The thrill of Apple silicon is already gone

[Abazigal]

The Mac mini has had the same form factor since 2010. I’m confused.

You realize that the Mini predates the M1 chip and the M1 Studio is a chonky boy, where I don't see any advantages that that M1 gives us in that form factor

I meant to say that prior to the M1 chip, the Mac Mini came with integrated graphics because that was pretty much what you could fit in such a small form factor if you didn't want performance to throttle.

For comparison, Linus compared the Mac Studio to the HP Z2 Mini and found that the latter throttled like all the time, to the point where you never really get the performance you paid for.

I suppose one can argue the Mac Studio is chonky, but then I would counter - chonky relative to what?

 

[sam_dean]

I meant to say that prior to the M1 chip, the Mac Mini came with integrated graphics because that was pretty much what you could fit in such a small form factor if you didn't want performance to throttle.

For comparison, Linus compared the Mac Studio to the HP Z2 Mini and found that the latter throttled like all the time, to the point where you never really get the performance you paid for.

I suppose one can argue the Mac Studio is chonky, but then I would counter - chonky relative to what?

People find it difficult to understand the significance of 5nm in terms of raw performance as there are sufficiently numerous AAA native Apple silicon games that have a Windows counterpart.

I watched that video months ago and I found it fascinating that HP blindly pushed that product out without verifying if it would not throttle.

They expect procurement to just buy based on numbers and never mind if it actually maximize said feature set.

 

[macduke]

The writers who capitalize on the idea that Apple must be shaking up the entire industry every single year are the worst writers out there. Ignore them.

Some years you'll have incremental upgrades. 20% is huge compared to some years with Intel. I'm pretty sure I remember one chip update for MBPs around mid last decade that was only a 5-6% increase and it was after like 18 months.

Other years you'll have bigger upgrades—usually due to process changes. M3 will be one of those years when they switch from 5nm to 3nm. It will likely have a faster memory bandwidth across the chip, maybe ThunderBolt 5, 30% faster CPU, 40% faster GPU, and a couple extra hours of battery life. They probably won't push it as far as they could so they can save that for 3nm+ in the M4, before moving down to 2nm with the M5.

Competition is good. I hope Intel and AMD come in and clean Apple's clock because they weren't doing it before and Apple needs someone to push them forward because it's certainly not happening with the A-series. AMD was catching up fast, though. A long time ago I posited that Apple might switch to AMD for desktops before using their own chips, but it never happened, but that's how good AMD was getting.

 

[seek3r]

Windows on ARM started in 2011.

Microsoft with a dozen years' head start and Apple's about to end its transition by introducing a Mac Pro with Apple silicon before 2024.

Would not be surprised if Apple got the idea to move to ARM chips from Microsoft. lol.

Apple was one of ARMs founding companies

 

[sam_dean]

Apple was one of ARMs founding companies

Wow! What an honor! They released their first ARM Mac in Nov 2020...

 

[257Loner]

That's a bit off the mark. My gaming PC is an Intel 13600K + PNY GeForce 4090 in a CoolerMaster NR200P powered by a Corsair SF750 750W Platinum SFX size power supply. Runs cool and quiet. The whole computer is something like two Mac Studios stacked in size and could be even smaller with a different case and CPU cooler. Cost is still far less than a top spec Mac Studio.

The Apple Silicon is absolutely worthwhile for more compact, portable devices though. I can't wait to get rid of my 2019 Intel i9 Macbook Pro for a M2 Max model because the Intel is hot, noisy and underperforming.

I don't care that much about non-upgradeable RAM and disk space for a laptop, but having those limitations on a Mac Studio or Mac Mini is inexcusable. I could live with the RAM for its unique design, but not having a standard M.2 NVME drive is ridiculous only so that you need to get Apple's overpriced solutions.

I paid about 230 euros for a 2 TB Samsung 980 Pro drive for my PC yet getting the same diskspace on a Mac Studio is +690 euros! GTFO, Tim Cook.

I completely agree. Apple's SoC's have worked well for the iPhone, and have proven suitable for Apple's laptops as well, providing them with great battery life. But desktop users will simply choose an Nvidia 3090 for double the GPU performance of an M1 Ultra, or a 4090 for quadruple the performance.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

AMD is not mentioned as they never did meaningful CPU business with Apple.

The publication is an Apple magazine so why even bring up AMD which Apple has not done new business with for 2+ years.

