This is not a "Pro" machine.

[flat five]

The mac pro can acommodate 6 drives internally. No need for large enclosure, bays or connector beside $2.00 sata cable.

large enclosure? it's 8x the size of the new mac pro.. some of which is to house drives.. this isn't even worth arguing about because in opposition to what i said, you're saying hard drives are free to use and take up zero space.. it's like magic

----------

I think you're supposed to drink the kool-aid, not snort it.

haha.. good one

Yes, the new mac pro uses a crappy plastic case.

really?

----------

MARGINAL COST...ECONOMY OF SCALE[/URL]

yadayadayada
you're definitely paying at least a couple hundred dollars for the old case/space/drivebays/sata hookups.. or does apple just throw those in for free?

 

[-hh]

Wait, you're saying the MARGINAL COST of a larger computer case and onboard sata controller (Vs a smaller case and no SATA controller on the mobo) is going to be MORE than adding

1) Thunderbolt Controller
2) Thunderbolt cable
3) Thunderbolt -> SATA controller
4) External enclosure
5) External PSU

I think ...

Well said.

To compare, we need to try to guess at what Apple's cost is for the current Big Old Aluminum case is a challenge...on the one hand, its a really nice case. On another, it has also been around since 2003 (virtually unchanged). We do know that one can buy a generic PC case for $100 retail, so after some SWAG massaging, its probably safe to say that Apple's wholesale cost is sure to be under $100.

From there, we would need to figure out the incremental cost of that $100 case being bigger or smaller ... quite frankly, it really isn't worth all that much of an effort, because we can assume it is huge ... 30% ... and that number means that it equal to the cost of just the Thunderbolt cable in the above inventory list and our cost comparison is over.

Yes, the new mac pro uses a crappy plastic case.

Extruded deep draw aluminum, which is then treated somehow to make it glossy black.

The move to a more proprietary motherboard may even have the nMP costing more to produce than the existing one (ignoring the price of the video cards).

Agreed: Apple is taking a significant departure from a lot of well established and cost-amortized designs & interfaces from the WinTel PC side of the world, which means that Apple gets stuck paying 100% of their lifecycle fixed costs...or more accurately, Apple pays them upfront, and then sets the price so as to pass 100% of these higher expenses along to the customers to pay.

Golly gee thanks, Apple!



-hh

 

[slughead]

yadayadayada
you're definitely paying at least a couple hundred dollars for the old case/space/drivebays/sata hookups.. or does apple just throw those in for free?

Try again. I can buy a BRAND NEW Mac Pro case for $180. I assume Apple pays, at most, 1/2 of that. So you have to SUBTRACT out the cost of the nMP case from $180 (or, more likely, <$100) to get the marginal cost of adding more drive bays, THEN compare that to the costs I mentioned above (external enclosure, external PSU, controller, cabling, etc). Are we approaching absurdity, yet?

You're right, I was wrong about the nMP case--it IS aluminum after all. However, this actually means even less price difference between this case and the old mac pro! My [wrong] assumption actually gave the new Mac Pro the benefit of a lower price point, my bad! Your argument is now even more invalid than before.

----------

New Mac Pro Case is machined aluminum not Plastic. Why do some people insist on calling it Plastic when one of the few facts out there is that the case is machined aluminum.

My bad, I was wrong about that--but see above post, this goes to prove my point even more.

 

[flat five]

Try again. I can buy a BRAND NEW Mac Pro case for $180 off e-bay. I assume Apple pays, at most, 1/2 of that.

maybe.. but what apple pays and what you pay apple are two entirely different things.

