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MP All Models The Mac Pro Paradox
- Thread starter TobiasT
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Many wanted essentially a 5,1 Mac Pro updated with current technology.
And in fact, the very heart of the community, the enthusiasts that saved apple during the think different days (and those ads were a love letter to who... the enthusiasts. Not the pros. Not the grandma and grandpas. Not Joe/Jane average, it was the enthusiasts that saved apple), and this 7,1 Mac Pro is a middle finger to them.
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Apple missed the lesson. They saw pros leaving and that's a problem and at least they saw that. But they missed the bigger and more important group of loyal customer influencers, THE ENTHUSIASTS. And all these loser pundits help them feel they are right rather than balling up and saying, no, apple, youre REALLY REALLY REALLY wrong here.
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Anyway, I'm not sure what question you were angling at, but thanks for the opportunity to rant!
You're very welcome! I enjoy reading your thoughts and fully agree. When Apple was nearly flatlined, NeXT a company that spent $4 billion of other people's money and was close to bankruptcy, crashed into the Apple of the 90s which was something like 30-60 days from being bankrupt itself, and then ... MagiC! Entirely powered by crazy people who wanted to believe.
I guess the point of my own rambling was that Apple is acting a lot like Apple always has. it's not exactly unprecedented. They could do better for the enthusiasts. They could put the Think Different full text back on the TextEdit icon too!
As far as the pundits go, well, I fully understand why iJustine got a fully loaded Mac Pro and dual XDRs, she's super-insightful; you can just look at her and tell. There's always this weird annoying sound when she talks that makes my brain hurt, but if you hit mute, wow she's gifted.
I think I was asking if you liked the 7,1. I sure do, I never thought I'd see Cheesegrater again! 🍺
I know of a studio that went for a new Rupert Neve board and stayed with their 6,1 mac pro... it was a good choice....
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In one breath you call the 8 core lame, then suggest a 6 core
Also, Apple has chosen to use the Intel W-3200 family of CPUs in the 7,1 NcMP. The least powerful CPU in that family is the W-3223, the 8 core Apple uses in their Base machine. Any deviation from that family would require a redesign. Who would pay for that
Lou
You're very welcome! I enjoy reading your thoughts and fully agree. When Apple was nearly flatlined, NeXT a company that spent $4 billion of other people's money and was close to bankruptcy, crashed into the Apple of the 90s which was something like 30-60 days from being bankrupt itself, and then ... MagiC! Entirely powered by crazy people who wanted to believe.
I guess the point of my own rambling was that Apple is acting a lot like Apple always has. it's not exactly unprecedented. They could do better for the enthusiasts. They could put the Think Different full text back on the TextEdit icon too!
As far as the pundits go, well, I fully understand why iJustine got a fully loaded Mac Pro and dual XDRs, she's super-insightful; you can just look at her and tell. There's always this weird annoying sound when she talks that makes my brain hurt, but if you hit mute, wow she's gifted.
I think I was asking if you liked the 7,1. I sure do, I never thought I'd see Cheesegrater again! 🍺
Yes, I really surprised by how much I ended up liking the 7,1. I don't know how to explain it. The machine just feels solid. I went into a little detail in this thread on my thoughts:
For those having received their MP7,1 what are your thoughts - good or bad ?
I was super worried I'd have buyers remorse. But am super glad I took the plunge. I got a 28core machine with base graphics and 256SSD and upgraded memory, got a PCI card to drive a Micron 9300 Pro 15.36TB U.2 SSD (and don't even bother mounting the useless apple T2 SSD) and I yanked out the...
forums.macrumors.com
Good point. I'm ranting so not being exacting. Apologies. Lame for a $6k machine. Fine for a $3.5k machine. By next year the 8 core is fine.
Also, in one of these other threads someone put in a non W chip, I think, and it worked but had an issue in that you cannot address as much ram/memory. I think this is a fine "compromise" if they release an entry machine that can only address say 384GB of ram or something like that. Halve the ram slots or something like that.
