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Very closeminded. I remember when HDD's were a few gig and we'd reached the limits of what was possible with platter density. Metal is not at it's end yet, and optical is pretty cheap and only beginning to enter mainstream.

Engineers have to work with real world constraints, now. They, unlike you can not build things based on wishes. Optical for the mainstream relies on things like this: http://newsroom.intel.com/community...el-silicon-photonics-demonstrated-at-100-gbps


Yes, very funny. 10GbE optical is about $25. For copper, cat 6 is rated up to 10 gigabit and is about $5 for a cable.

Cheap optical cables just moves the cost to the connector
 

Yeah, I've found that page too. When one clicks on the "Where To Buy" button, one finds:

"Information Coming Soon

This device has not yet been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission

This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained."


And when one does a bit more fact-checking, it comes to light that the press releases announcing that webpage are six (6) months old ... and counting.


The only one I've found actually for sale is by Sumitomo Electric Industries on Amazon Japan, where a 20m cable is a mere US$831 (¥ 84,000)



-hh
 
Yeah, I've found that page too. When one clicks on the "Where To Buy" button, one finds:

"Information Coming Soon

This device has not yet been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission

This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained."


And when one does a bit more fact-checking, it comes to light that the press releases announcing that webpage are six (6) months old ... and counting.

The only one I've found actually for sale is by Sumitomo Electric Industries on Amazon Japan, where a 20m cable is a mere US$831 (¥ 84,000)

-hh

They (Sumitomo Electric Industries) where apparently the first to make them, the technology was first announced in January this year. Perhaps it's something that will be ready at the time the Mac Pro is released. There is not much point to it outside of professional installations with dedicated machine rooms. 3 meters is probably enough for single users with laptops and small one man shops.
 
They where apparently the first to make them, the technology was first announced in January this year. Perhaps it's something that will be ready at the time the Mac Pro is released.

It goes back further than that, unfortunately: back in 2009, the conversation was to have copper with the optical so as to provide power for external peripherals.

In January 2011, Intel's David Perlmutter told Computerworld that initial Thunderbolt implementations would be based on copper wires, as "The copper came out very good, surprisingly better than what we thought". It also solved the power problem.

In 2013, one instance of optical finally started to ship, in Japan only. And it stripped out the peripheral power provision.

All in all, that's a tad more than only six months of development time.



There is not much point to it outside of professional
installations with dedicated machine rooms. 3 meters is probably enough
for single users with laptops and small one man shops.

A 3m max is only adequate for a cubicle type office with a single stack. Move into the "One Man Shop" environment and you're in a more improvised space and you'll find that even USB's and Firewire's more generous 4.5m limits are often put to the test. Something as simple as a doorway to run up, over & down will eat up ~3m, even if the cabling never dips below workspace height.

FWIW, I'm very much trying to not use the "V" (Vaporware) word, but...


-hh
 
It goes back further than that, unfortunately: back in 2009, the conversation was to have copper with the optical so as to provide power for external peripherals.

In January 2011, Intel's David Perlmutter told Computerworld that initial Thunderbolt implementations would be based on copper wires, as "The copper came out very good, surprisingly better than what we thought". It also solved the power problem.

In 2013, one instance of optical finally started to ship, in Japan only. And it stripped out the peripheral power provision.

All in all, that's a tad more than only six months of development time.

Do you view this as some kind of competition? I'm aware of intel's initial plans, then known as Lightpeak. They decided on copper for the first version since it was cheaper. The first real cable was announced in January this year.


A 3m max is only adequate for a cubicle type office with a single stack. Move into the "One Man Shop" environment and you're in a more improvised space and you'll find that even USB's and Firewire's more generous 4.5m limits are often put to the test. Something as simple as a doorway to run up, over & down will eat up ~3m, even if the cabling never dips below workspace height.

FWIW, I'm very much trying to not use the "V" (Vaporware) word, but...


-hh

Pros may need more, but they are also less price sensitive than prosumers and consumers. They are probably busy doing professional work instead of whining on Macrumors as well. :)
 
I'm afraid it's you who miss the point. 10GbE is 10Gb/s Ethernet, the regular cat5 Ethernet cables for a couple of bucks are used at 1Gb/s.

Fast ethernet externals are so rarely used, and so expensive, it simply doesn't exist , there is no room for it in a general discussion of the new MP .

