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NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,088
22,154
So the chip only exists for blocking repairs?

Someone better tell the team that worked on its SSD controller and encryption function then, they’re going to be pissed all their engineering work was for nothing.
 

Porkchop Sandwich

macrumors regular
Feb 3, 2017
243
145
That's valid NT1440 however, infringing upon a persons right to repair something themselves, or how they see fit, is an over-reach. Incorporating into the design an impossibility to make a repair, or modification, without having to pay Apple more money. That's unethical and, an over-reach.
[doublepost=1538748362][/doublepost]I for one remove the bottom cover on my laptops about once per yr to gently blow out the innards due to the extreme amount of pollen we experience in my area. Whenever I go into an Apple store for service, I have to endure the 'shameful 'raised eye-brows from the Apple associate for having the audacity to remove the bottom cover myself thus penetrating the item that belongs to ME. It gets old.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,088
22,154
That's valid NT1440 however, infringing upon a persons right to repair something themselves, or how they see fit, is an over-reach. Incorporating into the design an impossibility to make a repair, or modification, without having to pay Apple more money. That's unethical and, an over-reach.
And just like every change Apple makes on the security front, the tools for third parties to work on the devices (if Apple certified) will be available in the not to distant future.

3rd party repair functions always take a backseat from Apple, but they do release the tools eventually.
 
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c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,890
3,268
And yes, they care about recycling and ecological responsibility

If Apple really cared about recycling, they wouldn't use all that glue in iMacs and their MBP lineup.
If just one key fails on your 5000$ MBP, entire top shell needs to be replaced. That means entire keyboard, trackpad, top shell and battery.

How is that ecologically responsible?
 

Anarchy99

macrumors 65816
Dec 13, 2003
1,041
1,034
CA
... and failing your warranty.

your ignorance is showing again
1st not every country in the world voids your warranty when you or a 3rd party repair place repairs/upgrades your device.

Heck even in the USA it been legal for decades (The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act of 1975)

but even if your lie was true, do you throw out everything you use after its 30 day, 90 day or 1 year warranty?

if not then that argument you just made was moot.




Wha you say is irrelevant to virtually every Apple user save for the very few who do have the skill and also want to invest their time.

NO IT IS NOT, seriously are you trolling?

just cause you or even the majority of apple users dont do it, they will utilize someone who does.

if we loose the right to repair it affects talented people and idiots alike.



Personally, even if I had the skill, I would always go to a service provider, simply because its cheaper and less bother for me.


B.S
1st it's not a universal truth the service provider is cheaper and/or less bother.
in-fact some services apple doesn't even offer.

if you had the skill you would do what is most advantageous to you depending on your timeframe and finances.

here are 2 hypothetical Scenarios:

scenario one:

Genius Bar says that the $800 logicboard replacement.

you, since you are skilled.
open it up and see it's a five cent capacitor that's dead, whether it's worthwhile to you is whether you can live without the computer long enough to get a new five cent capacitor.
considering you as you have stated would have the skills required.

personally in that scenario if it was a personal machine I would bother to do the soldering,but the reason my shop sends those things out to the Rossman group if the client is willing to pay or tell them we cant help them for the price they are willing to pay, is because my hourly rate to open it up diagnose and then close it back up is worth more than what a lot of people in my neighborhood want to pay.

Of course in the scenario if right to repair laws existed. I too could offer the logic board, I would be buying it from Apple at whatever wholesale rates they would determine, and I could hypothetically take a smaller margin for myself thus coming in cheaper for the client than an official Apple Store.


scenario 2: you have a new MacBook Pro without a socketed SSD, the logic board breaks and Apple says they are unable to repair your laptop,
worse the computer is in such a state that their lifeboat connector data recovery tool cannot recover the data.

(not to mention even when the data is recoverable Apple rarely if ever does data recovery)

in this scenario your only option is third-party or yourself if you had the skills because Apple doesn't do actual data recovery.

Oh, right, Rossmann. The guy who makes money running a youtube channel where he can tell you selective "facts" about things.]

he makes observations based on what he sees while doing the repairs Apple won't do.

that's a fact.

if you're saying he points out more negatives then positives, as someone whos been a technician for decades let me tell you no customers bring you a working computer.

so you focus on the negatives as that's what you deal with.

even if you havent been a computer tech even a customer service employee can tell you the same type of stuff.


I'd take Louis' rants over apple's outright lies any day (when they say something unfixable when they say the lack of a headphone jack is courageous etc. )
don't get me wrong i love apple but they are notoriously dishonest.