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Apple is afraid of slots.
The very first Mac was an AIO, Steve was a control freak and Woz upset his headspace with the slots. No slots for you!
Ya know, the Apple II carried the whole company for years while they were trying to bury it. They've really been trying to kill the Mac Pro since the dawn of time if you look at in the right perspective.
Everything is Steve Jobs' fault. I miss him very much.
The very first Mac was an AIO, Steve was a control freak and Woz upset his headspace with the slots. No slots for you!
Ya know, the Apple II carried the whole company for years while they were trying to bury it. They've really been trying to kill the Mac Pro since the dawn of time if you look at in the right perspective.
Everything is Steve Jobs' fault. I miss him very much.
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Thanks for the clarification. I know I had the top of the line B&W with the SCSI drive, was that one more than the top of the line beige G3?
I don’t see the point of comparing the new Mac Pro with the old one.
The target market for the new Mac Pro is a heavy user who still cannot get enough power from a souped up iMac Pro. It stands to reason that it should cost more as well.
The old Mac Pro made sense when there was no other “pro” Mac. I am dubious as to whether Apple even made any money from selling the 2013 Mac Pro.
Today, I would guesstimate that the 2013 Mac Pro is roughly equivalent to a 2019 iMac in terms of performance, with the iMac having a slight edge due to its built-in 5k display and more modern ports.
As such, it makes sense that an iMac Pro would cost more than a 2013 Mac Pro, and the 2019 Mac Pro would cost even more than the previous Mac Pro, because they are now targeting different demographics.
This brings me back to my original point about the Mac Pro being aimed at heavy users. If we assume that someone is buying a Mac Pro because their use case is so intense that even a maxed out iMac Pro isn’t enough, then it stands to reason that they are most certainly not going to purchase the base Mac Pro as is. They are going to spec it to the point where it rivals or even exceeds an iMac or iMac Pro in terms of specs. Otherwise, why buy one if an iMac Pro or MBP will suffice?
And since you are going to spec it out anyways, this will definitely push up the price to the point where the initial cost of the case is now but a fraction of the final price you are going to pay.
Second, since you can now upgrade the internals on your own, this means that you will be able to keep the base Mac Pro chassis and swap out the internals as desired. Say you decide to hang on to the Mac Pro for another 7-10 years. Your average fixed cost is now lower as it is being spread out over a longer period of time, unlike an iMac Pro or MBP where you might be compelled to upgrade it every 3-5 years because the internals are practically glued in.
So it comes to a point where the Mac Pro does cost more upfront, but it eventually pays for itself in the long run (and assuming you do hold on to it for that long).
AFAIK Only the Chinese government supports non-profitable businesses in a sustainable manner so far. Neither Cuban nor Venezuelan governments succeeded so far in this area. Why would a private company be doing this without subsidies?
Is there a reason why you feel the enthusiasts are somehow obligated to a seat amongst the ruling elite, apart from being able to claim to having been there at Apple’s greatest time of need?
The simple fact of the matter is that Apple is fundamentally a very different company than it used to be. Yes, 20 years ago, Apple was a company living on the edge, with its existence buoyed by a small group of die-hard fans who looked to Apple for technology and aesthetic leadership. I can only imagine the loyalty and conviction it took to hold shares or being invested in a company teetering on the edge of non-existence.
I salute you enthusiasts for having the conviction to stand the tide against the “default”, and for your struggles in staying a Mac user in the face of a stark lack of software choices and hardware compatibilities. You backed Apple because you believed. I am able to teach in my classroom using an iPad Pro mirrored to an Apple TV because of people like you who believed in Apple at a time when no one else would. For that, I salute you.
But that was then. Today, the proportion of Apple’s user base who are (still) true believers is much smaller compared to its total overall user base. This is what Apple has to work with, which is very different from the kind of identify and conviction-based loyalty that sustained it through its darkest days.