Same with TB, only you just can't stopp the nerds from yabbering about specs and protocols and whatnot ... ;)
 
well, i'm looking at a 200GB lacie firewire drive that i paid over $200 for some time ago..

i'm willing to bet i'll have no problem spending the same amount on 2TB storage via thunderbolt.

or does that not answer your question properly?

It's a fair answer. I bought a 2TB USB 3 drive at Costco for $100 not long ago, so you're answer is you'd pay 100% more plus finding somewhere to buy it for that price (assuming you can get it for that price).

100% more just to have a "pro" machine with no drive bays. I guess my answer is Apple needs to ditch the Kool-Aid and your answer is shut up and take my money. At least we see where we disagree now.

----------

Cheap optical cables just moves the cost to the connector

Exactly!! So we agree that the design engineers are idiots for not putting the electronics in the connector so we can have cheap optical cables.
 
Exactly!! So we agree that the design engineers are idiots for not putting the electronics in the connector so we can have cheap optical cables.

I was referring to the other part of the connector, the socket. Making the cable passive moves that part and it's price to the socket.

----------

I bought a 2TB USB 3 drive at Costco for $100 not long ago, so you're answer is you'd pay 100% more plus finding somewhere to buy it for that price (assuming you can get it for that price).

100% more just to have a "pro" machine with no drive bays. I guess my answer is Apple needs to ditch the Kool-Aid and your answer is shut up and take my money. At least we see where we disagree now.

The Mac Pro has four USB 3 sockets.
 
It's a fair answer. I bought a 2TB USB 3 drive at Costco for $100 not long ago, so you're answer is you'd pay 100% more plus finding somewhere to buy it for that price (assuming you can get it for that price).

100% more just to have a "pro" machine with no drive bays. I guess my answer is Apple needs to ditch the Kool-Aid and your answer is shut up and take my money. At least we see where we disagree now.


let me guess- you don't actually use computers as a means of income -or- you're not actually a 'pro' user.
be honest
 
Do you view this as some kind of competition? I'm aware of intel's initial plans, then known as Lightpeak. They decided on copper for the first version since it was cheaper. The first real cable was announced in January this year.

If you're aware as you claim to be, you would have been easily able to read into the prior Intel statements: they've had optical running for years in development, but also knew that it was cost-prohibitive for the market.

And for Sumitomo to roll out an $800+ TB cable in 2013 affirms these business case factors. Plus, you can bet your last subway token that Corning is astutely watching how they're doing to see if there's a viable business case...it makes far too much business sense not to...to see *if* they're going to sell the same product in the USA or skip it.

Pros may need more, but they are also less price sensitive than prosumers and consumers.

Not quite. Pros generally have more resources that they can leverage when they have a justified need. However, having the ability doesn't alleviate them from having to make a solid business case to justify the capital expense.

To that end, what's becoming more evident here is that for the applicable peripherals, a Fibre Channel adaptor is a fiscally realistic alternative to consider versus forking over the bucks to buy a long TB cable. In the end, this becomes another factor of the Tube's design which makes it tougher on the small shops.

They are probably busy doing professional work instead of whining on Macrumors as well. :)

I'm sorry, but that unnecessary comment smacks of being a purposeful ad hominem personal attack, which in addition to being offensive, is highly unprofessional...yes, note the irony there.


-hh
 
It's a fair answer. I bought a 2TB USB 3 drive at Costco for $100 not long ago, so you're answer is you'd pay 100% more plus finding somewhere to buy it for that price (assuming you can get it for that price).

100% more just to have a "pro" machine with no drive bays. I guess my answer is Apple needs to ditch the Kool-Aid and your answer is shut up and take my money. At least we see where we disagree now.

----------



Exactly!! So we agree that the design engineers are idiots for not putting the electronics in the connector so we can have cheap optical cables.


http://www.amazon.com/LaCie-Thunder...339360&sr=8-5&keywords=thunderbolt+hard+drive

Unno, $300 isn't a bad price for a 3TB Thunderbolt drive. I have two connected to my iMac.

But please, can we get away from the "real pros have to have XXXXX" argument. Mostly because it's untrue in most cases. I'm a professional, I do package designs for toys, movie merchandise (replicas) and statues. I can do all of it on my 2009 MacBook Pro if I want. I make decent money doing coloring for a few comics on the side, which I do on my iMac. Which in my case, makes both of my computers "Pro".
 
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If you're aware as you claim to be, you would have been easily able to read into the prior Intel statements: they've had optical running for years in development, but also knew that it was cost-prohibitive for the market.

