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propower

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2010
731
126
For my use case I see an average temp of ~60degC average on the i5 3.8. The Audio part puts a constant 20 to 30% load on the CPU in general (can be up at 50 or 60% sometimes) and driving the second monitor chain put ~35W into the GPU. Rendering 5 to 10minute videos with Turbo OFF takes things to ~80degC peak.

I should add that although I wrote about the 2013MP above - the only models of those that i know are the stock quad and a custom Hex with the smallest video option (D300). I have seen mention of the upper model (D700) having some temp issues. It probably is more true that the MP cooling system is super effective for these lower models and maybe not so much when one get to the high end - especially for serious video folks fully utilizing both GPUs.
 

ka111n

macrumors newbie
Aug 7, 2017
12
1
For my use case I see an average temp of ~60degC average on the i5 3.8. The Audio part puts a constant 20 to 30% load on the CPU in general (can be up at 50 or 60% sometimes) and driving the second monitor chain put ~35W into the GPU. Rendering 5 to 10minute videos with Turbo OFF takes things to ~80degC peak.

I should add that although I wrote about the 2013MP above - the only models of those that i know are the stock quad and a custom Hex with the smallest video option (D300). I have seen mention of the upper model (D700) having some temp issues. It probably is more true that the MP cooling system is super effective for these lower models and maybe not so much when one get to the high end - especially for serious video folks fully utilizing both GPUs.

What results with Turbo on? How do fans feel at this time? What would you recommend for silence and maximum performance of 7600 or 7600k? Thank you and sorry for my bad Eng.
 

mollyc

macrumors G3
Aug 18, 2016
8,069
50,848
I have the i7/580. I just did a little bit of light editing in LR with an adjustment brush and heard the fans spin up, which never happened on my 2012 iMac. However, the brush also did not lag at all, which is a vast improvement. I will take the little bit of noise for better performance (especially because after reading all of this thread for the past few weeks I was not surprised by the noise).
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,996
12,962
That might all change with High Sierra and them putting the windowserver on Metal. Even on my top of the line 2016 Macbook Pro I see UI lag. Even with my iMac with the 580 I can see UI lag. I tested High Sierra and it was much better. It was still a little bit buggy, but I consider that to be because it is in beta.
Where are you seeing the lag? If there are dropped frames, I'm not really noticing it. Or at least not enough to care.

Hmm... Maybe I should not learn where it is, because then it may be hard to unsee it. ;)

I have the i7/580. I just did a little bit of light editing in LR with an adjustment brush and heard the fans spin up, which never happened on my 2012 iMac. However, the brush also did not lag at all, which is a vast improvement. I will take the little bit of noise for better performance (especially because after reading all of this thread for the past few weeks I was not surprised by the noise).
I noticed similar behaviour in Photos and other stuff. With some types of activities I could occasionally get the 2017 i7's fan to spin up, even though that never happened with my 2012 i7 iMac.

It wasn't actually too bad, but it was still annoying. I suspect a lot of people just wouldn't care, but as time went on it just got more irritating to me.
 

joema2

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2013
1,646
866
...It wasn't actually too bad, but it was still annoying. I suspect a lot of people just wouldn't care, but as time went on it just got more irritating to me.

While I really don't think the 2017 i7 is any worse than the 2013 or 2015 (I have all three), this is still a valid concern. E.g, on my 2017 i7 I was editing some 38-to-43 megapixel raw stills from a Nikon D810 and Sony A7RII, and after a while the fan spun up noticeably. It wasn't at 2700 rpm but I could hear it, despite having several spinning RAID arrays on the same desk. This was using LightRoom CC 2015.10.1 (the latest version). Doing a lot of adjustment brush work seemed to especially trigger it.

What we really need is someone like Max Yuryev to do a thorough test of the 2017 i5 vs i7 from both real-world performance and noise standpoints. I know from past tests that hyperthreading didn't help Lightroom at all. If an i5 iMac 27 is fast enough for your specific workload (which is increasingly possible with the 3.8Ghz i5 that turbos to 4.2Ghz), then you avoid most of the concerns over noise.

As a video editor I need every iota of performance I can get, so the i7 is best for me and I don't really mind the relatively infrequent noise. However anyone who is very noise sensitive might want to evaluate or consider both i5 and i7 options.
 