The problem is that Apple’s current user base isn’t a flock that can be led around anymore. Instead of leading a flock, Apple now has to cater to an audience, which is a drastically different relationship.
And I feel that in this new reality, that original core enthusiast base simply don’t matter anymore. You all got to enjoy the ride from the start, but your secluded island has now been inundated by a population of visitors who outnumber you thousands to one. And it is this new population, and not the old group, which sets the tone for what kind of company Apple will be, because they have the power in this new relationship.
Which brings me back to my earlier point about the Mac Pro not being designed with you enthusiasts in mind. And you are further deluding yourself by believing that you are somehow owed something by Apple just because. Apple is a company. They targeted a niche market of professionals who hungered for something better at a time when nobody else could offer them that, when it made financial sense for them to do so.
Just as Apple is evidently abandoning the Pro Mac market and doubling down on mobile and wearables because it makes financial sense for them to do so.
Has Apple “lost its way”? Apple is slowly transitioning into a much more traditional company, and its behaviour will start to match those of a traditional company’s behaviour. If you want to consider that as them “losing their way”, then yeah.
I wouldn’t call it “losing their way”, though. Circumstances changed, and the company changed, and that’s just the way she goes.
Pride. Apple wanted to show that they could still “innovate my ass”. When you consider that it was manufactured in the US, sold in low volumes, plus the support costs due to the reportedly high failure rates, I suspect this was mainly a vanity project that didn’t quite pan out the way Apple wanted.
For someone who wants expandability there is no other comparison. I doubt many people making such comparisons would be fine with the 2019 Mac Pro if:
- The entry price was at least a couple of thousand dollars less
- There was an alternative, headless, internally expandable option
So first, thanks for proving my point again telling enthusiasts 'it aint 4 u' and apparantly you know best. You are the sherpa that can interpret apple properly for us. Not the enthusiasts themselves, we need experts telling us, no no no, what you really need.... what you really want.... and those experts of course are oblivious of the insult they are imparting on telling people they know better than us... the enthusiasts that have been around from before forever. Yea sure, we'll take it under advisement.
As for what makes this group worth keeping. I'll start with a question. What makes pros worth keeping. All your comments equally apply to the pros. Yet apple realized it's a mistake to antagonize them and they were/are leaving in droves due to lack of a real Mac Pro until the 7,1. It's a nothing market relative to the bulk of sales at Apple. And you can say the same thing about many other halo products at other companies. I think Acura sold around 200 NSX supercars last year, which is a nothing to them fiscally. The point is the pro's are influencers.
They influence many times their purchases. And I would argue, the enthusiasts influence many many more around them. Many pros just dont care about a platform, they just want to get their work done. Not all pros are enthusiasts. But many enthusiasts are pros. And many more enthusiasts are not pros but they are power users. And they evangelize the platform and act as IT for their family and friends. The ripple effects are real and vast. Also they push technology to do things, to figure things out. They tinker. In these very forums we have people that updated the boot firmware on the Mac Pro to boot NVMe drives before apple did, modify PC video cards to get them working on Mac pros, and now are figuring out how to get thunderbolt working on a 5,1 which is a system never designed for such a thing. These people disproportionally push the rest of us forward.
And while apple certainly doesn't need these people, today, for revenue, they are the very same people that prosthalatized and helped apple get to where it is today, despite it being a joke when they started. You never know when you'll need to lean on your loyal supporters, and you are a fool to cross them. Tesla today is much more successful than it started, but it has very loyal customers, and Tesla isn't stupid enough to alienate them. Most businesses dream of having 'cult like' loyal support, they try to cultivate it, alienating those users is just a basic bad business practice.
