They do have some changes for us in Windows 8 Beta

[*LTD*]

Here are some MR members whom are pretty avid followers one can argue.
Not to just link to my thread, but 32% seem to say "we don't like it".

Here

Completely invalid.

MR members are not major market indicators. It's nice to have opinions and all, but a sampling off a tech website - of which the opinions of most of its members tend to have no actual basis in reality - is about as sloppy as you can get when gauging value and performance.

 

[tigres]

Completely invalid.

MR members are not major market indicators. It's nice to have opinions and all, but a sampling off a tech website - of which the opinions of most of its members tend to have no actual basis in reality - is about as sloppy as you can get when gauging value and performance.

How so LTD? Because the average public is not included in the sample? Effectively that could easily indicate that they don't even know why they are having problems with Shared Folders, SMB, and IMAP (just to name a few), so they deal by ignoring it.

 

[wpotere]

LOL, it may not be what is considered a valid way to poll, but it certainly does show the trend and that is valid.

 

[boss.king]

Others would kill to have those kinds of "failures." Apple, over the last few years, has destroyed entire competing platforms, nearly drove some competitors out of business or forced them to reset their strategy and can their flagship product(s), and has engineered a massive industry shift. And the best you could do was a mouse, a social feature integrated into iTunes, and an oversized speaker?

I was simply pointing out that not everything they touch is gold. My point is that they could benefit from listening to consumers occasionally, sometimes people actually do know what they want. Yes, they are successful. But they are also the most arrogant company I know of. You will no doubt argue that this is somehow a good thing, but to be honest I think they are too big now to be so arrogant. It was cool when they were the underdogs, but now they are well known and they need to connect with people.

 

[*LTD*]

How so LTD? Because the average public is not included in the sample? Effectively that could easily indicate that they don't even know why they are having problems with Shared Folders, SMB, and IMAP (just to name a few), so they deal by ignoring it.

Here's a little sampling of MR "vision" and prescience.

Complaining, whining, moaning.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/854974/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/855039/

 

[maflynn]

Like who?

All the major reviews of Lion were absolutely glowing. Macs are selling in record numbers. I'm not sure who these people are and in what force of numbers they're complaining (probably not enough to register) and driving a mass downgrade to SL (which isn't happening.)

Just go to the Lion forum here and see how many people absolutely hate Lion. Its clear that Lion has not been as well received as any other OS from apple. While it was successful in terms of sales, actual user experiences with it has been decidedly negative.

 

[tigres]

Here's a little sampling of MR "vision" and prescience.

Complaining, whining, moaning.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/854974/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/855039/

Irrelevant. Lion is the worst OS release I have used of Apple- and suffers many core prevalent issues when it comes to working.

People hear wine like sissy's, but this does not negate the fact that windows 8 looks tremendous, and Lion in it's current iteration is a terrible mess. Admit it, Windows is positioning itself once again to kick Apple's ass, so I hope Apple cleans up 10.7 to at least keep up.

 

[*LTD*]

I was simply pointing out that not everything they touch is gold.

Everything they touch that matters, that is, the fulcrum on which market turns, is.

My point is that they could benefit from listening to consumers occasionally,

Occasionally they probably do. A lot of companies do things occasionally. It doesn't actually mean anything.

sometimes people actually do know what they want.

Often (nearly every time, in Apple's case) after being shown what they want.

Yes, they are successful. But they are also the most arrogant company I know of. You will no doubt argue that this is somehow a good thing, but to be honest I think they are too big now to be so arrogant.

It's irrelevant.

It was cool when they were the underdogs, but now they are well known and they need to connect with people.

Seems they're connecting just fine, if by "connecting" you mean record sales for lord knows how many consecutive quarters now (over how many years), and, for example, a complete redefinition of what you and I know as "computing" . . . right after they redefined mobile.

Yeah, Apple tends to connect with consumers like no other tech company can hope to. You haven't seen frenzied anticipation until you've seen frenzied anticipation for Apple gear.

 

[Bernard SG]

About Lion:

Now back talking about the amazing Windows 8.

Go

 

[roadbloc]

How so LTD? Because the average public is not included in the sample? Effectively that could easily indicate that they don't even know why they are having problems with Shared Folders, SMB, and IMAP (just to name a few), so they deal by ignoring it.