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propower

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2010
731
126
What results with Turbo on? How do fans feel at this time? What would you recommend for silence and maximum performance of 7600 or 7600k? Thank you and sorry for my bad Eng.

With Turbo ON I have ~5degC rise in temps for my audio work. So no problem there. When i did a 12 minute video encode (1080p to 720p ProRes in iMovie) the fan came on ~4 minutes in and went to ~1800RPM. I timed the same encode with Turbo OFF and the time difference was basically zero. Temps stayed in the low 80s.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,996
12,962
What we really need is someone like Max Yuryev to do a thorough test of the 2017 i5 vs i7 from both real-world performance and noise standpoints. I know from past tests that hyperthreading didn't help Lightroom at all. If an i5 iMac 27 is fast enough for your specific workload (which is increasingly possible with the 3.8Ghz i5 that turbos to 4.2Ghz), then you avoid most of the concerns over noise.
It should be noted that all-core Turbo for the 3.8 GHz i5 7600K is 4.0 GHz.All-core Turbo for the 3.5 GHz i5 7600 is 3.9 GHz, which is a 3% difference. This reflected in all-core multi-threaded work, which shows a 2-8% difference between the two.

For Blender, note the similarity of the 7600 vs the 7600K (7.5% difference). However, there is a huge difference of both of them vs the i7 7700K as you are well aware.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/intel...-i7-7700-i5-7600k-i5-7600,review-33752-4.html

01-Ryzen.png


02a-Cinebench-Multi-Core_w_600.png


06e-Adobe-After-Effects.png
 

ka111n

macrumors newbie
Aug 7, 2017
12
1
With Turbo ON I have ~5degC rise in temps for my audio work. So no problem there. When i did a 12 minute video encode (1080p to 720p ProRes in iMovie) the fan came on ~4 minutes in and went to ~1800RPM. I timed the same encode with Turbo OFF and the time difference was basically zero. Temps stayed in the low 80s.
Thank you.

Guys please tell me 7600 (without K) also increase fans when video encoding and load in games? I understand that 7600k does this regularly when the temperature rises
 

czacha

macrumors member
Jul 9, 2017
76
24
My custom build i7 6700K 4.0GHz hackintosh does the same thing with fans while working in Lightroom. So looks like it's normal behavior for modern i7 CPUs to spin up fans even for a short amount of time only when needed.
[doublepost=1502274701][/doublepost]
Thank you.

Guys please tell me 7600 (without K) also increase fans when video encoding and load in games? I understand that 7600k does this regularly when the temperature rises
If you want silent then buy PC and put water cooling inside. It start to be some mass paranoia about fans ..

So if you ask if fans spin.. yeah.. they spin! ;)
 
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koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
5,939
1,853
My custom build i7 6700K 4.0GHz hackintosh does the same thing with fans while working in Lightroom. So looks like it's normal behavior for modern i7 CPUs to spin up fans even for a short amount of time only when needed.

If you want silent then buy PC and put water cooling inside. It start to be some mass paranoia about fans ..

So if you ask if fans spin.. yeah.. they spin! ;)
Water Cooling is useful if you overclock. I have experience with it, and was diehard liquid cooling fan. But lately as I shifted to "normal" builds, I appreciate the air cooling for its simplicity, and silence. Noctua NH-U12S cooler is best in the business possibly, and very quiet.
 

czacha

macrumors member
Jul 9, 2017
76
24
Water Cooling is useful if you overclock. I have experience with it, and was diehard liquid cooling fan. But lately as I shifted to "normal" builds, I appreciate the air cooling for its simplicity, and silence. Noctua NH-U12S cooler is best in the business possibly, and very quiet.
You know, people here are crazy about SILENCE ... so looks like water cooling is the only option for them ;)
 
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koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
5,939
1,853
You know, people here are crazy about SILENCE ... so looks like water cooling is the only option for them ;)
There is a lot of very good coolers that are very quiet. Be Quiet Dark Rock 3, Noctua Coolers in general. Even Cryorig H7 Quad Lumi is pretty quiet and has LEDs integrated for those who care about it ;).
 

ka111n

macrumors newbie
Aug 7, 2017
12
1
My custom build i7 6700K 4.0GHz hackintosh does the same thing with fans while working in Lightroom. So looks like it's normal behavior for modern i7 CPUs to spin up fans even for a short amount of time only when needed.
[doublepost=1502274701][/doublepost]
If you want silent then buy PC and put water cooling inside. It start to be some mass paranoia about fans ..