I just mentioned that didn't I. You can bet that these particular cables aren't meant for home users.

Now will Corning sell these cables, we will see I guess.
 
I was referring to the other part of the connector, the socket. Making the cable passive moves that part and it's price to the socket.
....
The Mac Pro has four USB 3 sockets.

I am saying put the more expensive electronics in the device is the smart way to go. Every device builds it into the cost and cables are cheap that way. Plus with refinements you add controllers that allow multiple sockets to share electronics. Putting it in the cable is idiocy.

What good is 4 USB3 sockets? I have 6 internal harddrives, a Blu-ray burner, and a SSD in my tower. I have a Wacom tablet, I need to use a display calibrator from time to time, usb flash memory sticks, external HD's. I suppose it's more "pro" to use usb hubs and split the bandwidth rather than provide internal bays.

----------

let me guess- you don't actually use computers as a means of income -or- you're not actually a 'pro' user.
be honest

When I need mass external storage drives to hold my photo library (yes, professional work and multiple terabytes) as both on-site and off-site backup copies, why in the world would I even consider paying the premium for thunderbolt? I get 5-10 gig per minute on USB3, so a weekly update of 100 gig takes under 10 minutes. I'm backing up to commodity hard drives, so I'm not even close to saturating USB3 which means thunderbolt will make no difference.

Or is your definition of a 'pro' user someone who has no idea what tech they're using but figures more money must be more 'pro'?

I also use a cMBP as my laptop because the rMBP is too locked down for my tastes, that doesn't mean my work is less pro either or that price even factors into that choice.
 
But please, can we get away from the "real pros have to have XXXXX" argument. Mostly because it's untrue in most cases. I'm a professional, I do package designs for toys, movie merchandise (replicas) and statues. I can do all of it on my 2009 MacBook Pro if I want. I make decent money doing coloring for a few comics on the side, which I do on my iMac. Which in my case, makes both of my computers "Pro".

I agree that the pro/non-pro user argument is stupid and I certainly didn't start it. I've said here that for my professional use a mac mini is actually a better choice than this mac pro, even though in the past I've been willing to buy the entry level pro and pay the premium for the all in one box design.

My main issue though is that the "mac pro", regardless of who uses it, is supposed to be a no-compromises workhorse, not a crippled little headless iMac piece of eye candy with major functionality stripped out in the name of a smaller package.
 
I am saying put the more expensive electronics in the device is the smart way to go. Every device builds it into the cost and cables are cheap that way. Plus with refinements you add controllers that allow multiple sockets to share electronics. Putting it in the cable is idiocy.

What good is 4 USB3 sockets? I have 6 internal harddrives, a Blu-ray burner, and a SSD in my tower. I have a Wacom tablet, I need to use a display calibrator from time to time, usb flash memory sticks, external HD's. I suppose it's more "pro" to use usb hubs and split the bandwidth rather than provide internal bays.

The controller already is in the device. But either way you end up paying for it. And optical cables can be backwards compatible with the existing design and sockets.

We compared a single drive just a moment ago that is what I responded to, if you have several you probably want an enclosure.
 
I can't believe this thread has been active for 16 days with the same people saying the same things.

I think sides have been chosen
 
I can't believe this thread has been active for 16 days with the same people saying the same things.

I think sides have been chosen

Like another poster said, repeating yourself, or repeating hearing the arguments of others can be a good thing. Few people will change their mind when they hear something once. They need to hear it, think about, talk more about it and repeat several times before opinions change.

So far these discussions have been very civilized on the whole, so I don't see why anyone needs to stop discussing it, if they want to continue.

----------

Yeah, that's my biggest complaint with those. I figured they'd work well as a stop gap until chainable drives drop in price.

But if you need to chain 3 of these together, why not just buy a Thunderbolt RAID option?
 
Like another poster said, repeating yourself, or repeating hearing the arguments of others can be a good thing. Few people will change their mind when they hear something once. They need to hear it, think about, talk more about it and repeat several times before opinions change.

yeah.. maybe oracle should tell me 5 more times that the macpro is the same thing as a mac mini with a different enclosure.. then i'll change my mind
:D
 
yeah.. maybe oracle should tell me 5 more times that the macpro is the same thing as a mac mini with a different enclosure.. then i'll change my mind
:D

Or maybe him hearing himself say that five more times will change his?
 
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