When you look at all these repair gurus: they are not making money by actually repairing stuff. They are either showing it off on youtube and making money via monetisation (like Rossman), or they sell merchandise (iFixit).

while I don't doubt youtube and sponsorships supplement the youtube "celebrity" repair community
you only need to look at the fact that there are computer/electronics repair shops not on youtube to disprove your lie on this one.
 
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andre.olive

macrumors newbie
Jan 5, 2010
8
6
For all practical purposes, the repairability of Apple hardware is the same as it was 5 or 10 years ago. Unless you want your warranty voided, you go to an official Apple-certified repair center. When I buy a computer, the question whether I can repair it yourself isn't even on my list. It is covered by warranty and I have a good shop around the corner that will repair it for me within two days. So if unofficial repairs are not possible anymore because of tightened security, I don't care. The few Mac DYI enthiusiasts — I don't care about them either. I you like to tinker with hardware— Mac is not for you, and never was.

Facts: On 2006 and 2008 I bought two MBPs, 15" each. I upgraded the hard disk and ram memory on both, myself. A famous NVIDIA GPU design flaw stroke me on both of them, on different occasions, one on 2009 and the other one on 2010. Apple didn't bother I had upgraded the components myself and they just replaced both motherboards without a blink. Both MBPs worked flawlessly until last year.

Actually, the previous models, on its majority, were user serviceable. They even had official links regarding instructions on ram memory upgrade procedure by the user. If you google it, the links are still there.
 
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Porkchop Sandwich

macrumors regular
Feb 3, 2017
243
145
Facts: On 2006 and 2008 I bought two MBPs, 15" each. I upgraded the hard disk and ram memory on both, myself. A famous NVIDIA GPU design flaw stroke me on both of them, on different occasions, one on 2009 and the other one on 2010. Apple didn't bother I had upgraded the components myself and they just replcaed both motherboards without a blink. Both MBPs worked flawlessly until last year.

Actually, the previous models, on its majority, were user serviceable. They even had official links regarding instructions on ram memory upgrade procedure by the user. If you google it, the links are still there.
To be clear, the post that was quoted in post #32 is not my post.
 
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NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,088
22,154
If Apple really cared about recycling, they wouldn't use all that glue in iMacs and their MBP lineup.
If just one key fails on your 5000$ MBP, entire top shell needs to be replaced. That means entire keyboard, trackpad, top shell and battery.

How is that ecologically responsible?
What do you think happens to that part when Apple replaces it?
 

Queen6

macrumors G4
The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act prohibits warrantors from conditioning warranties on the consumer's use of a replacement product or repair service identified by brand or name and conditions cannot be placed on a part or service being termed unauthorized. Nor can they prevent you from opening your device, regardless of how many stickers they put on it saying warranty void if removed.

As for cars, you can take it anywhere you wish for the service and there is no requirement to use genuine OEM parts either. You can also do the work yourself if you wish. None of that will void the warranty unless the manufacturer can show that the work that was performed directly caused a failure.

In short, if you do your own oil changes and the rear differential in your car fails, the manufacturer can not void the warranty on your vehicle due to this and the manufacturer can not show any direct correlation between you changing the oil and the differential failing and must repair it under warranty.

Paid for content. As for vehicles, always done it myself or used independant specialists who I implicitly trusted, as at speed there is little room for error, once your past 300kph...

Q-6
 
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Merlin100

macrumors newbie
May 17, 2013
12
23
... is now officially acknowledged:

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...vent-independent-repair?utm_source=reddit.com

This took a lot of time to implement in advance, first in software then in hardware. Apple did it in iOS and their iPhone/iPad hardware first. Now all the little quirks and hints, the hard to pin down behaviors in iOS and macos hardware and software over the last couple of years I experienced and learned from others make perfectly sense and are explainable. More and more necessary hacks by us for things they broke intentionally by software, like most recently eGPU service for Tthunderbolt 1/2 macs. The declining hardware quality and quantity, while rising prices and tying additional service costs to bind you economically for a steady stream of income.

This is the damning indisputable evidence. Lock in to the software and hardware platform, maximizing profits by any means. They regard extreme high thresholds of profits more important than any user satisfaction or longevity of service. All their proclamations about those values, including recycling and ecological responsibility - mere words to calm us. But they don´t mean it at all.

They became complacent and feel entitled.

Therefore there can be no trust, no goodwill left by any means.

This is so sad.
[doublepost=1538758555][/doublepost]You neglect to mention the true purpose of the T2 Chip - Enhanced Security.