So if you ask if fans spin.. yeah.. they spin! ;)
Thx, but my question was about 7600 and 7600k, and not about i7. This is a big difference in terms of noise. As far as I could understand the 7600 never exceeds the fan speed of more than 1200, and 7600k exceeds when encoding video and other resource-intensive tasks. I'm right?

I think that this information will be useful to everyone who chooses between the high and medium tier model.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,996
12,962
Thx, but my question was about 7600 and 7600k, and not about i7. This is a big difference in terms of noise. As far as I could understand the 7600 never exceeds the fan speed of more than 1200, and 7600k exceeds when encoding video and other resource-intensive tasks. I'm right?

I think that this information will be useful to everyone who chooses between the high and medium tier model.
After about 10 minutes of video encoding my i5 7600 (non-K) was up to about 1800 rpm fan speed, just mildly audible. (Or something like that. I don’t remember the exact speed and time but it’s posted earlier in this thread.)

However, the i7 7700K would reach 2700 rpm in about 30 seconds. 2700 rpm is loud.

i5 7600 took 12.5 mins to do the encode, with the fan mildly audible at the end of the encode for a couple of minutes.

i7 7700K took 10 mins to do the encode, with the fan at maximum for 9.5 minutes.

What do you prefer? 20% less encode time or much quieter fan? After owning the former, I chose the latter, but for my usage, having top speeds was just a luxury and not a necessity.

For continued silence, the i5 7500 (not 7600) may be the best option. One guy here did 4K Plex transcoding for HOURS and IIRC the fan speed never budged from 1200 rpm.
 
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ka111n

macrumors newbie
Aug 7, 2017
12
1
After about 10 minutes of video encoding my i5 7600 (non-K) was up to about 1800 rpm fan speed, just mildly audible. (Or something like that. I don’t remember the exact speed and time but it’s posted earlier in this thread.)

However, the i7 7700K would reach 2700 rpm in about 30 seconds. 2700 rpm is loud.

i5 7600 took 12.5 mins to do the encode, with the fan mildly audible at the end of the encode for a couple of minutes.

i7 7700K took 10 mins to do the encode, with the fan at maximum for 9.5 minutes.

What do you prefer? 20% less encode time or much quieter fan? After owning the former, I chose the latter, but for my usage, having top speeds was just a luxury and not a necessity.

For continued silence, the i5 7500 (not 7600) may be the best option. One guy here did 4K Plex transcoding for HOURS and IIRC the fan speed never budged from 1200 rpm.
Does it mean that between 7600 and 7600k there is no difference in noise if both of them raise the fan to 1800 after 10 minutes video encoding? This is strange, because 7600k more hot chip
 

SaSaSushi

macrumors 601
Aug 8, 2007
4,156
554
Takamatsu, Japan
For continued silence, the i5 7500 (not 7600) may be the best option. One guy here did 4K Plex transcoding for HOURS and IIRC the fan speed never budged from 1200 rpm.

Which is probably why it was going for HOURS. :)

I do get being sensitive to noise but the machines only make that noise when you do certain processor-intensive activities like video encoding. I know because I have an i7 that never makes fan noise except when I am doing certain activities like video encoding.

If you're doing enough of that that it bothers you then I suggest that a 20% boost in performance is probably a no-brainer, particularly for business applications.

And again, I don't remember what RPM the fan in my Late 2013 iMac ran at at max but it was louder than the one in this new machine.
 

ka111n

macrumors newbie
Aug 7, 2017
12
1
For continued silence, the i5 7500 (not 7600) may be the best option. One guy here did 4K Plex transcoding for HOURS and IIRC the fan speed never budged from 1200 rpm.
Why did you choose 7600, and not a similar noise level 7600k or the quietest 7500?
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,996
12,962
Does it mean that between 7600 and 7600k there is no difference in noise if both of them raise the fan to 1800 after 10 minutes video encoding? This is strange, because 7600k more hot chip
In limited testing by members in this thread, the 7600K behaves a lot closer to the 7600 than it does the 7700K, despite the fact the 7600K is a 91 Watt TDP chip and the 7600 is a 65 Watt TDP chip. However, with the one 7600K chip that Tom's Hardware tested, under extreme conditions, the 7600K did get significantly hotter than the 7600, but still nowhere near as hot as the 7700K.