And perhaps most important. NEVER BURN BRIDGES! You never know when you'll need them again. But apple has basically done that to its enthusiasts. It's short sighted. After Steve Jobs left apple, John Skulley in the next few years grew apple with the largest sales it ever had... and then without Steve innovation dried up, stagnation crept in, and sales went to hell. Some might see analogies to now. Steve is gone, apple is different. And sales are are at record levels. But at some point, they may not be. And woe is apple if they basically got rid of the very enthusiasts they would need to weather the storm.
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You dont see the point of comparing two products with the identical name. Well that speaks for itself. No more analysis necessary.
It’s called “jobs to be done”.
Whatever it is you all want an xMac for, chances are an iMac, Mac mini with e-GPU or even a 15” MBP with 1-2 5k LG displays can do the job just as ably. That you want to be able to use your own monitor or access the internals more readily doesn’t matter to Apple. From their perspective, the iMac is a great all-round desktop computer that can cater to both casual and professional users alike. That and Apple clearly has little desire to cater to the hackintosh market.
The Mac Pro of old was the most powerful computer Apple had to offer then. Just as the Mac Pro today is the most powerful computer Apple has to offer, so it naturally comes with a price tag fitting of that position.
Or let me phrase it another way. Why do you think the Mac Pro ought to cost any less than the iMac Pro?
Really, the product name is "jobs to be done". Mhmmm. Becareful building those straw man, wont be anything left for the cows on the farm.
You need to focus on your reading. I do not want an xMac. I specifically said so. Just need a cheaper entry level Mac Pro. AND THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH AGAIN telling us we should be just fine with an iMac/mini because... wait for it... you said so!
Tada.
Um, the iMac Pro comes with a built in screen for starters. It's also 2 years old dead technology, so... um yea, that.
or about the job of attaching one or two larger monitors and hiding the not-so-useful 27“ display it comes with?
Don 't think it was ever suggested that Apple was a money losing business. Abazigal said he has doubts that Apple made any money from the sale of the 6,1 nMP. One product in a diverse line.
Lou
Sorry, but not entirely correct. Only the quad-core was a "Quad", and it was a bit more expensive.
G5/2.0 dual-core (Oct. 2005): $1,999 -> $2647 (today)
G5/2.3 dual-core (Oct. 2005): $2,499 -> $3309 (today)
G5/2.5 quad-core (Oct. 2005): $3,299 -> $4370 (today)
The 7,1 fits that perfectly for those using the machines. But upgrades include things like a T2 chip that's preventing us all from messing with the SSDs in any modern Mac, similarly the case, the motherboard, the cooling system are pretty nice state of the art pieces of engineering. At the base model (which I feel should not even exist), the cost of that weighs heavily, while at the more upgraded (more realistic to be bought by those who seek to use it, not tinker with it) the components that are pretty high up on the price curve make all the engineering in the base system affordable.
So yes: the MP7,1 is expensive. But it gives us a dead silent high-performance machine, something NO other Mac ever gave us. Every other Mac going full throttle also makes a lot of fan noise, and probably throttles the CPU and GPU back due to thermal restrictions.
There are lower cost solutions to get a Mac with PCIe slots, you just hook it up with a TB3 cable to any current Mac, that's all it takes.
To me, it keeps on sounding like y'all are looking for a Mac Tinkerer. And it's also very clear the requirements used on the MP7,1 engineering were not to make a cheap machine.
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You don’t need to be able to upgrade a computer yourself in order to be a professional.
Being able to do so is a nice little perk, but ultimately one which has little bearing on how productive one can be, or the sort of work that they do.
As I said before in my initial post, it’s apparent that a lot of the perceived demand for a “pro Mac” is really a desire for a “hobbyist Mac,” a Mac for people who like tinkering with computers.
And not all enthusiasts are professionals, just as not all professionals are enthusiasts (ie: they need the additional specs, but don’t necessarily care about being able to access the inside of a computer).
And now that even entry level Macs have gotten very capable, these two categories could not be more distinct.
So you're the sole arbiter of what everyone else needs?
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TB3 is not the same as having PCIe slots.