AMD was not chosen as it is speculated that they could not accommodate all of Apple's demands and did not have Intel's resources.

Problem with Intel is odds are they stuck to 14nm process node for 6+ years to save on cost.

They sent out BS reasons why they could not move to 10nm before 2021 as they locked in all PC makers from Apple to HP.

When Apple left them then that's when they moved to 10nm because competition is back again.

Internally in my organization we only buy Ryzen ThinkPads for the 7nm chips. When we have a need of another $700 Thinkpad E14 or E15 laptop then I hope it is a 5nm chip.

My concern is improving efficiencies whether it be performance per watt, raw performance or reducing heat waste.

Intel lacks this... they're more of a desktop chip company than a laptop chip company.

Apple and AMD continue to do business on a daily basis. Apple continues to order custom ASIC GPGPUs for the Mac Pro.

 

[sam_dean]

Apple and AMD continue to do business on a daily basis. Apple continues to order custom ASIC GPGPUs for the Mac Pro.

Pls read what I wrote... 🤣

 

[QuantumOfSouls]

Linus compared the Mac Studio to the HP Z2 Mini and found that the latter throttled like all the time, to the point where you never really get the performance you paid for.

I think I'm going to have to create a thread about this.

Mac users seem oblivious to thermal throttling because it's rarely a problem for them, and the pc enthusiasts are always pointing out that intel/amd/nvidia components are more powerful, which is only true if you can keep them cool.

I've got a lot of respect for people that build, maintain, and upgrade their own computers but they are a special breed and it's clear that they enjoy the process as much as the end result. For anyone that wants to just buy a computer and use it, mac is the clear winner. Unless they want to play games.

I'm not going to say anything about spending thousands of dollars to play games when xbox/ps5 cost $500. Nope.

 

[Nugat Trailers]

Wow! What an honor! They released their first ARM Mac in Nov 2020...

And the first Apple product to use an ARM processor was released in 1993, the Apple Newton.
And the A4 was designed by Apple and made by Samsung.

ARM Macs may be new, that doesn't mean ARM's new to Apple.

 

[sam_dean]

And the first Apple product to use an ARM processor was released in 1993, the Apple Newton.
And the A4 was designed by Apple and made by Samsung.

ARM Macs may be new, that doesn't mean ARM's new to Apple.

Hurray! Time for a ticker-tape parade

 

[iPadified]

The M2 MBA power draw and heat is much higher than M1 MBA. So what makes you think it is any different for M2 Pro?

Higher clock speeds + More cores = more heat + power draw. It's why the M2 MBA thermal throttles so much more than the M1 MBA.

I care about it, as if I want a laptop that has fan noise under heavy loads, I might as well buy a PC laptop. That's the great thing about the current 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro, the fans almost never turn on.

Agree that laptops should be silent. However, what is important if the headroom for cooling. Apparently M2 was able to fit into a fan less design. For iPad Pro and MBA, M2 does not do much on sustained load compared to M1.

In Intel days we got higher power draw and 5% performance increase at best. Apple provide 20%+ and higher TDP. We wait for the analysis of noise levels.

What would you have preferred? Wait until the next node shift or and M2 with slightly higher TDP and 20%+ performance. Also if you have a M1X why are you upset? You are not the target. I likely buy a new computer at M7 and at that point I expect 1.2^6=3-fold performance increase without significant increase in power draw. Will I need that performance? Likely no unless software will be more demanding.

 

[iPadified]

People should bother more about the CO2 foot print than the price of electricity. Thus a smaller power draw is better than a larger power draw.

 

[sam_dean]

People should bother more about the CO2 foot print than the price of electricity. Thus a smaller power draw is better than a larger power draw.

It is more impactful to reduce carbon footprints by reducing human fertility rate than to be bothered about CO2 foot print.

I want to lower my power consumption to reduce the power bill for my home and businesses.

If it was only possible I'd love a $699 Macbook 12" A17 Bionic 3nm chip that uses a 20W charger be a viable business laptop so I can switch out $699 Thinkpad E14 Ryzen 5 7nm chip that uses a 65W charger.

Reduce power consumption by 70% for hundreds of users.

 

[QuantumOfSouls]

I just want to say that I feel terribly guilty about being a cancer on the planet, increasing CO2 levels with every breath I take. Whenever the people that run the world fly their private jets to Davos to tell me to eat bugs, I listen.