Why did you choose 7600, and not a similar noise level 7600k or the quietest 7500?
Since the 7600K is rated higher at 91 Watts, I didn't want to take the chance of losing the chip lottery and getting a hot one. This was before the people in this thread had posted their 7600K results too, so I was not aware that the 7600K could behave almost just like the 7600 in some cases (if you're lucky). I figured the 7600 was good enough since it is only 100 MHz slower in all-turbo mode, at 3.9 GHz. The 7600K is 4.0 GHz in all-turbo mode. That means in all-turbo mode, the 7600K only has 2.6% more clock speed.

I chose the 7600 over the 7500 just because it was faster, and both are rated for 65 Watts TDP. Again, I was not aware of the 7500's noise results when I ordered the 7600, because the 7500's noise results had not yet been posted. But that's OK, because the 7600 satisfies my preferences in terms of noise behaviour, and has 300 MHz (8.3%) more clock-speed in all-turbo mode, along with a significantly faster GPU, for not too much more money.

Overall, from what we have seen, the 7500 simply runs cool, and the 7700K simply runs hot. The 7600 and 7600K are in-between but on the cooler side. The 7600K can run relatively cool as demonstrated in this thread, but it's not guaranteed since it's rated for 91 Watt TDP. We already know from Tom's review that under extreme conditions, the 7600K can run significantly warmer than the 7600. In contrast, the 7600 is guaranteed to run relatively cool, because it's a 65 Watt TDP chip, but the 7500 often will run even cooler.

Which is probably why it was going for HOURS. :)

I do get being sensitive to noise but the machines only make that noise when you do certain processor-intensive activities like video encoding. I know because I have an i7 that never makes fan noise except when I am doing certain activities like video encoding.
It sounds like you have the appropriate machine for you then.

For me, most of the time it was quiet too, but I didn't like that any processor intensive application (not just video encoding) could get the fan to spin up so quickly. It was a noticeable change from my previous 2010 i7 27" iMac.
 
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SaSaSushi

macrumors 601
Aug 8, 2007
4,156
554
Takamatsu, Japan
For me, most of the time it was quiet too, but I didn't like that any processor intensive application (not just video encoding) could get the fan to spin up so quickly. It was a noticeable change from my previous 2010 i7 27" iMac.

Are you sure you didn't have hardware issues on that machine?

What particular applications aside from encoding were causing this fan spin up? I also use apps that push the CPU but I am not hearing the fans any more frequently than I did on my Late 2013.

In BootCamp Windows 10 before I had Apple's drivers installed the fans were running constantly at a high RPM but that's about it.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,996
12,962
Are you sure you didn't have hardware issues on that machine?
The i7 behaviour is exactly the same as what several others report in this thread. So, no, it wasn't a hardware specific issue for my one machine.

Furthermore, in retrospect perhaps it was to be expected. The PC guys had been complaining about i7 7700K heat issues long before we got our i7 iMacs.

What particular applications aside from encoding were causing this fan spin up? I also use apps that push the CPU but I am not hearing the fans any more frequently than I did on my Late 2013.
That's just it. I didn't hear the fan at all on my 2010 i7 iMac unless I ran it at full tilt for a couple of minutes. For example, importing pictures, or even just repeated fast scrolling through a large Photos library on the 2017 i7 would occasionally get the fan going. Others have reported similar behaviour from the i7 with editing in Adobe Lightroom for example.

This may or may not be similar to a 2013 i7 or 2015 i7, but I wouldn't know, because I never had the 2013 i7 or 2015 i7.
 

SaSaSushi

macrumors 601
Aug 8, 2007
4,156
554
Takamatsu, Japan
even just repeated fast scrolling through a large Photos library on the 2017 i7 would occasionally get the fan going.

I have a very large Photos library so I gave this a try. Yes, I was able to get the fan as high as 2400RPM but it should be noted it didn't even start to ramp up at all until I had been fast-scrolling all the way to the end of the library and back for at least a solid 90 seconds, which is something I will never do in actual usage. After stopping scrolling the fans cycled back to 1200RPM in about 50-60 seconds.

