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I actually think we have seen the last Mini in its familiar form. Apple has been taking no a lot of flack that rightfully should be directed at their primary supplier, Intel. Intel has not delivered a significant processor improvement in years and what they have delivered has been consistently late and underwhelming.

Ok, so, I've gotta ask: is the Skull Canyon NUC a mirage or something? With its quad-core i7 and Iris Pro 580 graphics, dual M2 slots and room for 32 GB of RAM, it totally blows every Mini ever designed right out of the water, and does so in a form-factor that is roughly the same volume.

I don't care if Intel isn't supplying parts as quickly as before; Apple isn't even bothering to use the parts Intel does provide. So don't blame the lack of Mini upgrades on Intel.
 
Its no Mirage,....... my husband grabbed one off a newegg.ca sale and slammed in 32 GB and a 960 pro M2 card ( he cheaped out and got the 1T ;) for our new HTPC / micro server combo unit and the bloody thing is faster on the CPU than my 2015 iMac and im seriously debating once again trying to steal it to replace that iMac using a spare pro monitor.

specific model NUC6i7KYK
 
I don't care if Intel isn't supplying parts as quickly as before; Apple isn't even bothering to use the parts Intel does provide. So don't blame the lack of Mini upgrades on Intel.
So much this. There is no good reason the Mini could not have current or previous generation chips, including a quad core option.

Apple is entirely responsible for the state of the Mini, and the consequences for their business, nobody else.
 
I thought so. My other problem is typing on a phone with rhumatoid arthritis, twisted fingers. Still a complete statement not stopping at half the message, then again you probably laugh at your lugies.
[doublepost=1487901989][/doublepost]

I don't expect a decent upgrade if at all, but for those that stick with apple I hope for something.

No, the days of decent updates for the Mini most likely ended with the 2012 quad, but I agree I hope those who do hang in get something good.
 
Is this a good time to point out that the (existing) Mac Pro and Mac Mini are referenced in the small print of the LG Ultrafine 5k displays? The small print on the Apple tech note says under 2 relevant places:

*Apple recommends that you use the LG UltraFine 5K Display as a second monitor with Mac Pro, as the display might not turn on until you boot into macOS. As a result, pre-boot features such as Boot Picker and macOS Recovery might not be available on the display.

*Apple recommends that you use the LG UltraFine 5K Display as a second monitor with Mac mini, as the display might not turn on until you boot into macOS. As a result, pre-boot features such as Boot Picker and macOS Recovery might not be available on the display.

Don't get your hopes up in the case of the 2014 Mini as the 5k can only be used at an intermediate 3200x1800x60Hz resolution (according to the tech note) by the way.

Ironically, a similar tech note for the 4k model doesn't show any of this small print and even says that any Thunderbolt 2 equipped models are actually incompatible with it. This will be because it utilises a USB-C connection standard rather than Thunderbolt 3.

And for marketing reasons, along with the recent demise of the Thunderbolt display, I'd say that Apple may well want a (built in) retina screen to be the primary display of any Mac in the future which would eliminate any problems going forward.

We could see iPads or an iMac 21.5" replace the Mini going forward. It's basically going to help differentiate Macs from other PCs going forward once the whole range goes fully Retina which I'd expect to be the case when the new iMac form factor comes in.

This may not be a bad thing in the case of the iMac because I'm expecting a redesign to add discrete GPU across the range (including 21.5") and positioned away from the (expensive) screen to reduce heat related issues impacting on the monitor. This may enable Apple to make the screen much thinner (of course) and possibly able to be articulated again like the Sunflower G4.

Interesting also to note that the 4k model can completely power Macbook Pro 13" or the 12" Macbook which has a USB-C (non Thunderbolt 3) port.

If we were being more positive about a 2017 Mini rather than predicting a sad demise we could predict a smaller box with external power brick which could be bypassed by connecting directly to a 4k LG monitor which would deliver the power required. This obviously opens the door to a lower spec model perhaps inviting a move down to the 15w Intel CPUs or maybe even the 4.5w Macbook CPU if Apple were going to go the whole hog. Note that the Dell 27" Ultrathin would provide only 45w power which would only power a 4.5w Macbook-based (fanless?) flash only Mini design...