What *LTD* doesn't realize is, not many 'average customers' use Macs. A minority have bought them out of confidence over iOS based devices, however that is unfortunately a minority. What he also doesn't realize, is that 'average consumers' don't really complain much about computers.

Using *LTD*'s logic, Vista was an astounding success since the 'average consumers' lapped it up. After all, Vista didn't struggle with running office or checking facebook.

It amuses me how Apple can be exempt from everything in *LTD*'s mind.

 

[*LTD*]

What *LTD* doesn't realize is, not many 'average customers' use Macs. A minority have bought them out of confidence over iOS based devices, however that is unfortunately a minority. What he also doesn't realize, is that 'average consumers' don't really complain much about computers.

Yeah, average folks don't care whether something's working right.

Using *LTD*'s logic, Vista was an astounding success since the 'average consumers' lapped it up. After all, Vista didn't struggle with running office or checking facebook.

It amuses me how Apple can be exempt from everything in *LTD*'s mind.

Exemptions are part of the equation, if you bother to look at what's behind the numbers.

MS/PC record sales happen for one reason. Apple record sales happen for entirely different reasons.

Sales figures - the rhyme and reason for them, are an entirely different beast when it comes to PCs, and likewise, an entirely different beast when it comes to Apple. They aren't the same businesses, nor are their strategies the same.

To examine sales figures divorced from their strategic and market context is a waste of time and will lead you to false conclusions.

Apple gear sells for one set of reasons. MS for another.

Vista on PCs didn't sell in substantial amounts for the same reason Macs sold in substantial amounts.

Think about it.

Consider, for example, the theme, tone and message of MS' "Laptop Hunters" campaign from a couple of years ago. Classic MS/PC strategy [when in fact a few of those customers (actors) actually wanted Macs, were it not for the fact they couldn't afford them!]

 

[tigres]

Yeah, average folks don't care whether something's working right.

Apple gear sells for one set of reasons. MS for another.

Conclusion: OSX 10.7 is for the common folk, not business user, so shut up business user and go back to Windows.

Apple gear sells for on set of reasons, mom/pop/kid/average joe/grandma etc, the true users and business users, shut up and go back to windows.

LTD, Lion sucks in it's current form; you know it, we all know it, and there is nothing you can say or show to change it. I can prove it on my Windows SBS network, but I will not waste time proving to you how Finder is completely jacked on networking for business's.

So, as I already stated- Windows 8 is on course to change the tone of OS's again; so Apple better pick it up. BTW we business users have non business user family/friends etc.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Some define and reshape the market because they have a commanding vision, and stick to it often in the face of enormous risk.

Others have to "listen" and be told what to do.

Others have to defend their almighty at all costs, even when the vision doesn't suit their needs.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

Completely invalid.

MR members are not major market indicators. It's nice to have opinions and all, but a sampling off a tech website - of which the opinions of most of its members tend to have no actual basis in reality - is about as sloppy as you can get when gauging value and performance.

Uh... And the people who are running Windows 8 right now are all tech-savvy people, the likes who hang out on sites LIKE Macrumors and Neowin. If your argument is that people complaining about Lion don't represent the broader market, remember that people complaining about Windows 8's start menu don't represent the broader market either.

----------------------

Back on topic, I'm glad that Microsoft is listening to user data. As it stands right now, the dev preview is great for writing metro apps, but I'd kill to get the old start menu back while in the old desktop.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Uh... And the people who are running Windows 8 right now are all tech-savvy people, the likes who hang out on sites LIKE Macrumors and Neowin. If your argument is that people complaining about Lion don't represent the broader market, remember that people complaining about Windows 8's start menu don't represent the broader market either.

----------------------

Back on topic, I'm glad that Microsoft is listening to user data. As it stands right now, the dev preview is great for writing metro apps, but I'd kill to get the old start menu back while in the old desktop.

But he only uses that argument when he is defending Apple and the evidence isn't in his favor. It must be an inner fear of Microsoft for some reason. Perhaps he is worried that Apple's chosen path will be wrong again, just like it was for the pc wars?

 

[*LTD*]

Conclusion: OSX 10.7 is for the common folk, not business user, so shut up business user and go back to Windows.