I also wonder if coding issues aren't contributing to excessive CPU usage in some instances and if optimizations in High Sierra won't help to improve things.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,996
12,962
I have a very large Photos library so I gave this a try. Yes, I was able to get the fan as high as 2400RPM but it should be noted it didn't even start to ramp up at all until I had been fast-scrolling all the way to the end of the library and back for at least a solid 90 seconds, which is something I will never do in actual usage. After stopping scrolling the fans cycled back to 1200RPM in about 50-60 seconds.

I also wonder if coding issues aren't contributing to excessive CPU usage in some instances and if optimizations in High Sierra won't help to improve things.
Also, when you drag and drop a video from Photos, it will re-encode the video, which is IMO stupid as a default if no changes have been made, but that's what it does. In Sierra it will quickly get the fan going on the i7. However, IIRC, it doesn't on High Sierra. So that's good. It must be using Intel Quick Sync in High Sierra.

But even better would be to change the behaviour. Re-encoding a non-modified video shouldn't be the default behaviour, because it's a waste of time.
 

propower

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2010
731
126
Like EugW I also had the i7 for a couple of weeks. Is is a great machine. For my uses it ran at Base clock almost all the time. I only did light audio sessions on it and it ran at worst in the 80s. But I also did YES testing on it (each YES fills one of the 8 cores) to simulate my heavier audio work. At 3 YES the fan was going off 1200. 4 YES = Full fan (IIRC). 50% constant load (talking hours on end) is not usual for anyone except Audio folk (AFAIK). The i7 also was able to jump nearly 30degC in a matter of seconds (also normal). This would "kiss" the fan anytime it happened from an already elevated constant CPU load. Since I a) could do my work within an i5 and b) hate fan noise - I choose not to keep the i7.

I also tried a stock i5 3.4 and 3.8. 12 Minute Video encode
With Turbo ON with 3.4 (3.66GHz) 60degC (might not have had 2nd Monitor on then that adds 30W to GPU)
With Turbo OFF on the 3.8 (3.8GHz) - 80degC 1200RPM.
With Turbo ON on 3.8 (4GHz) - 95degC after 3.5 minutes 1800RPM fan.
With the i7 Turbo OFF 95degC 2000+ RPM fan very quick.
Turbo ON = same thing quicker.

Adding in that the 7600 is 3.5 with Turbo to 3.9 (and EugW posts) - having fans ramp a bit on long encodes looks totally in line. Running the 3.8 with Turbo OFF gets the fastest no fan iMac IMO so that + the off chance that the 8G GPU ever becomes important are the reasons I chose it. I also like that should I ever want/need that last 200MHz to 4GHz (all core Turbo) it is there as well.

There is very strangely quite a small difference (IMO) in all the i5s. I suspect they are all the same silicon - just binned into different lots per testing at the factory. The 95W rating on the K part is I believe also an artifact of it being unlocked and able to be overclocked. With the 3.8 and 100% CPU load - 40W @ 3.8, 50W at 4.0. Not hard to see that something like 4.5GHz probably hits 90W.
 

ka111n

macrumors newbie
Aug 7, 2017
12
1
In the end, I think the golden mean is still 7600 (non K). Disabling the turbo is not the recommended procedure. This option does not work properly «out of the box». This requires special software. To the same 7600k 3.8 even with the disabled turbo will increase the speed of the fans faster than 7600 (non K) turbo on 3.9, since the chip is hotter. I hope you understand my thoughts, i’m sorry for my bad English.
 
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EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,996
12,962
In the end, I think the golden mean is still 7600 (non K). Disabling the turbo is not the recommended procedure. This option does not work properly «out of the box». This requires special software. To the same 7600k 3.8 even with the disabled turbo will increase the speed of the fans faster than 7600 (non K) turbo on 3.9, since the chip is hotter. I hope you understand my thoughts, i’m sorry for my bad English.
That is not necessarily correct. The 7600K already runs reasonably cool (at least if you get a decent one). With Turbo deactivated, it would run even cooler.

As we have learned from this thread, the 91 Watt TDP rating for the 7600K is not necessarily indicative of how hot it will run.

However, I agree it's kind of pointless to spend the money to buy a 3.8 GHz 7600K just to run it without Turbo, unless the reason you want it is to get the Radeon Pro 580 GPU.
 
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