Curiously, and this bit probably belongs in the Macbook Pro forum, the 5k tech note also adds:

*The 15-inch MacBook Pro supports two LG UltraFine 5K Displays at full resolution. For this to work, you need to plug one display into a Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) port on the left side of your MacBook Pro, and the other display into a Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) port on the right side.

The iFixit tear-downs mention 4 controllers (one for each port) so it seems strange that they would start to dictate which ports you use to connect two additional 5k screens to.
 
Is this a good time to point out that the (existing) Mac Pro and Mac Mini are referenced in the small print of the LG Ultrafine 5k displays? The small print on the Apple tech note says under 2 relevant places:

*Apple recommends that you use the LG UltraFine 5K Display as a second monitor with Mac Pro, as the display might not turn on until you boot into macOS. As a result, pre-boot features such as Boot Picker and macOS Recovery might not be available on the display.

*Apple recommends that you use the LG UltraFine 5K Display as a second monitor with Mac mini, as the display might not turn on until you boot into macOS. As a result, pre-boot features such as Boot Picker and macOS Recovery might not be available on the display.

Don't get your hopes up in the case of the 2014 Mini as the 5k can only be used at an intermediate 3200x1800x60Hz resolution (according to the tech note) by the way.

Ironically, a similar tech note for the 4k model doesn't show any of this small print and even says that any Thunderbolt 2 equipped models are actually incompatible with it. This will be because it utilises a USB-C connection standard rather than Thunderbolt 3.

And for marketing reasons, along with the recent demise of the Thunderbolt display, I'd say that Apple may well want a (built in) retina screen to be the primary display of any Mac in the future which would eliminate any problems going forward.

We could see iPads or an iMac 21.5" replace the Mini going forward. It's basically going to help differentiate Macs from other PCs going forward once the whole range goes fully Retina which I'd expect to be the case when the new iMac form factor comes in.

This may not be a bad thing in the case of the iMac because I'm expecting a redesign to add discrete GPU across the range (including 21.5") and positioned away from the (expensive) screen to reduce heat related issues impacting on the monitor. This may enable Apple to make the screen much thinner (of course) and possibly able to be articulated again like the Sunflower G4.

Interesting also to note that the 4k model can completely power Macbook Pro 13" or the 12" Macbook which has a USB-C (non Thunderbolt 3) port.

If we were being more positive about a 2017 Mini rather than predicting a sad demise we could predict a smaller box with external power brick which could be bypassed by connecting directly to a 4k LG monitor which would deliver the power required. This obviously opens the door to a lower spec model perhaps inviting a move down to the 15w Intel CPUs or maybe even the 4.5w Macbook CPU if Apple were going to go the whole hog. Note that the Dell 27" Ultrathin would provide only 45w power which would only power a 4.5w Macbook-based (fanless?) flash only Mini design...

Curiously, and this bit probably belongs in the Macbook Pro forum, the 5k tech note also adds:

*The 15-inch MacBook Pro supports two LG UltraFine 5K Displays at full resolution. For this to work, you need to plug one display into a Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) port on the left side of your MacBook Pro, and the other display into a Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) port on the right side.

The iFixit tear-downs mention 4 controllers (one for each port) so it seems strange that they would start to dictate which ports you use to connect two additional 5k screens to.

Interesting ideas, particularly for a new mini. I could see Apple going to 15 watt chips. That would make "the new mac mini is almost certainly coming" crowd happy (not). My mini is hooked up to a 27" Asus 1440p monitor, and I can't see the pixels unless I put my nose right up to it, so it's retina as far as I'm concerned but I have lousy vision.

Also, no matter how closely I look at my 2012 mini, even with a magnifying glass, I just can't see any pixels, so I think it is a Retina Mac Mini! ;)
 
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It's a shame that the Mac Mini and the Mac pro have been ignored. I like the headless Macs. I have always loved the versatility tower machines have provided and the versatility a mini provided. Both of these are utterly being ignored.

I'm getting a Mac Pro for work and it sucks that the machine is 2013 parts. I know it is good but my gaming machine I built that is a year old now out guns it. It also has a lot of quirks in the Windows software that bug the bejesus out of me.

I have an old Core 2 Quad system that I have been considering rebuilding to dip my foot into the Hackintosh scene to see how reliable it could be. I'd have to buy a new motherboard, hard drive and case for the system but there is no reason for testing purposes I would have to spend too much. I can't believe it has come to dealing with hacking together my own system to get the product I want.

