This is not a "Pro" machine.

[slughead]

But how can that possibly work ?

Laptop and desktop peripherals need to be identical, else it creates a gap between the two akin to OSX vs. iOS devices .

It might not work, TB might not really catch on (like firewire). There's no reason for desktops to have TB, but there might be a reason for laptops to, that's all I was saying. Laptop users might be willing to pay the extra premium for TB storage since it's the best option they can get. Meanwhile, desktop users will probably remain content with PCIe (or internal SATA, at least for the near future).

 

[VirtualRain]

more CPU choices, if anybody is interested

Does that imply a 4.2GHz Hexa core option?

 

[barmann]

It might not work, TB might not really catch on (like firewire). There's no reason for desktops to have TB, but there might be a reason for laptops to, that's all I was saying. Laptop users might be willing to pay the extra premium for TB storage since it's the best option they can get. Meanwhile, desktop users will probably remain content with PCIe (or internal SATA, at least for the near future).

Well, FW caught on quite well, from affordable single drive storage to pro gear .

Apart from that, doesn't sound unreasonable, but it means the MP 6.x might be delivered into a TB vacuum .
Same with MacBooks and iMcas .

Again, it'll come down to what the TB market can provide by the end of the year , and at what cost . Right now, TB solutions are rare, untested, and priced way above their potentional performance .

And USB 3.0 is a strong competitor too , quite fast , if not nearly as good as a new FWxxxx, or a new hot-swap, port powered eSATA .

Whatever; the new MP is what it is. and reliese on TB externals for performance . Multiple ports will be mandatory for such devives, hubs TB - FW/TB/USB must be there from the get go .

 

[Tesselator]

...the MP 6.x might be delivered into a TB vacuum.

I dunno, when I type thunderbolt into Amazon I get 30 or 40 different devices in the first 10 or 15 pages. Most are storage devices but there's some multi-function docking solutions, a few video capture and playback devices, and so on too.

 

[MacVidCards]

It might not work, TB might not really catch on (like firewire). There's no reason for desktops to have TB, but there might be a reason for laptops to, that's all I was saying. Laptop users might be willing to pay the extra premium for TB storage since it's the best option they can get. Meanwhile, desktop users will probably remain content with PCIe (or internal SATA, at least for the near future).

Yes, the real problem is PC folks don't have a "problem" that TB solves.

Is it really such a burden to offer MDP and USB3 on separate ports? No, it isn't.

Nobody ever needed or asked for a single port that combined all existing ports.

There is a reason the Gas, electric, cable and sewer come on separate lines into your house. We don't need them all fit into a single connection just so one vendor can get rich selling the new "ElectroGasH20Cablepisnpoo Pipe"

Just like we don't need Apple & Intel deciding that their proprietary port is the ONLY way our computers talk to the world.

CUDA is BAD because it forces you to use one vendor's solution to a challenge, but forcing everyone to buy tech licensed by their partner Intel is GOOD because having everything through one port makes all the wires the same size?. (I'm sorry, is there a better justification? I can't recall if one was presented) Tasty Kool-Aid or marketing BS?

If TB is already the poor cousin to PCIE in bandwidth, why are we embracing this for a future where bandwidth is a limiting factor?

 

[OS6-OSX]

MacVidCards I have read several of your posts and figured out your problem! You are too analytical. You need to be amazed by all things that are apple. Ride up and down Melrose or Sunset Bl and yell to the people on the streets that iTunes has over 1 billion downloads! Tell them to never mind they could be tracked via their iPhone! That placing a net at Foxcom was the answer to the leapers! On and On and On!
Here, let's make a toast: To all things apple! Ignore the fact the beverage tastes like Koolaid!

 

[d-m-a-x]

no PCIe sucks, my main beef with this machine

 

[wallysb01]

ElectroGasH20Cablepisnpoo Pipe

That made me laugh.

 

[Tesselator]

no PCIe sucks, my main beef with this machine

I thought so at first too. But then when I thought more about it I can't think of a reason (besides keeping up with current gen. game cards) why. Now, the more I think of it the more I think: No great loss, the end of an era, no difference.

 

[scbond]

I can't understand why Apple is calling a non-expandable, no disc drive machine a "Pro" machine.

