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The new Mac mini is almost certainly coming
- Thread starter GabrieleR
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OK, but I fail to see your point. In reality, hardly anyone uses Logic Pro alone without 3rd party plug-ins, which is the REAL issue why many people (myself included) still prefer to use Intel Macs for the time being. But you've already made this argument earlier in the thread, if you remember? Or maybe you're just subtly trolling me, I dunno.
We are clearly both fans of Apple to an extent, but I'm simply calling out obvious BS from Apple, and you're not. That's fine, we're all entitled to our opinions. I'm just not into making excuses for a trillion dollar company, who is making the lives of its DAW users needlessly complicated.
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You can download it and then make a USB boot drive. Just follow the instructions on that page I linked. It’s all there. They even provide a link to instructions how make a bootable installer.
And I expect my response back then is the same as it is now - it is the responsibility of those vendors to make their plug-ins compatible with the Apple Silicon version of Logic Pro since Apple made their intentions clear over two years ago and laid out a roadmap of when they intended to end production of Intel Macs (which has now happened with the exception of the top-end and bottom end models - the Pro and the mini).
So if I was in your situation, I would be upset at those vendors for not updating for Apple Silicon. Only if Apple was deliberately denying those vendors access to the APIs they need, or had deprecated APIs they used with the Intel version and not provided a replacement for Apple Silicon would I be pointing the finger at Apple.
What you see as "BS" I see an "unreasonable customer demands". To me, it is like people demanding in 1994 that Apple continuing to update 68K Macs with Motorola 68060s after the move to PowerPC or in 2006 demanding Apple update PowerPC Macs to POWER6 family CPUs when they moved to Intel "because new versions of the existing chips are available".
macOS was saddled with the Carbon APIs for years because vendors like Adobe dragged their arses moving their codebase to Cocoa. And one certainly cannot claim Adobe lacked the financial or human resources to migrate their code.
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well from an aesthetics and initial setup point of view, I can’t see how it differs from brand new. I’ve not used it in anger as yet but so far it’s been spot on. If there is any whine, i can’t hear it.
You can install the oldest OS, that originally came with that machine.
The Mac mini 2014, when it was sold, came with the following OSes:
OS X 10.10 Yosemite
OS X 10.11 El Capitan
macOS 10.12 Sierra
macOS 10.13 High Sierra
macOS 10.14 Mojave (released in June 2018, months before the Mac mini 2018 was announced)
for macOS 10.15 Catalina, I am not sure, but the refurb models in the Apple Store could come with it a year later
So, technically you could install Yosemite on any Mac mini 2014, if it wasn't limited by Apple in any (software) way.
Given that the Euro is weak to the US dollar that is largely a given though where in Europe one is sets the bar.
For example, the base Mini, $699 right now, is € 819,00 in Italy (€ 153 VAT), 777 € in Luxembourg (VAT not stated on Apple's web site), and 799.00 € in France (€ 134.00 VAT) and Germany (€ 139,00 VAT) — note these prices include VAT legal charges while US prices don't include that and the taxes vary wildly.
If you take out the VAT (to Normalize the base cost) much of the EU was getting a mini for a far cheaper base than we in the states were as that ~665 € base works to be US $ 650.
Don't blame Apple for your currency exchange rate getting worse and Apple deciding you should pay closer to the base we in the US do.
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I have never fully blamed Apple (see previous posts). I agree with what you have said. What I will say is, for those in Euope, Apple’s USD to EUR or GBP exchange rate is worse than many other companies.
I don't know as exchange rates tend to drift and if your predictions show a weakening exchange rate than it makes perfect logic to go for the rate you think it will be in the future.
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Currently looking at Reaktor (notoriously not yet Apple Silicon native) happily working as a Logic plug-in on a Mac Studio. I'm sure there are a number of plug-ins that just won't work, and you'd want a 'critical mass' of the plug-ins you use to be native before switching - but it's not like Apple just left everybody high and dry: they included an interface to let Logic on Apple Silicon host Intel plug-ins via Rosetta.
After 2 years we're getting to the stage where anything not yet ported to Apple Silicon/Universal is probably abandonware anyway, and would be getting broken by new MacOS releases even on Intel.
The alternative is the history of Windows - held back and heavily burdened by the need to run 20+ year-old software. They've got their modern .net/common language runtime development stack that compiles everything to portable bytecode, which should make migration to ARM, RISC-V or whatever straightforward, but they're still having to support Win32 stuff (and have only recently completely dropped DOS-era Win16 compatibility - which still ran under the 32 bit version of Windows 10 - by that standard Apple would have still been supporting 6502 code in Mojave
)
This is where your theory fall flat on its face though. Because as Europeans, we can NOT take VAT out of the equation. We are always stuck with VAT.