If Apple would stop trying to tell us what we want and listen they would have a record breaking year.
 
Well if a mini or pro comes out this year or next, we'll have all learned our lesson. The next one after that one is going to be five years away... So buy accordingly with that fact in mind (aka over spec what you think you need). Max the sucker out cuz everything will be soldered in. Prepare for the next $1600 Mac Mini...
 
Considering advancement in cpu (low power output - think MacBook 2016 no fan) along with PCI SSD and let's just lessen the interface ... is there ANY reason the Mac Mini cannot be shrunk down to an aluminum AppleTV clone?

Intel Core M - base
Intel Core i3 0 Mid Tier
Intel Core i5 - Top Tier (6th or 7th gen is quite powerful
Intel Iris 550/620/650 (??) integrated GPU

1 external LCD/TV with 4K support
1 ThunderBolt connection
2 USB ports
(maybe SD Card slot; not likely but maybe even MicroSD)?
Power cable - adapter internal
Bluetooth 4.2 or 5
802.11AC

1 Thunderbolt + HDMI Adapter for external screen
- you dun know already how Apple operates here with dongles (UK talk for adapter)
1 Thunderbolt > 3 port USB3.1 Rev1 Port (5Gb/sec each) for more ports if you need them.
2 USB3 ports for your BYOKM while Thunderbolt to HDMI = "D" part of the BYOKMD.

So apple can you make THIS? (attached)

Guess Apple is so rich they don't need a dollar for every time someone asks Apple "why can't you make a slimmed down desktop for everybody"
 

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It wouldn't even have to be a mini size. I would love to see a G4 cube like design return. I like the graphite color and the clear acrylic.

Maybe have a graphite aluminum on the inside encased by clear acrylic to give it a high gloss outer shine. OMG that would look super awesome. Then give it the fastest Core i7 Extreme processor, One PCIe x16 slot for a actual desktop graphics card preferably the best one available. Eight slots of DDR4 in quad channel. One PCIe SSD and four SATA3 2.5" drive bays for additional drives. If Apple really wants to be awesome they could implement SLI or Crossfire and have two graphics cards in the machine and really come out swinging.

Spec wise it would be a beast but I don't see it killing the iMac. The iMac is a very elegant machine to take on the road for shows and work. The Mac Pro should IMO be a tower put in a studio that doesn't move. The machine in question here would fill up the notch of gaming machine/high end non-pro machine since no ECC or professional graphics cards. Apple focuses on games on iOS. It's about time they step it up and focus on it with macOS especially if they want to merge the lines in terms of software.

A micro tower portable computer with more expandability then we have seen in years but still small and a fashion statement. I'd pay $4000 for it in a heartbeat. If they could get target display working on the 5K iMacs I'd buy a low end one just to use it as a monitor if they could get a 27" 5K at the $1000 price point.
 
It's a shame that the Mac Mini and the Mac pro have been ignored. I like the headless Macs. I have always loved the versatility tower machines have provided and the versatility a mini provided. Both of these are utterly being ignored.

I'm getting a Mac Pro for work and it sucks that the machine is 2013 parts. I know it is good but my gaming machine I built that is a year old now out guns it. It also has a lot of quirks in the Windows software that bug the bejesus out of me.

Looks like the Mac Pro is about to be consigned to history. That 2013 will need to last a long time.

https://www.macobserver.com/columns...reasons-for-apple-to-discontinue-the-mac-pro/
 
Looks like the Mac Pro is about to be consigned to history. That 2013 will need to last a long time.

https://www.macobserver.com/columns...reasons-for-apple-to-discontinue-the-mac-pro/
Because of an editorial?

If this is the case Apple is in a very bad spot. The iPads are not the future of computers. I can't do my work on a iPad. The only people able to do their work on a iPad barely needed a computer to begin with.

Apple has lost the plot and it seems I will be going back to Windows and resume building my machines for myself and using whatever junk work gives me since Apple isn't interested in me anymore.
 
Because of an editorial?

If this is the case Apple is in a very bad spot. The iPads are not the future of computers. I can't do my work on a iPad. The only people able to do their work on a iPad barely needed a computer to begin with.