"Pro's", aka Professionals, do NOT want external expansion boxes cluttering their desk just because Apple deems it necessary to not allow people to expand it's internal components. ("expansion is external")

Professional users also want to burn media (videos, photos, etc) to DVDs and Blu Rays. Now, on top of a ~$3000+ machine, they have to purchase an additional external drive just to do that. Apple is not gonna undercut the price of the high end ridiculously priced 15" rMBP. ($2799)

Don't get me started on the internal storage. WHY can Pros NOT expand the internal storage? Yes, there are external drives, but when it comes down to it, it's yet ANOTHER external expansion box, cluttering an already cluttered desk.

You don't know what expansion plans Apple have in-mind yet. Much of it could be cloud based rather than just desk based. Wait until it is released and see what the options are then.

I have to say, I like the new Pro and it's clever design but there is plenty I would change about it.

 

[devilcm3]

Does that imply a 4.2GHz Hexa core option?

but thats the previous generation .... well, it could be .... since theres no Hexacore in the current generation haswell

 

[Micky Do]

I can't understand why Apple is calling a non-expandable, no disc drive machine a "Pro" machine.

"Pro's", aka Professionals, do NOT want external expansion boxes cluttering their desk just because Apple deems it necessary to not allow people to expand it's internal components. ("expansion is external")

Professional users also want to burn media (videos, photos, etc) to DVDs and Blu Rays. Now, on top of a ~$3000+ machine, they have to purchase an additional external drive just to do that. Apple is not gonna undercut the price of the high end ridiculously priced 15" rMBP. ($2799)

Don't get me started on the internal storage. WHY can Pros NOT expand the internal storage? Yes, there are external drives, but when it comes down to it, it's yet ANOTHER external expansion box, cluttering an already cluttered desk.

Let the pros decide, I reckon.

The new Pro may not be a geek's one box dream, but at the heart of a professional system, mated with peripherals to suit, it could well be the business.

 

[VirtualRain]

but thats the previous generation .... well, it could be .... since theres no Hexacore in the current generation haswell

I figure that GeekBench probably can't tell what processor it is (since Ivy Bridge E is not released yet), so the string identifier is most likely the closest match or something fairly random. I guess the same could be said of the other meta data reported. It just doesn't make sense to have a 4.2GHz chip (as much as I'd love to be proven wrong).

 

[barmann]

I dunno, when I type thunderbolt into Amazon I get 30 or 40 different devices in the first 10 or 15 pages. Most are storage devices but there's some multi-function docking solutions, a few video capture and playback devices, and so on too.

With prices starting at 24.99 for a 0.5 meter TB cable, right ?

 

[ABCDEF-Hex]

Don't say that - Macvid will have a stroke.

I thought so at first too. But then when I thought more about it I can't think of a reason (besides keeping up with current gen. game cards) why. Now, the more I think of it the more I think: No great loss, the end of an era, no difference.

Nobody want's to hear their area of expertise is dying out - but like you say it happens to everyone.

 

[vladi]

I thought so at first too. But then when I thought more about it I can't think of a reason (besides keeping up with current gen. game cards) why. Now, the more I think of it the more I think: No great loss, the end of an era, no difference.

PCIe is the future, our storage will all be PCIe based SSD a la Revo. GPUs will remain PCIe. Future video I/O loads with resolutions of 4K+ RAW will require PCIe speeds for live transfers onto large capacity PCIe SSDs. HPC is and will remain PCIe.

I am willing to bet my house that PCIe is not going anywhere, actually it will just become even faster by the end of 2014 with introduction fo PCIe 4.0

 

[Brian Y]

I consider myself to be a "pro" user. I use my computer for work including large data modelling, simulation and mathematical programming - all of which involves processing massive amounts of data.

However, I could use any computer I like. Heck, I could run a Pentium II locally and it would make no difference whatsoever. As long as it can run a text editor, has a web browser and a shell - it doesn't matter! Anyone doing large amounts of computation would be stupid to do it locally in this day and age, if you are a true professional user. Heck, even in my office everybody uses basic MacBooks, and we have a Mahoosive server setup which cost about the same 2 Mac Pros we have 48 Xeon cores at our disposal, with hundreds of GB of RAM, and ridiculously fast network storage. Having this available means we can schedule large tasks, and be far more productive.

 

[Tesselator]

With prices starting at 24.99 for a 0.5 meter TB cable, right ?

Yeah, that's a point. If not already available they'll be $5 in short order tho. Or you could buy a bag of connectors and a soldering iron. I did that for a while in the 70's and 80's. With such experience I was ashamed of myself when I recently paid $100+ for stereo cables. I'm a cable-sell-out.

Nobody want's to hear their area of expertise is dying out - but like you say it happens to everyone.