Not entirely true since many people buying Macs for business use will be able to reclaim the VAT.
(Any businesses with an annual turnover - not profit - over £85k has to register for VAT and charge VAT on their products and services, but can then reclaim VAT on business expenses - under £85k and you can choose whether or not it's worth registering. That's in the UK - AFAIK the rules in the EU are the same). Back in the good/bad old 1980s, advertised computer prices (or anything else that could be plausibly described as 'business supplies') didn't show VAT anyway.
Anyway, the point is that the VAT is outside of Apple's control & doesn't end up in their pocket (pretty sure their turnover is over £85k, despite the best efforts of their tax advisors
)
In the US and Canada sales/use taxes are added on top of the base price. For instance, here in BC we get 12% (5% GST and 7% PST) added on top of the purchase price. A purchaser in Los Angeles would add 9.5% (6% CA state tax + 3.5% county tax). There are few places where you can avoid this such as Oregon where there is no sales tax but it's made up for by income tax.
Our advertised base price would be the comparable to your price with VAT removed, or alternatively your price would be comparable to our price plus tax which varies wildly by jurisdiction.
I'm also considering buying a 2018 Mac Mini to get me through when Apple releases the new M2 Mac Mini. A 2018 Mini should be better than a 2014 Mini. At least it's still a current computer.
And here I am still rocking my 2012 Mini. I plan to upgrade when the next Mini comes out.
You missed the whole point I was making. The base cost ie without taxes (US and Canadian version of VAT which varies wildly depending on location) of a Mac is lower in Europe than here in the US with the added cost being taxes.
Heck, back on Aug 10, 2022 enc0re stated:
"To expand on sales tax being baked into the price already, a quick Googling says that VAT in Germany, for example, is 19%. Subtract that out and you are at a price of 1,057.98 €. Which is cheaper than the U.S. price."
Which I replied with:
"The base price may be cheaper but I don't think there is anywhere in the US where the State+country+city tax is above 15% much less an eye watering 19%. Heck, AFAIK the highest sales tax in the US is Tacoma, Washington at 10.30% and ordering on line doesn't always result in the local sales tax."
For the TLDR crowd: Don't use your taxes and added charges to claim Apple is more expensive in your region. Barring reimbursement (which varies wildly) Apple doesn't see that money.
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The price without VAT/sales tax is not hypothetical. It’s what Apple/The retailer actually gets paid for the product. Comparing any other figure between countries with different sales tax rates and/or where sales tax isn’t included in price stickers is nonsense.
Much the same here in the US — "Sales taxes you incur operating your business are deductible on your Schedule C, while sales taxes you personally incur may be deductible on Schedule A if you itemize your deductions and choose not to deduct state income taxes paid."Not entirely true since many people buying Macs for business use will be able to reclaim the VAT.
(Any businesses with an annual turnover - not profit - over £85k has to register for VAT and charge VAT on their products and services, but can then reclaim VAT on business expenses - under £85k and you can choose whether or not it's worth registering. That's in the UK - AFAIK the rules in the EU are the same). Back in the good/bad old 1980s, advertised computer prices (or anything else that could be plausibly described as 'business supplies') didn't show VAT anyway.
Anyway, the point is that the VAT is outside of Apple's control & doesn't end up in their pocket (pretty sure their turnover is over £85k, despite the best efforts of their tax advisors
Due to the "fun" (read Rube Goldberg) way the IRS does things sales taxes are considered as "cost of the property" ie treated as if they were akin to a VAT. So one would use Line 18 of the Schedule C instead of Line 23 (This is a very gross simplification of US taxes)
Never mind that in some US localities (Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon) there is no sales tax.
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So is it safe to buy a mini now or is anything coming soon ?
Soon as in before xmas 🎅
Soon as in before xmas 🎅
Right, Heck removing VAT allows Normalization of prices and see if things are more expensive due Apple or the local government piling on taxes.
I’m not saying it’s hypothetical for businesses. The “leaving the VAT out” premise is a hypothetical one for EU consumers. They can NOT not add it to the total cost.
And I am not pointing any fingers for this to Apple (apparently that was what someone her was implying.. I don’t know). All I am saying is that for us as EU consumers there is no going around VAT so looking at a product cost without VAT is pointless to us (consumers).
Again you mised the whole point of the post that caused us to go down this particular rabbit hole — if you are going to compare the cost of Apple products you have to remove any tax be it front loaded like VAT or after the fact as is the case here in the US.
"They can NOT not add it to the total cost." applies to US sales taxes (where applicable) so that is a non counter argument.
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