Apple has lost the plot and it seems I will be going back to Windows and resume building my machines for myself and using whatever junk work gives me since Apple isn't interested in me anymore.

For all we know the entire Apple design team, programmers (using Swift Playgrounds to code Apple iOS and premier apps that launch on shipping products), as well as their engineers using Windows computers and terminals connected to Linux servers is most likely.
 
It wouldn't even have to be a mini size. I would love to see a G4 cube like design return. I like the graphite color and the clear acrylic.

Maybe have a graphite aluminum on the inside encased by clear acrylic to give it a high gloss outer shine. OMG that would look super awesome. Then give it the fastest Core i7 Extreme processor, One PCIe x16 slot for a actual desktop graphics card preferably the best one available. Eight slots of DDR4 in quad channel. One PCIe SSD and four SATA3 2.5" drive bays for additional drives. If Apple really wants to be awesome they could implement SLI or Crossfire and have two graphics cards in the machine and really come out swinging.

Spec wise it would be a beast but I don't see it killing the iMac. The iMac is a very elegant machine to take on the road for shows and work. The Mac Pro should IMO be a tower put in a studio that doesn't move. The machine in question here would fill up the notch of gaming machine/high end non-pro machine since no ECC or professional graphics cards. Apple focuses on games on iOS. It's about time they step it up and focus on it with macOS especially if they want to merge the lines in terms of software.

A micro tower portable computer with more expandability then we have seen in years but still small and a fashion statement. I'd pay $4000 for it in a heartbeat. If they could get target display working on the 5K iMacs I'd buy a low end one just to use it as a monitor if they could get a 27" 5K at the $1000 price point.

The Cube already had well documented design failures including lacking a fan which made the machine quiet but prematurely killed many machines from heat. The legs were also prone to cracking and failure.

I think the new Mini form factor for 'pro' users already exists - it's the Mac Pro. It's already been detrimentally called the Mac Mini Pro.

Apple have decided that the high end pro users who bought the old Mac Pro didn't deliver enough profit for them so they tried to design something should have been interesting for folks with less high end use cases but they increased the low end selling price rather than dropping it.

Part of the problem could be having it assembled in the USA. Who knows how much that is adding to the cost price but if Apple are investigating shifting production back to China to reduce the cost and increase the build quality that would be a positive step.

They could well put Ryzen plus a single Vega GPU into the Mac Pro case later this year (or current Polaris RX 480 GPU) and then drop the price but that would be a marketing disaster for Intel unless they offered a serious incentive to Apple to stay Intel exclusive.

Phil Schiller declared all those years ago now that the 2013 Pro would be the form factor going forward for 10 years but something has gone seriously wrong for it to go over 3 years with no update (not even a speed bump).

During that time we've had:

1. Anand of Anandtech point out some issues with the architecture of the machine.
2. People noting the cheap thermal paste used meaning core temps higher.
3. There's a repair programme for some GPUs in some Mac Pro models.
4. The same GPUs were outdated on release, macOS doesn't fully use twin GPUs anyway leaving one idle much of the time on many applications.
5. It was aimed at FCPX users - a $300 product - many of these folks already left the platform due to the software itself and those who are left won't invest in a product that has not been updated in 3 years, sells for the same price (more if you are in Europe thanks to exchange rates) and has an unknown future.

It can't be a profitable line in the state that it is, but given what Phil Schiller said at the unveiling it will be a PR fail if the Mac Pro cylinder went away entirely. He wants to be able to say that they took the insights they made from the Mac Pro and applied it to, for example, an 8k iMac Pro which puts the high end hardware into a cylinder 'leg' while leaving an extremely thin 30" panel which is adjustable and less prone to damage due to heat from a CPU/GPU that's too close to the panel.

The annual NAB video show is coming up and we hear that there was a secret Apple briefing at last year's event. I assumed that would mean a new Mac Pro in October - we all know that never happened - so I reckon it was probably the Touch Bar that was being referred to.

Given that video professionals seem to be getting the drop on future stuff (under an NDA) I don't think it's too much of a stretch for FCPX professionals to be briefed on a future version of that software being fully 8k compatible within a year, or compatible with the latest Nvidia cards, for example. They wouldn't be told anything specific but it might be enough to stem what could be a massive exodus this year.

Since the last NAB show, we've had Nvidia release the GTX 1080 and now we have AMD on the scene with an 8-core Ryzen at half the cost of the equivalent Intel CPU.