Yeah, I think it's time is beginning to end. I think TB is the beginning of the end for PCIe card-edge designs. TB1.0 was what PCIe v3 x2 20W and TB2.0 is PCIe v3 x4 40W so I guess in another 6 to 8 months we'll have TB3.0 at PCIe v3 x8 80W and x16 a year or so later - maybe with PCIe v4 coming in there somewhere along the line?

And I guess card manufacturers now need to start thinking about form-factor as well. Buying a $100 to $200 box just to house their cards isn't a very elegant or economical solution. They're gonna need to start thinking about stand-alone designs.

PCIe is the future, our storage will all be PCIe based SSD a la Revo. GPUs will remain PCIe. Future video I/O loads with resolutions of 4K+ RAW will require PCIe speeds for live transfers onto large capacity PCIe SSDs. HPC is and will remain PCIe.

I am willing to bet my house that PCIe is not going anywhere, actually it will just become even faster by the end of 2014 with introduction fo PCIe 4.0

Yeah, you're right 2014 is too early for it's complete demise. But by 2018 or so I guess it'll be all gone - and that's only 5 years off. My MP1,1 is what 7 years old now? Tho eventually I don't think we will need cables at all. Probably wireless proximity connections will be the future - Maybe 2020? I mean if free markets survive that long which is starting to look kinda iffy maybe. Don't forget The World Of Glass video and virtual devices are coming along as well too.

I can buy these now and they work OK. Cheap too.

​

 

[hfg]

Yeah, that's a point. If not already available they'll be $5 in short order tho. Or you could buy a bag of connectors and a soldering iron. I did that for a while in the 70's and 80's. With such experience I was ashamed of myself when I recently paid $100+ for stereo cables. I'm a cable-sell-out.

You may need a bit more than just your soldering iron for TB cables.

There are electronics within the connector at each end of the Thunderbolt cable, data line transceivers tuned to the length of the cable and the electrical characteristics of that cable to minimize reflections at the data rates involved. If it weren't for the "fine tuning" involved, they could have probably put the transceivers in the equipment side of the connection to enable cheaper cables (as they will probably do with the optical version when it matures).

 

[Oracle1729]

You don't know what expansion plans Apple have in-mind yet. Much of it could be cloud based rather than just desk based. Wait until it is released and see what the options are then.

I have to say, I like the new Pro and it's clever design but there is plenty I would change about it.

Yep, that sounds really pro, being dependent on an internet connection and third party for your business data.

I can't wait to tell a client, sorry I have to cancel our meeting because iCloud is down.

If Apple went to a cloud based expansion it's just waving their middle finger at the pro users.

Even if there were no reliability issues, how is it a good thing to have to pay someone else a monthly fee to store my data when 25 gig Blu-ray discs are under a dollar and 4 TB hard drive are under $150? My Sata3 connection is a hell of a lot faster than your internet connection, and a hell of a lot cheaper than renting storage space online. There is zero benefit to iCloud for pro use. iCloud a nice kiddie toy for storing music because Apple charges $300 for 112 gig of flash memory when a 120 gig SSD is $80.

Edit: My local HD's work at about 100 MB/sec, a 30 gig photoshoot takes me 5 minutes to copy to my local HD and 5 more to copy to an external backup drive. I have very fast reliable internet that gives me 5mbps up, so at the peak speed it would take 17 hours instead of 5 minutes. For someone on a more typical ADSL at 128k up, they're looking at 2 months of constant on-time to upload a single shoot. If I do 3 shoots a months, that's almost 100 gig per month, I'd have to pay my ISP extra for extra bandwidth even on my big plan. How much will a couple of TB of of cloud storage cost?

A single .psd file for me is about 50 meg, at 5mpbs, I'm looking at a 2 minute wait every time I click save if I'm working on the cloud (compared to 1/2 second for local storage). If I'm using small local SSD storage, it doesn't go very far when 20 working files eats up a gig, so no local spinning drives = not enough working space for a single project. Yep, this is a real pro solution Timmy's come up with.


----------

There are electronics within the connector at each end of the Thunderbolt cable, data line transceivers tuned to the length of the cable and the electrical characteristics of that cable to minimize reflections at the data rates involved.

The stupidity of Apple/Intel design engineers is the reason TB should die a slow painful death leaving the early adopters hanging. It is no reason customers should have to pay stupid high prices just because the cable really needs silicon.

USB3 can work at 5gbps with plain wires and work as a peripheral, and TB at 10gbps needs silicon in the cable and cpu laneways. It's pretty clear to anyone who's not addicted to Apple Kool-Aid that TB is a doa piece of garbage made by incompetent engineers and USB3 is the way to go. The fact that there's only so many Kool-Aid addicts in the world explains why TB is withering on the vine.