Keep trying to push that external enclosures are cheaper than a larger case, you may even convince some of the more purple-teethed Kool-Aid guzzlers on ehre.

i'm not trying to push anything.. homie said that in the past, the ability to use internal hard drives was free to the user and i called bs (and still call bs.. no way any of you are going to convince me apple just threw that in for free)


and if what you all are saying is true (the big enclosure and storage bays etc were free), then i'm really kind of scared about what kind of price we'll be looking at on the new mac.

i'm willing to guess there will be a similar price point as we've previously seen.. macs (all of them) are generally predictable when it comes to price.

but if by shrinking the case and getting rid of some of the internal expansion ability saves the end buyer no money, are we to expect all the new stuff added (i.e.- dual graphics) are just going to be added to the existing price?..

i'm starting to think we're looking at a $5000 computer here

My bad, I was wrong about that--but see above post, this goes to prove my point even more.

even when i'm wrong it's a good thing?
sweet, i need to try that out sometime :/

 

[slughead]

Agreed: Apple is taking a significant departure from a lot of well established and cost-amortized designs & interfaces from the WinTel PC side of the world, which means that Apple gets stuck paying 100% of their lifecycle fixed costs...or more accurately, Apple pays them upfront, and then sets the price so as to pass 100% of these higher expenses along to the customers to pay.

You forgot to put "FIXED COST" in big bold italic letters and link it to the wikipedia article

Of course I got "yaddayadda'd"' when I point out basic micro-economic concepts. Logic is no match for unchecked and unfounded conjecture. Apparently my old Mac Pro case is made of solid gold and the new one will be made out of fairy dust.

I was wrong about the plastic in the new case, but that just makes the argument even more ridiculous.

 

[flat five]

T

You don't really own a Mac Pro now do you?

yes, i do

----------

Logic is no match for unchecked and unfounded conjecture. Apparently my old Mac Pro case is made of solid gold and the new one will be made out of fairy dust.

i'm just saying that the new one is way smaller than the old one.. that's all..
in my head, i'm assuming material/production/shipping costs will be that much less and equally reflected onto the buyer..

 

[subsonix]

Logic is no match for unchecked and unfounded conjecture. Apparently my old Mac Pro case is made of solid gold and the new one will be made out of fairy dust.

Logic isn't affected by the truth of the premises, but talking about conjectures, how much is the new Mac Pro?

 

[slughead]

maybe.. but what apple pays and what you pay apple are two entirely different things.

So Apple buying at bulk wholesale (or possibly making the case themselves) pays more than I do? Makes sense.

i'm not trying to push anything.. homie said that in the past, the ability to use internal hard drives was free to the user and i called bs (and still call bs.. no way any of you are going to convince me apple just threw that in for free)

I don't think he said it was free, but regardless of what HE said, YOU said enclosures were cheaper than having a bigger case (clearly false) and I said that clearly the reverse was true.

and if what you all are saying is true (the big enclosure and storage bays etc were free)

I never said that. Here, I'll express this mathematically:

[Small Case (with no drives) + 6 SATA Drive External Drive Enclosure] > [Larger case and mobo with SATA built in]


Got it? Also, Those connectors, cables, etc for SATA are cheaper than dirt, by the way. So that is a non-issue. Also keep in mind that you have to have all those cables and sleds in your new enclosure box that you'll be forced to buy with the nMP.

but if by shrinking the case and getting rid of some of the internal expansion ability saves the end buyer no money

First off, this was not the point. What you are presenting here is a STRAWMAN argument. The point was that YOU were incorrect when you said external enclosures were a cheaper alternative than having internal drives, this is clearly false and I'm not repeating the obvious reasons why.

Secondly, you are clearly wrong that External Enclosures are cheaper than having more internal expansion in the computer itself (let me reiterate that). However, you also said that removing the SATA controller in the old Mac Pro would save money, and this is almost certainly false. Let me say again: The new Mac Pro form-factor will not save any money by removing the SATA ports on the motherboard. The reason we're thinking this is because of the change from a mass-produced intel motherboard with a slight modification to an extremely proprietary form-factor. Please read this article and this article about very basic microeconomic concepts. So let's put this together, the nMP will not save money by moving to a smaller motherboard. The change in case design may save money (I've acknowledge this), but the mobo itself? Unlikely.

There, now I've said it 3 times.

I can only assume by misrepresenting everyone's argument that you might have some cognitive dissonance rattling around up there.

even when i'm wrong it's a good thing?
sweet, i need to try that out sometime :/

My error was actually in your favor. Thank you for correcting me. I concede your point that you were more wrong than I had previously suspected on the point about costs, and that the nMP will have a more expensive case than I previously suspected. And yes, conceding you're wrong is a good thing, you should try it sometime.