Just imagine what is going through the mind of a video editor now who needs new kit. Go with Premiere Pro, build a 8 core 16 thread Ryzen PC this summer with one or more GTX 1080 GPUs and watch it STOMP all over the Mac Pro at a fraction of the cost.

On a personal note, I get that Apple want to maximise profit on their machines but Pro users with failed machines can't afford the time out getting the thing swapped or repaired. If they allow you to upgrade RAM yourself they should at least leave you with a standard M.2 slot for your own SSD which could then be removed and put into a replacement machine to reduce downtime. They shouldn't be selling models with poverty spec 256Gb SSD anyway just to make people fork out for a 512Gb or 1Tb SSD.
 
The Cube already had well documented design failures including lacking a fan which made the machine quiet but prematurely killed many machines from heat. The legs were also prone to cracking and failure.

I think the new Mini form factor for 'pro' users already exists - it's the Mac Pro. It's already been detrimentally called the Mac Mini Pro.

Apple have decided that the high end pro users who bought the old Mac Pro didn't deliver enough profit for them so they tried to design something should have been interesting for folks with less high end use cases but they increased the low end selling price rather than dropping it.

Part of the problem could be having it assembled in the USA. Who knows how much that is adding to the cost price but if Apple are investigating shifting production back to China to reduce the cost and increase the build quality that would be a positive step.

They could well put Ryzen plus a single Vega GPU into the Mac Pro case later this year (or current Polaris RX 480 GPU) and then drop the price but that would be a marketing disaster for Intel unless they offered a serious incentive to Apple to stay Intel exclusive.

Phil Schiller declared all those years ago now that the 2013 Pro would be the form factor going forward for 10 years but something has gone seriously wrong for it to go over 3 years with no update (not even a speed bump).

During that time we've had:

1. Anand of Anandtech point out some issues with the architecture of the machine.
2. People noting the cheap thermal paste used meaning core temps higher.
3. There's a repair programme for some GPUs in some Mac Pro models.
4. The same GPUs were outdated on release, macOS doesn't fully use twin GPUs anyway leaving one idle much of the time on many applications.
5. It was aimed at FCPX users - a $300 product - many of these folks already left the platform due to the software itself and those who are left won't invest in a product that has not been updated in 3 years, sells for the same price (more if you are in Europe thanks to exchange rates) and has an unknown future.

It can't be a profitable line in the state that it is, but given what Phil Schiller said at the unveiling it will be a PR fail if the Mac Pro cylinder went away entirely. He wants to be able to say that they took the insights they made from the Mac Pro and applied it to, for example, an 8k iMac Pro which puts the high end hardware into a cylinder 'leg' while leaving an extremely thin 30" panel which is adjustable and less prone to damage due to heat from a CPU/GPU that's too close to the panel.

The annual NAB video show is coming up and we hear that there was a secret Apple briefing at last year's event. I assumed that would mean a new Mac Pro in October - we all know that never happened - so I reckon it was probably the Touch Bar that was being referred to.

Given that video professionals seem to be getting the drop on future stuff (under an NDA) I don't think it's too much of a stretch for FCPX professionals to be briefed on a future version of that software being fully 8k compatible within a year, or compatible with the latest Nvidia cards, for example. They wouldn't be told anything specific but it might be enough to stem what could be a massive exodus this year.

Since the last NAB show, we've had Nvidia release the GTX 1080 and now we have AMD on the scene with an 8-core Ryzen at half the cost of the equivalent Intel CPU.

Just imagine what is going through the mind of a video editor now who needs new kit. Go with Premiere Pro, build a 8 core 16 thread Ryzen PC this summer with one or more GTX 1080 GPUs and watch it STOMP all over the Mac Pro at a fraction of the cost.

On a personal note, I get that Apple want to maximise profit on their machines but Pro users with failed machines can't afford the time out getting the thing swapped or repaired. If they allow you to upgrade RAM yourself they should at least leave you with a standard M.2 slot for your own SSD which could then be removed and put into a replacement machine to reduce downtime. They shouldn't be selling models with poverty spec 256Gb SSD anyway just to make people fork out for a 512Gb or 1Tb SSD.