Everyone reading this story should take a look at this article to understand what it actually does: https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-t2-chip-brings-deeper-secuirty-to-macbook-pro/
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,088
22,154
Nah, not the sole reason, but I guess it was used to help deter and block people from repairing the machines and force them to use Apple
Given all the engineering that has gone into the T series I find it highly improbable that this was the GOAL of the chip rather than a short term symptom of its implementation.

Apple’s third party support tools are always slow walked, but they don’t explicitly cut out certified repair centers.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Given all the engineering that has gone into the T series I find it highly improbable that this was the GOAL of the chip rather than a short term symptom of its implementation.

Apple’s third party support tools are always slow walked, but they don’t explicitly cut out certified repair centers.
I think blocking anybody but themselves has been a goal for them. Just consider how difficult it is to order a part from apple to fix your own computer.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
your ignorance is showing again
1st not every country in the world voids your warranty when you or a 3rd party repair place repairs/upgrades your device.

Heck even in the USA it been legal for decades (The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act of 1975)

Yes, I was not aware that the Magnuson–Moss Act existed (thanks to @SDColorado for explaining). I read about it, and it seems it only affects cars. I am curious whether it only affects certain kinds of repairs (example was exchanging oil, which can be done without any special knowledge), or whether it also means that you can, say, rebuild the engine and then demand the manufacturer to continue service your car? The later would surprise me very much.

but even if your lie was true, do you throw out everything you use after its 30 day, 90 day or 1 year warranty?

1. How am I lying? Try modding your laptop and then going to a shop for a warranty case.

2. No, I don't throw stuff away. And I have 3 years warranty. And if it breaks outside warranty, I get it repaired obviously. Of course, since I don't like to own expensive stuf outside its warranty, I usually sell it before the warranty expires.

I am really not sure what you are trying to pull with your rhetorics...

NO IT IS NOT, seriously are you trolling?

just cause you or even the majority of apple users dont do it, they will utilize someone who does.

if we loose the right to repair it affects talented people and idiots alike.

Maybe you are the one who is trolling? Who is talking about losing the right to repair? The point is that people who do repairs for you should be properly trained and certified to repair the product. Enforcing post-repair validation which checks whether counterfeit or compromised parts have been used doesn't invalidate your option to repair.


Ah, so you have a computer repair shop. So you certainly also have all the tools you need to work with Apple machines and running the diagnostic that Appel will demand is no problem for you, right?

BTW, your example with the capacitor is flawed, since you will still be able to do it, even after the firmware validation. Or do you think that Apple's software diagnostics is so advanced that they can detect a replaced capacitor? Its very obvious that what the article talks about is firmware verification of new parts (such as trackpad etc.) to make sure that they have been not tampered with.

Of course in the scenario if right to repair laws existed. I too could offer the logic board, I would be buying it from Apple at whatever wholesale rates they would determine, and I could hypothetically take a smaller margin for myself thus coming in cheaper for the client than an official Apple Store.

Yes, and in that scenario Apple would be providing the firmware verification tool for free, so again, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? You are talking about one hypothetical situation on top of the other one. The verification doesn't prevent or hinder the repair, it just makes sure that the parts that have been used are SAFE.

scenario 2: you have a new MacBook Pro without a socketed SSD, the logic board breaks and Apple says they are unable to repair your laptop
worse the computer is in such a state that their lifeboat connector data recovery tool cannot recover the data.

Sorry if my comment here is not constructive, but my reaction would be to blame myself for being such an idiot and not bothering to do a backup.

if you're saying he points out more negatives then positives, as someone whos been a technician for decades let me tell you no customers bring you a working computer.

What I am saying is that he selectively picks points which he must know are not accurate. Like when he loudly proclaims that a MBP cannot use a USB HDD without WiFi interference without mentioning that this is a know issue with the WiFi/USB standards that has been affecting the entire intrustry. This kind of stuff.

you only need to look at the fact that there are computer/electronics repair shops not on youtube to disprove your lie on this one.

Sorry, didn't you write above "my hourly rate to open it up diagnose and then close it back up is worth more than what a lot of people in my neighborhood want to pay"? Thank you for so brilliantly proving my point. Having an expert open the board and spend I don't know how much time testing for blown capacitors (or whatever) is not economically viable in a developed country. You can maybe do it in Russia or India where there are enough tech-savvy but hungry people ready to work for literally scraps. And that is precisely the reason why Apple swaps the entire mainboard without bothering to diagnose — the old mainboards are then sent back, tested, refurbished and partially reused.
 
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Howard2k

macrumors 603
Mar 10, 2016
5,671
5,587
[doublepost=1538758555][/doublepost]You neglect to mention the true purpose of the T2 Chip - Enhanced Security.