 

[GermanyChris]

New Mac Pro Case is machined aluminum not Plastic. Why do some people insist on calling it Plastic when one of the few facts out there is that the case is machined aluminum.



Why do you need Sata Cables to install 6 drives in a Mac Pro.

The 4 sleds if you connect the drives into them slot straight onto Power/Sata connectors on the main board, so why would you need a sata cable.

If you want to take fill the two optical bay then again there are already cabling run through for 2 devices Power/Sata that you plug straight onto the Disk.

At least that is what is inside my Mac Pro 2010, don't know how they work in other peoples Mac Pro's

The only cables I have had to purchase was 2 GPU Power Cables for my GTX680.

If you can't get the basics right then people will question what else you post!

2008 and back you need to buy SATA cables and plug them in to the extra SATA ports. The advantage is you can get 6 HDD's and 2 ODD's in the thing.

You don't need to be snide

 

[slughead]

Logic isn't affected by the truth of the premises, but talking about conjectures, how much is the new Mac Pro?

I never said I knew, but certainly not cheaper than the old model MSRP if you have to purchase an external TB enclosure because of lack of internal storage--I was just responding to his post saying the opposite.

 

[tuxon86]

New Mac Pro Case is machined aluminum not Plastic. Why do some people insist on calling it Plastic when one of the few facts out there is that the case is machined aluminum.



Why do you need Sata Cables to install 6 drives in a Mac Pro.

The 4 sleds if you connect the drives into them slot straight onto Power/Sata connectors on the main board, so why would you need a sata cable.

If you want to take fill the two optical bay then again there are already cabling run through for 2 devices Power/Sata that you plug straight onto the Disk.

At least that is what is inside my Mac Pro 2010, don't know how they work in other peoples Mac Pro's

The only cables I have had to purchase was 2 GPU Power Cables for my GTX680.

If you can't get the basics right then people will question what else you post!

I said the cable were worth $2.00 not that you necesseraly need them. I said it as a price comparaison to the $30.00+ TB cable.

And if your only mesure of the knowledge or worth of people you meet on the internet are based on your poor judgment, as you just demonstrated in your snide remark at the end of your post, then I really pity you.

 

[flat five]

So Apple buying at bulk wholesale (or possibly making the case themselves) pays more than I do? Makes sense.

huh?

I don't think he said it was free, but regardless of what HE said, YOU said enclosures were cheaper than having a bigger case (clearly false) and I said that clearly the reverse was true.

....

First off, this was not the point. What you are presenting here is a STRAWMAN argument. The point was that YOU were incorrect when you said external enclosures were a cheaper alternative than having internal drives, this is clearly false and I'm not repeating the obvious reasons why.

the nifty thing about playing he said/she said on the interwebs is that you can go back and see what was actually said:

Back in my day, we could install up to 6 (yes, SIX) SATA drives without spending an additional nickel paying some company Apple made a deal with to sell TB controllers for.

Yep, that's right, we could choose to install 1 or 6 drives or anywhere in between, and just pay for the drives themselves. No external enclosures, sleep issues, TB cables or power supplies. Sounds like a fairy tale now but that's how it used to be.

so yeah, he accurately said that in the past, you did not spend additional money on the ability to add more drives.. but that does not mean that money wasn't spent on the enclosure in the first place.. because it was..

then i said:

you're out of your mind if you think you weren't paying for the the drive bays and connectors and large enclosure. i'd guess it's even more $ than a thunderbolt enclosure and cable will eventually cost..

there are 2 guesses in there: one is how much the old enclosure cost and the other is how much thunderbolt enclosures will eventually cost..

to put end user value amounts on these guesses:
over $200 more for the previously sized mp enclosure compared to the new one..

approx $200 for the eventual cost for a thunderbolt drive enclosure..


and yes, i do think those guesses are reasonably close.. but even if it ends up being only $100 in savings with the new smaller mp's enclosure and a thunderbolt drive array settles at $300-- it doesn't matter with regards to what the whole point of me saying anything about it in the first place -- that is -> internal expansion ability in the previous mac pro was not free