I've never seen OS X in the enterprise, outside of a few "creative" shops, universities and newsrooms. So you're absolutely right. I'm not sure what you mean by your comment, though. Maybe "business user" should stick with Windows.

Apple gear sells for on set of reasons, mom/pop/kid/average joe/grandma etc, the true users and business users, shut up and go back to windows.

I'm not sure who you're including as "business users" here. Exactly who are business users? Because a lot of "business users" use Apple gear for their personal computing.

LTD, Lion sucks in it's current form; you know it, we all know it, and there is nothing you can say or show to change it.

No, I don't know it. I don't know or understand unsupported (or poorly-supported) statements, especially those that are at best, anecdotal.

I can prove it on my Windows SBS network, but I will not waste time proving to you how Finder is completely jacked on networking for business's.

Why would you need a Windows network to prove anything that has to do with Lion? Oh, you want to use OS X with some Windows-based network?? LOL don't get your hopes up. Why would Apple bend over backward to make OS X play nicely with Windows SBS networks? You're lucky they've done as much as they have.

And why would the average consumer care what about that? Their first reaction would be (including mine) "WTF is a Windows SBS network"?

In the enterprise we use PCs. Because IT departments are cheap and IT folk like to depend on maintaining MS-ware for their livelihoods.

So, as I already stated- Windows 8 is on course to change the tone of OS's again

Weren't they supposed to do that last time?

"I have seen the future: Windows $NEXT_VERSION Milestone $MOCKUP."

"I am so excited about $NEXT_VERSION of Windows. It will go beyond just solving all of the problems with $CURRENT_VERSION, it will be an entirely new paradigm. Forget about security problems, those are all fixed in $NEXT_VERSION. And they are finally ridding themselves of $ANCIENT_LEGACY_STUFF."

"Also, there will be $DATABASE_FILESYSTEM. It will be awesome!"

"I wonder how $NEXT_VERSION will compare to $NEXT_NEXT_VERSION."

worried that Apple's chosen path will be wrong again, just like it was for the pc wars?

It was the right path. Thank god they didn't universally license OS X (or Mac OS, for that matter.) A vertical business model done right (it's easy to screw it up, just ask HP) will always be superior.

 

[munkery]

Lion can't be that bad. Transition rate for Lion is better than Windows 7.

- 6 million copies of Lion sold so far...up 80% over Snow Leopard. Took two weeks to reach 10% of installed Mac base. Windows 7 took 20 weeks to reach 10% of Windows base.

----------

BTW, there is already a thread concerning Windows 8.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1221609/

Why not continue that discussion?

 

[roadbloc]

Lion can't be that bad. Transition rate for Lion is better than Windows 7.

The Windows userbase is a helluva lot larger that the OS X userbase. Hell, many Mac users have a copy of Windows installed thanks to bootcamp, never mind the many many many many many PC users out there.

With a userbase so big, you simply cannot expect a quick transition rate.

 

[TheSideshow]

Lion can't be that bad. Transition rate for Lion is better than Windows 7.



----------

BTW, there is already a thread concerning Windows 8.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1221609/

Why not continue that discussion?

You bought that stat? Of course adoption will be faster when using % of users. Windows is used in enterprise and they dont just update the OS on computers in the first 2 weeks of launch. Windows is also used by people who just want a computer to do basic stuff and will never pay attention to an OS update.
Windows 7 destroys Lion in total sales (obvious right?) and I bet Lion destroys Windows 7 in % of users switching back to previous versions too.

Lastly people dont have trial OS's, so Lion can be that bad and sell that well as long as people don't KNOW it's that bad. Whether it is bad or not is up for debate though.

 

[munkery]

Kind of scary that companies using Windows in an enterprise setting wouldn't update to Windows 7 for the added security.

Windows XP still dominates in the enterprise as well in overall global market share.

Whether it is bad or not is up for debate though.

Sure, I totally agree. Everyone will have their own subjective opinion.

I don't find Lion incredibly different from SL.

 

[AppleScruff1]

You're comparing an Apple OS to Vista??

People bought a closed, unlicensed OS, running on expensive hardware (entry fee is usually $1000) in record numbers (in the case of Vista's era, during a recession), despite the availability of more inexpensive and flexible options.