I just mean the mini tower cube form factor and external design. I think it is obvious, so I'm a little annoyed you took the chance to snipe, no kidding a Core i7 Extreme and a high end desktop graphics card requires cooling. :rolleyes:

I don't need you to apologize and explain away things for Apple to me. I'm simply saying if Apple wants to make a stack of cash then do it.

The Pro market brings plenty of money if Apple is willing to dive in. However if you read my post you would know the requested machine is not a Pro market machine but instead a gaming machine. Gaming machines are highly competitive but potentially highly lucrative. Apple if they took it seriously could in my opinion have their next big thing, at least for the Mac. It would also give them the opportunity to design a old school looking G4 keyboard but with actual mechanical keys and wireless with backlighting.

I'm more of a Intel person and the Core i7 Extreme processors are a known quantity. AMD's processors sound promising, however it's premature to be building designs around them considering they are released in March and they have not been in the hands of users for testing yet. There is also the added expense of testing macOS for the new processor to make sure it is compatible.

Baring in mind the comparisons of the processors have been at stock speeds and the Core i7 Extreme processors overclock like mad. I dare say that they come out of the box underclocked as to build the excitement in overclocking them so high. For instance on a basic Corsair H100i GTX all in one water cooling loop my 5930K on a MSI X99A SLI Plus board (one whose first priority is stability) can overclock 1.2GHz stable. It is utterly insane. Now I know the AMD processors are unlocked but it remains to be seen what their ceiling is and if they can not go toe to toe with the overclocked Extreme's then while good for budget gaming and raising the bar they are not the real deal and would explain why they are priced so far below the cream of the crop Intel chip.
 
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I just mean the mini tower cube form factor and external design. I think it is obvious, so I'm a little annoyed you took the chance to snipe, no kidding a Core i7 Extreme and a high end desktop graphics card requires cooling. :rolleyes:

I don't need you to apologize and explain away things for Apple to me. I'm simply saying if Apple wants to make a stack of cash then do it.

The Pro market brings plenty of money if Apple is willing to dive in. However if you read my post you would know the requested machine is not a Pro market machine but instead a gaming machine. Gaming machines are highly competitive but potentially highly lucrative. Apple if they took it seriously could in my opinion have their next big thing, at least for the Mac. It would also give them the opportunity to design a old school looking G4 keyboard but actual mechanical keys and wireless with backlighting.

I'm more of a Intel person and the Core i7 Extreme processors are a known quantity. AMD's processors sound promising, however it's premature to be building designs around them considering they are released in March and they have not been in the hands of users for testing yet. There is also the added expense of testing macOS for the new processor to make sure it is compatible.

I didn't think I was sniping. :)

The following could be seen as sniping:

I will say that your Mini tower wish list is something a lot of Mac users would pin together in the Mac forums but they usually don't take into account the amount of support required on the software side of things and sometimes the lists just end up as very much wishful thinking.

Aside from the usual driver issues with allowing 'any' graphics cards to be added there's just not enough profit in it for Apple because the expandability means you'll keep your tower for a decade - adding parts bought from other sources - and not pay Apple for another machine in 2-3 years.

Apple have never used Core Extreme processors - the list price on some of them alone is over $1k with some approaching $2k. The i7-6950X Extreme Edition costs $1723-$1743 for 10 cores/20 thread at 3GHz for example. That's 5 times the price of a regular standard i7-7700K which goes into the top end iMac and it won't be as good as the 7700K for single threaded work loads. This might change with the launch of Ryzen which does 8 cores/16 threads for around $500 but Apple appear to be committed to using Xeons in that price bracket.

I would love to have the ability to add drives internally, external storage is just too costly and 2.5" connections would allow SATA 3 SSD to be used for those of us with such a budget but Apple won't allow. :(

I wouldn't have minded hanging some USB3 enclosures with 2.5" hard drives off a main unit for cheap external storage but we'd really need individual USB-3 controllers per port to get maximum speed out - something which doesn't even happen in the current Mac Pro.

One of Apple's central tenets is silent computing - this probably comes all the way from Steve Jobs and may have been responsible for the genesis of the Cube. I like that idea very much having become very used to quiet computing with various Apple machines and I think we can trust Apple to come up with a quiet computer where possible.