When I'm forced to buy a charger that doesn't come with a $1300 iphone, it makes me feel like I'm a better person. If it comes in a recyclable box, I feel so good I completely ignore all the chinese people that committed suicide making it and the african child slaves mining cobalt for the battery.

Consumerism is always best when combined with self flagellation. Maybe we're all killing the planet, but as long as my favorite corporations are selling virtue, I can maintain my feelings of moral superiority.

 

[kasakka]

I think I'm going to have to create a thread about this.

Mac users seem oblivious to thermal throttling because it's rarely a problem for them, and the pc enthusiasts are always pointing out that intel/amd/nvidia components are more powerful, which is only true if you can keep them cool.

I've got a lot of respect for people that build, maintain, and upgrade their own computers but they are a special breed and it's clear that they enjoy the process as much as the end result. For anyone that wants to just buy a computer and use it, mac is the clear winner. Unless they want to play games.

I'm not going to say anything about spending thousands of dollars to play games when xbox/ps5 cost $500. Nope.

It's not like you can't buy prebuilt PCs or custom assembled ones with parts you pick. It's not exactly black magic to put one together, even a small form factor system when you have a ton of resources, communities etc to help you. Obviously you have to have some curiosity to do that in the first place or get a friend or relative to do it for you.

Gaming consoles are better value for most users now that parts like GPUs have become super expensive. I would just buy a PS5 rather than build a more budget oriented gaming PC.

It's easier to make the argument for the highend PC vs a Mac Studio though. Just adding closest equivalent disk space pushes the baseline Mac Studio to a similar price as my 13600K + 4090 + 32 GB DDR5 + 3 TB system. Apple's margins on SSDs are just plain insane.

 

[seek3r]

Wow! What an honor! They released their first ARM Mac in Nov 2020...

Ok, but Apple’s been releasing ARM based devices pretty much continuously for 30 years now, since 1993 (all the NewtonOS devices, iPods, all iPhones, etc).

 

[diamond.g]

People find it difficult to understand the significance of 5nm in terms of raw performance as there are sufficiently numerous AAA native Apple silicon games that have a Windows counterpart.

Are there though?

 

[Joe Dohn]

Are there though?

The "numerous" killed it for me.
Natively, Apple Silicon only has Resident Evil Village, League of Legends and Starcraft.
It's a waste, but that's how it is.

 

[Philip Turner]

My 100 W M1 Max is pretty close in performance to an Nvidia/AMD workstation drawing 1300W.

What setup draws 1300 W? I think that's a massive overestimate. We also have to consider the maintained power consumption. For example, is a long-running simulation using both the CPU and GPU to their max?

Even then it is a still a cost savings. That's still money inside your pocket whether it be $0.10, $1.00, $100.00, $1,000.00.

I don't see how you arrived at that conclusion with the math. Let's say I live in most countries, where energy is ~$0.16/kWh. We should compare costs of an M1 Max Mac Studio with an equivalent PC workstation.

 

[Philip Turner]

It does not help that Apple's Metal requires a rewrite for what already works with AMD or Nvidia dGPUs.

I think it's more about having TBDR, which requires different approaches even with MoltenVK.

 

[diamond.g]

I think it's more about having TBDR, which requires different approaches even with MoltenVK.

With as much bandwidth as the GPU's have is IMR mode really that big of a performance hit these days?

 

[QuantumOfSouls]

it's not exactly black magic

There's more to building a pc than component prices and how easy it's supposed to be. You're glossing over a lot of market and manufacturer problems. Sorry.

 

[diamond.g]

There's more to building a pc than component prices and how easy it's supposed to be. You're glossing over a lot of market and manufacturer problems. Sorry.

View attachment 2147316

Linking an enthusiast channel doesn't discount what the other poster was saying. Even getting mediocre parts can still net you a playable gaming experience.

 

[Basic75]

A $699 Lenovo Thinkpad E14 with a 7nm AMD chip has a 65W charger vs a $999 Macbook Air M1 5nm has a 30W charger.

Let's be fair, the M1 MacBook Pro also has a 65W charger. The MacBook Air can get away with a cheaper 30W charger because the SoC will thermally throttle before stealing all the power from battery charging for a prolonged time. And perhaps MBA users don't mind longer charging times? Oh, and the M2 MBA with 10 GPU cores has a 35W charger (8 GPU cores only get you 30W). Apple is being a bit cheap here.