Vs.

Another Windows iteration running on cheap PCs.



You're using MacRumors as a barometer of performance?

That's like asking Paris Hilton for relationship advice.

Or believing you are a credible source.

Lion can't be that bad. Transition rate for Lion is better than Windows 7.



----------

BTW, there is already a thread concerning Windows 8.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1221609/

Why not continue that discussion?

That was the most idiotic comparison that Tim made. !0% rate for Lion was a few million copies. !0% for Windows 7 is 100 million copies. That's the same as a car dealer saying that his business increased 100 percent from last week because he sold two cars instead of one. I can't believe that anyone fell for that one.

 

[boss.king]

Lion can't be that bad. Transition rate for Lion is better than Windows 7.

- 6 million copies of Lion sold so far...up 80% over Snow Leopard. Took two weeks to reach 10% of installed Mac base. Windows 7 took 20 weeks to reach 10% of Windows base.

Using that rate and the info LTD linked us to, Lion sold 6 million copies in the time Windows 7 sold roughly 8.6 million copies, and went on to sell 85.5 million copies in 20 weeks. Which transition rate is better now? I'd say Windows by a mile.

BTW, there is already a thread concerning Windows 8.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1221609/

Why not continue that discussion?

Because it was constantly being derailed by people coming in to tell everyone how good OSX is, despite is having no relevance to the topic.

Kind of scary that companies using Windows in an enterprise setting wouldn't update to Windows 7 for the added security.

Windows XP still dominates in the enterprise as well in overall global market share.

That's because many companies have huge networks set up on XP, with many programs that they cannot risk not working properly. Also, It's very expensive to upgrade an entire corporations computer system if it's not really needed. XP serves a lot of enterprise needs just fine (or at least it has until now). This is not a Windows only phenomenon either, my parents for example run an advertising agency entirely on Mac, but they don't upgrade until they absolutely have to, because comparability problems can be a real issue if your income and reputation relies on it. My university is also not going to upgrade to Lion for a while at least, despite the fact that it's discounted, but they have loaded windows 7 on all machines oddly enough.

 

[munkery]

That was the most idiotic comparison that Tim made. !0% rate for Lion was a few million copies. !0% for Windows 7 is 100 million copies. That's the same as a car dealer saying that his business increased 100 percent from last week because he sold two cars instead of one. I can't believe that anyone fell for that one.

Using that rate and the info LTD linked us to, Lion sold 6 million copies in the time Windows 7 sold roughly 8.6 million copies, and went on to sell 85.5 million copies in 20 weeks. Which transition rate is better now? I'd say Windows by a mile.

So, ratios are meaningless?

What about proportions?

1/10 = 1/10

Citing numbers independent of proportionality would be meaningful if other measures, such as growth and profitability, supported those numbers being meaningful.

But, Macs have outpaced Windows PCs in growth.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2...for-nearly-five-years-aided-by-enterprise.ars

And, Apple is more profitable than Microsoft.

http://www.techcrunch.com/2011/04/28/apple-microsoft-profit/

 

[roadbloc]

But, Macs have outpaced Windows PCs in growth.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2...for-nearly-five-years-aided-by-enterprise.ars

And, Apple is more profitable than Microsoft.

http://www.techcrunch.com/2011/04/28/apple-microsoft-profit/

And what has that got to do with anything we have been talking about? We are talking about software sales, not hardware.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

So, ratios are meaningless?

What about proportions?

1/10 = 1/10

Citing numbers independent of proportionality would be meaningful if other measures, such as growth and profitability, supported those numbers being meaningful.

But, Macs have outpaced Windows PCs in growth.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2...for-nearly-five-years-aided-by-enterprise.ars

And, Apple is more profitable than Microsoft.

http://www.techcrunch.com/2011/04/28/apple-microsoft-profit/

And Microsoft has far, far, outpaced Apple in the living room. What's your point?

And yes, ratios are completely irrelevant when you're dealing with such a large discrepancy. Donating 1/10 of your money to charity is a LOT different when you're a millionaire than if you're a homeless person. It's the difference between making rent for the month and writing off a large portion of your taxes. But it's still 10%.