fix/modify my things faster for a fraction of the price, as opposed to taking it in to Apple, a car dealer or whatever.

 

[flat five]

yeah @wonderspark.. i hear you

it's not like a lot of people are born incapable in those regards.. in fact, i feel as if the vast majority of people are perfectly capable of building/assembling/etc..

i don't know if it's our school system or what but something goes wrong between age 8 and 18 which carries on into adulthood..

(but i guess that's a discussion for somewhere else..)

[edit] but hey- i don't doubt the corporations have a lot to do with this problem as well.. as in 'we need the corporations because we're too dumb' etc.

 

[iSee]

I'm personally amazed by people that can't be bothered to open up their property.

A couple weeks ago my radiator popped, draining all the coolant onto the freeway.

I limped it home and found a $90 replacement the next day, and I was driving again that afternoon. It was almost too easy to fix myself, and the dealer wanted over $350 for the radiator alone, never mind the labor to replace it... probably another $300. The average person would most likely have called a tow-truck, rented a car while the dealer ordered in new parts, and then paid around $1000 after the whole ordeal was over.

I'm glad for people with more money than sense, and the boost they give our economy. I know there are some that just don't care, or don't think they have the time... but in most cases, I can fix/modify my things faster for a fraction of the price, as opposed to taking it in to Apple, a car dealer or whatever.

That's a nice story but I don't think it's sensible to try to fix a car radiator if you don't have the expertise, tools, workspace, or time to do so.

 

[wonderspark]

That's a nice story but I don't think it's sensible to try to fix a car radiator if you don't have the expertise, tools, workspace, or time to do so.

For what it's worth, it was my first time ever replacing a radiator. I didn't even have to look at the shop manual, it was so easy.

It's the same way inside Apple devices, and if one were to be apprehensive about the task, there are all sorts of step-by-step guides to show you exactly what to do.

It's the information age colliding with the why-bother generation and an 'everything-is-disposable' attitude. I think that's sad.

 

[GermanyChris]

I'm personally amazed by people that can't be bothered to open up their property.

A couple weeks ago my radiator popped, draining all the coolant onto the freeway.

I limped it home and found a $90 replacement the next day, and I was driving again that afternoon. It was almost too easy to fix myself, and the dealer wanted over $350 for the radiator alone, never mind the labor to replace it... probably another $300. The average person would most likely have called a tow-truck, rented a car while the dealer ordered in new parts, and then paid around $1000 after the whole ordeal was over.

I'm glad for people with more money than sense, and the boost they give our economy. I know there are some that just don't care, or don't think they have the time... but in most cases, I can fix/modify my things faster for a fraction of the price, as opposed to taking it in to Apple, a car dealer or whatever.

Thank you!

----------

That's a nice story but I don't think it's sensible to try to fix a car radiator if you don't have the expertise, tools, workspace, or time to do so.

how else are you going to gain the expertise and tools if you don't dig in and do it?

 

[TheGoldenApple]

Such criticism should only be coming from a cheesy Windows 8 supporter who is pissed off about no longer having a start button

TEE HEE

----------

don't even start me on the people who insisted the imac was going to be a failure because it didn't have a floppy drive and no pci slots.

the mac doesn't need a floppy disc drive

----------

When I bought my first Mac in 1985 a lot of people criticized it.

"A tiny black and white screen?" they asked mockingly.

"Why is it using a non-standard 3.5" drive instead of the same 5" floppy everyone else uses?"

And you should have heard all the criticism of the user interface. No one thought a GUI was better than a CLI. I had plenty of people tell me that the GUI made the Mac a toy. The mouse was useless.

But then came the desktop publishing revolution which gave rise to giants like Adobe and Quark. Those mocking questions faded away.

For the past 28 years I've listened the complaints. For every person who likes the Mac there are about 10 that like to constantly criticize a computer they will never own. And they never grow tired of telling everyone of how the Mac is a failure, doesn't have this technology or has the wrong technology and so on.

I'm sure that the new Mac Pro will not make everyone happy. I'm sure that some professionals will switch platforms. And others will switch to the Mac. So it goes.

It's been an interesting 28 years. Apple only gave us a little preview of one product and look at all the drama that's been stirred up!

Good call bro