To be fair, a lot of PC manufacturers have come up with small form factor products which might suit folks who like the Mini form factor. I saw this from Zotac the other day. On spec alone it looks nice and here's an Anandtech review. They sell lower spec variants but I would say that Apple would have a lot more interest from top end Mini customers if they were to sell a Mac Pro at $2000 or less.

I agree with your remarks over the Ryzen and I think it's unlikely that Apple would ever go with AMD for CPU but they'll certainly pressurise Intel for discounts to combat the threat of AMD. If Apple were ever interested in Ryzen they would have had samples for testing under NDA for months by now. They might even have been the reason why the desktops never got updated in October - Ryzen slipped a bit during 2016... ;)

I'm not sure that Apple ever want to get involved in games despite the fact that it's a highly lucrative market but hard core gamers guys trawl places like Amazon, Newegg etc to get the components they want to fit into the cases they want as soon as they are available. They are the guys who buy Founders Edition GPUs knowing full well they are overpriced just so they have that those extra few fps now. Some of these folks might recommend an Apple gaming focused device but they could just as quickly recommend something else six weeks later.

Apple could certainly spec up a machine with the specs to allow gaming (for Boot Camp folks) but despite Metal being around as a replacement for OpenGL I don't think Apple's heart is in the gaming community. The high end guys there want refreshes every 6-12 months and the ability to add their own parts such as GPUs and we know Apple don't do that.

The other way of doing a games machine is to keep the spec steady for a number of years while reducing the price accordingly over time. This is the console way of doing things but Apple won't ever reduce the price on hardware - just look at the Mac Pro for a very harmful example - because it's a prestige thing. They might allow 3rd party retailers to do offers from time to time though. The current PS4 is based on an AMD APU and if Apple go down this route they could come up with something very attractive but I also think that they are moving towards adding retina screens to all their products to set them apart from other manufacturers. This could eventually spell the end of the headless desktops in the most extreme of cases.

I would have thought that an AppleTV 5 that does 4k (power it with an A9X) would be the answer to people who wanted to play games on a big screen. Simply add more SSD for and continue taking money from the App Store for games.
 
I didn't think I was sniping. :)

The following could be seen as sniping:

I will say that your Mini tower wish list is something a lot of Mac users would pin together in the Mac forums but they usually don't take into account the amount of support required on the software side of things and sometimes the lists just end up as very much wishful thinking.

Aside from the usual driver issues with allowing 'any' graphics cards to be added there's just not enough profit in it for Apple because the expandability means you'll keep your tower for a decade - adding parts bought from other sources - and not pay Apple for another machine in 2-3 years.

Apple have never used Core Extreme processors - the list price on some of them alone is over $1k with some approaching $2k. The i7-6950X Extreme Edition costs $1723-$1743 for 10 cores/20 thread at 3GHz for example. That's 5 times the price of a regular standard i7-7700K which goes into the top end iMac and it won't be as good as the 7700K for single threaded work loads. This might change with the launch of Ryzen which does 8 cores/16 threads for around $500 but Apple appear to be committed to using Xeons in that price bracket.

I would love to have the ability to add drives internally, external storage is just too costly and 2.5" connections would allow SATA 3 SSD to be used for those of us with such a budget but Apple won't allow. :(

I wouldn't have minded hanging some USB3 enclosures with 2.5" hard drives off a main unit for cheap external storage but we'd really need individual USB-3 controllers per port to get maximum speed out - something which doesn't even happen in the current Mac Pro.

One of Apple's central tenets is silent computing - this probably comes all the way from Steve Jobs and may have been responsible for the genesis of the Cube. I like that idea very much having become very used to quiet computing with various Apple machines and I think we can trust Apple to come up with a quiet computer where possible.

To be fair, a lot of PC manufacturers have come up with small form factor products which might suit folks who like the Mini form factor. I saw this from Zotac the other day. On spec alone it looks nice and here's an Anandtech review. They sell lower spec variants but I would say that Apple would have a lot more interest from top end Mini customers if they were to sell a Mac Pro at $2000 or less.