 

[subsonix]

PCIe is the future, our storage will all be PCIe based SSD a la Revo. GPUs will remain PCIe. Future video I/O loads with resolutions of 4K+ RAW will require PCIe speeds for live transfers onto large capacity PCIe SSDs. HPC is and will remain PCIe.

I am willing to bet my house that PCIe is not going anywhere, actually it will just become even faster by the end of 2014 with introduction fo PCIe 4.0

But is it the future of PCs? Thunderbolt is PCIe, SATA Express is PCIe etc.

----------

The stupidity of Apple/Intel design engineers is the reason TB should die a slow painful death leaving the early adopters hanging. It is no reason customers should have to pay stupid high prices just because the cable really needs silicon.

USB3 can work at 5gbps with plain wires and work as a peripheral, and TB at 10gbps needs silicon in the cable and cpu laneways. It's pretty clear to anyone who's not addicted to Apple Kool-Aid that TB is a doa piece of garbage made by incompetent engineers and USB3 is the way to go. The fact that there's only so many Kool-Aid addicts in the world explains why TB is withering on the vine.

The reason for the active cables is that it's physically required to get any useful cable length at 20Gb/s (including DisplayPort).

 

[Oracle1729]

The reason for the active cables is that it's physically required to get any useful cable length at 20Gb/s (including DisplayPort).

1) USB 3 tells us otherwise. If 5gbps were some magic technical cutoff (which is doubtful since 10 gigabit Ethernet uses regular cables), then the TB engineers are still idiots for going to 10gbps. Factor of 2 is nothing with computers and definitely not worth the hurdles.

2) Then put the electronics in the device connector for say a 6 foot run, if you need longer then switch over to in-cable electronics. Makes TB cheap for the masses to speed adoption, and workable at long runs for people willing to pay for the premium cables. Gee these Apple/Intel engineers really are idiots if I can come up with better ideas on the fly.

3) Doesn't explain why you have to blow your PCIe laneways for such a small speed increase. vs USB 3.

 

[subsonix]

1) USB 3 tells us otherwise. If 5gbps were some magic technical cutoff (which is doubtful since 10 gigabit Ethernet uses regular cables), then the TB engineers are still idiots for going to 10gbps. Factor of 2 is nothing with computers and definitely not worth the hurdles.

2) Then put the electronics in the device connector for say a 6 foot run, if you need longer then switch over to in-cable electronics. Makes TB cheap for the masses to speed adoption, and workable at long runs for people willing to pay for the premium cables. Gee these Apple/Intel engineers really are idiots if I can come up with better ideas on the fly.

3) Doesn't explain why you have to blow your PCIe laneways for such a small speed increase. vs USB 3.

USB 3 has 1/4 of the rate. I'm not sure why you think it's not required, but it's too bad that intel did not know about your expertise when they came up with the spec because it sure looks like they could have hired you as a consultant and avoided the transceivers.

http://www.semtech.com/high-speed-interfaces/thunderbolt-cable-transceivers/gn2033/

 

[Tesselator]

You may need a bit more than just your soldering iron for TB cables.

There are electronics within the connector at each end of the Thunderbolt cable, data line transceivers tuned to the length of the cable and the electrical characteristics of that cable to minimize reflections at the data rates involved. If it weren't for the "fine tuning" involved, they could have probably put the transceivers in the equipment side of the connection to enable cheaper cables (as they will probably do with the optical version when it matures).

Oh, right... I forgot all about that. Oh well, I guess $25 isn't too bad for such a new type.

I wonder if they'll sell such connecter caps anyway? If so then what, there will be different caps for different cable lengths?

 

[portishead]

The stupidity of Apple/Intel design engineers is the reason TB should die a slow painful death leaving the early adopters hanging. It is no reason customers should have to pay stupid high prices just because the cable really needs silicon.

USB3 can work at 5gbps with plain wires and work as a peripheral, and TB at 10gbps needs silicon in the cable and cpu laneways. It's pretty clear to anyone who's not addicted to Apple Kool-Aid that TB is a doa piece of garbage made by incompetent engineers and USB3 is the way to go. The fact that there's only so many Kool-Aid addicts in the world explains why TB is withering on the vine.

USB3 is fine for a slow external drive, but TB is great for everything else. TB belongs to Intel, I'm not sure what that has to do with Apple kool-aid. It sounds like TB put you out of business or something.