Everyone reading this story should take a look at this article to understand what it actually does: https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-t2-chip-brings-deeper-secuirty-to-macbook-pro/


Oh come on, we were just about to get to a discussion on the legitimacy of the moon landings. Why did you have to come in with facts and logic?

(And seriously, interesting refresher, thanks for posting)
 
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c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,890
3,268
What do you think happens to that part when Apple replaces it?

I have my guesses, but honestly, don't have a clue.
But whatever happens, it's not ecologically good that you have to produce additional battery, keyboard, top shell and trackpad because of one lousy key that got stuck. I think we can all agree on that one. Even @leman skipped to answer my post about his ecological claims :D

I think blocking anybody but themselves has been a goal for them. Just consider how difficult it is to order a part from apple to fix your own computer.

Difficult? My laptop was in certified repair shop for almost 3 weeks because of few stuck keys. Why so long? Because Apple doesn't allow those shops to order parts in advance. And all that time I was without my MBP, because Apple requests that the broken part is sent to them before they send in the replacement.

So call me crazy, but I would think that it is impossible to get any Apple parts unless you are certified repair shop. And even then it's crazy that customers have to wait that long for a repair of just few broken keys.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
[doublepost=1538758555][/doublepost]You neglect to mention the true purpose of the T2 Chip - Enhanced Security

Not just security, also performance and efficiency. T2 takes over some tasks traditionally done by the CPU, only it can perform them using much less energy and faster. The SSD controller solution is Great.
 

green86

macrumors 6502a
Sep 27, 2007
535
270
North Carolina
They became complacent and feel entitled.

Therefore there can be no trust, no goodwill left by any means.

This is so sad.

Your feelings about this are extremely misguided.

Apple builds SECURE reliable devices that just WORK. Not necessarily for you to WORK ON.

There are computers that you can work on. I'd suggest buying those. I like everything the T1 and T2 promise... which is why I bought a MacBook Pro. Its not sad, and proactively locking things down is hardly being complacent.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
Even @leman skipped to answer my post about his ecological claims :D

I didn’t skip, I forgot :)

To be honest, I don’t know. I’m fairly certain that they don’t just make new keyboards and throw the old ones away, too expensive and also very dumb. I would guess that the old top cases are centrally collected, refurbished and used to make new replacement parts.
 

SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,360
4,324
Highlands Ranch, CO
Yes, I was not aware that the Magnuson–Moss Act existed (thanks to @SDColorado for explaining). I read about it, and it seems it only affects cars.


It definitely doesn’t only affect cars. Kingston Memory for example has a big section on the MMWA, because computer vendors at one time were trying to make claims about how 3rd party memory would void warranty or manufacturers tried to deny service if you had it installed. It is prohibited under MMWA to make those kinds of restrictions, unless it can be shown that this is the cause of the problem.

On the Lenovo site for example, a user asked if it would void warranty if they did a re-paste of the CPU. Lenovo responded that it would not as long is it was performed correctly and did not result in the CPU overheating. There has to be a direct correlation between what was done and what the problem was. If you re-paste the CPU and your WiFi card fails, it is of course still warranted.
 
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c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,890
3,268
To be honest, I don’t know. I’m fairly certain that they don’t just make new keyboards and throw the old ones away, too expensive and also very dumb. I would guess that the old top cases are centrally collected, refurbished and used to make new replacement parts.

I agree. They probably do that. Probably is the key word.
But there are two problems with that approach, first one is obvious, it's not ecological at all. It's actually opposite of ecological. My battery was on 87% health. I highly doubt Apple will use it in any refurbished MBP. Never seen that happen before.

And if that is what they are doing, second problem would be using faulty parts for refurbished laptops.
Third option would be that they simply reuse trackpads and throw away the rest.

Honestly, I don't know which option is worse of those 3. Best option would be:
Key fails. Replace the key.

But since Apple isn't ecological at all, and they really like to use glue, that one isn't an option anymore. One key fails, battery, trackpad, top shelf and keyboard have to be replaced. Sorry, but again, this is the worst decision a company can make for environment, and I even tried googling, but couldn't find any company that dose worse job in this department. Apple is by far the worse here.
 
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mcnallym

macrumors 65816
Oct 28, 2008
1,207
932
If Apple really cared about recycling, they wouldn't use all that glue in iMacs and their MBP lineup.
If just one key fails on your 5000$ MBP, entire top shell needs to be replaced. That means entire keyboard, trackpad, top shell and battery.

How is that ecologically responsible?

Because they then strip down the part taken out and recycle it. They don’t send it to landfill.
 
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