I agree with your remarks over the Ryzen and I think it's unlikely that Apple would ever go with AMD for CPU but they'll certainly pressurise Intel for discounts to combat the threat of AMD. If Apple were ever interested in Ryzen they would have had samples for testing under NDA for months by now. They might even have been the reason why the desktops never got updated in October - Ryzen slipped a bit during 2016... ;)

I'm not sure that Apple ever want to get involved in games despite the fact that it's a highly lucrative market but hard core gamers guys trawl places like Amazon, Newegg etc to get the components they want to fit into the cases they want as soon as they are available. They are the guys who buy Founders Edition GPUs knowing full well they are overpriced just so they have that those extra few fps now. Some of these folks might recommend an Apple gaming focused device but they could just as quickly recommend something else six weeks later.

Apple could certainly spec up a machine with the specs to allow gaming (for Boot Camp folks) but despite Metal being around as a replacement for OpenGL I don't think Apple's heart is in the gaming community. The high end guys there want refreshes every 6-12 months and the ability to add their own parts such as GPUs and we know Apple don't do that.

The other way of doing a games machine is to keep the spec steady for a number of years while reducing the price accordingly over time. This is the console way of doing things but Apple won't ever reduce the price on hardware - just look at the Mac Pro for a very harmful example - because it's a prestige thing. They might allow 3rd party retailers to do offers from time to time though. The current PS4 is based on an AMD APU and if Apple go down this route they could come up with something very attractive but I also think that they are moving towards adding retina screens to all their products to set them apart from other manufacturers. This could eventually spell the end of the headless desktops in the most extreme of cases.

I would have thought that an AppleTV 5 that does 4k (power it with an A9X) would be the answer to people who wanted to play games on a big screen. Simply add more SSD for and continue taking money from the App Store for games.

I apologize. I honestly didn't get past your initial post about the lack of cooling on the G4 cube and because of stress in real life over reacted. I'm sorry. :)

I know I am asking for the moon. The reason I would like to see the extreme processors be used even with no overclocking is because of the extra PCIe lanes. I think the six core would be the sweet spot for gaming.

There is plenty of profit in it for gaming. Trust me nothing ages faster then a gaming machine. The highest resolutions with the highest graphics settings in the latest games drives sales. Apple could provide upgrade kits for graphics cards using their official bios. Apple could stop being greedy and caring if the graphics card is upgraded just like they didn't fight it for generations in the PowerMac G3, G4, G5, Classic Mac Pro which in my opinion was the renascence period of Apple.

Your right about the silence aspect but with a sweet water cooling design like they did for the G5 I bet you they could keep it quite.

A few years ago we installed a bunch of Dell PCs about the size of two DVD cases stacked together. They where cool, but ultimately still running Windows. Granted Windows has improved a lot but it isn't quite there yet in getting the interfaces of everything unified. Even within Windows 10 itself the settings app and the control panel designs clash and screams legacy code.

I agree with the spirit of giving Intel a crack of the whip. Lower prices and more gains on the CPUs are always welcome. I hope Apple shares some of the savings with us the customer or uses the savings to pack in more goodies. You do have a good point about the test chips and the timings. Never say never and they are in bed with AMD in the graphics department. As long as it runs smoothly I guess there really isn't an issue switching. :)

I'm guilty of that. I have two GTX 1080 Founders editions, a 5930K. I don't care if they cost more. I'm sure the others ones might also be a bit faster but I see it as buying the most stable design available since the experts who made the platform built it. If Apple would support the gaming scene and show an effort I'd buy directly from them for the gaming machine instead of rolling my own. For one thing they make very nice looking machines and two the service and warranty are fantastic.
 
For all we know the entire Apple design team, programmers (using Swift Playgrounds to code Apple iOS and premier apps that launch on shipping products), as well as their engineers using Windows computers and terminals connected to Linux servers is most likely.
Wouldn't be the 1st time. Apple outfitted a lot of their consulting engineers with Windows machines back in the late 90s, early 2000s.
 
This. I started building windows desktops in the 80's and have never bought one prebuilt. Looks like its time to go back.

I've built several gaming machines over the course of the years. From here on out when I build them I'll stick to the TonyMac part list and dual boot Windows for gaming and macOS for daily use and for personal work I'll see if I can run the Windows install through the VM like bootcamp on an actual Mac. If I achieve that then I'll try to fit my new computer into the best condition of a G4 Graphite case I can find.
 
Tim's latest speech on the front page says the usual zero about anything. This secrecy is OK with phones, but with computers, not so much. WTF is it so hard to say, "We will have a mac mini and mac pro refresh in (name month here)"?
 
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