 

[tuxon86]

huh?





the nifty thing about playing he said/she said on the interwebs is that you can go back and see what was actually said:



so yeah, he accurately said that in the past, you did not spend additional money on the ability to add more drives.. but that does not mean that money wasn't spent on the enclosure in the first place.. because it was..

then i said:


there are 2 guesses in there: one is how much the old enclosure cost and the other is how much thunderbolt enclosures will eventually cost..

to put end user value amounts on these guesses:
over $200 more for the previously sized mp enclosure compared to the new one..

approx $200 for the eventual cost for a thunderbolt drive enclosure..


and yes, i do think those guesses are reasonably close.. but even if it ends up being only $100 in savings with the new smaller mp's enclosure and a thunderbolt drive array settles at $300-- it doesn't matter with regards to what the whole point of me saying anything about it in the first place -- that is -> internal expansion ability in the previous mac pro was not free

When you bought your MP did it come with the drive bays for four internal HDD and 2 ODD? Later on when you wanted to had a second, 3rd, 4th HDD did you have to spend $$$ for those drive bay? How much do you think those available bays added up on the cost of the MP? Have you compared that to the price of the Pegasus 4 drives TB enclosure? It's $1k for a 4TB enclosure + $30 for a TB cable to hook it up. Remove the price of the HDD, about $450.00, it is still $600.00 more than what you have to pay to add 4 HDD into your present MP.

Are you under the false impression that Apple will sell this nMP for less than the current MP??? If you do, you don't know Apple very well.

 

[flat five]

When you bought your MP did it come with the drive bays for four internal HDD and 2 ODD? Later on when you wanted to had a second, 3rd, 4th HDD did you have to spend $$$ for those drive bay? How much do you think those available bays added up on the cost of the MP? Have you compared that to the price of the Pegasus 4 drives TB enclosure? It's $1k for a 4TB enclosure + $30 for a TB cable to hook it up. Remove the price of the HDD, about $450.00, it is still $600.00 more than what you have to pay to add 4 HDD into your present MP.

haha.. okay.. this is getting retarded.. you're right- apple gave us internal expansion capability for free.. and the necessary form factor in order to accommodate internal storage didn't cost us anything.
you can quit arguing me about it because i see how wrong and stupid i am. thanks for pointing that out.

Are you under the false impression that Apple will sell this nMP for less than the current MP??? If you do, you don't know Apple very well.

no, i think it will be the same.. $3000
at least that's the amount i have set aside.. guessing at the amount is almost an exercise in futility seeing how will we all know the real costs in a matter of months

 

[tuxon86]

haha.. okay.. this is getting retarded.. you're right- apple gave us internal expansion capability for free.. and the necessary form factor in order to accommodate internal storage didn't cost us anything.
you can quit arguing me about it because i see how wrong and stupid i am. thanks for pointing that out.


no, i think it will be the same.. $3000
at least that's the amount i have set aside.. guessing at the amount is almost an exercise in futility seeing how will we all know the real costs in a matter of months

Expansion in the old MP was part of the base pricetag. You didn't have to pay an extra for it.

As presented the nMP will cost way more. The AMD Firepro w9000 cost $3,200.00 per card by themselves. There is two of them. The CPU is over $1k by itself. Apple charge for the PCIe SSD will aslo be through the roof.

So just for the two GPU and the CPU you are looking at a starting price of about $7.5k... Without the price of the rest of the components.

And to add 4 HDD you have to throw an extra $600 (or $1k for a 6 HDD).

How can you honestly say that you are making a good deal with the nMP?

 

[clamnectar]

This is the worst thread on the internet

 

[tuxon86]

This is the worst thread on the internet

Oh give it time... You haven't seen anything yet.
Think of it as the limbo dance of the internet... How low can you go...

 

[flat five]

So just for the two GPU and the CPU you are looking at a starting price of about $7.5k... Without the price of the rest of the components.

And to add 4 HDD you have to throw an extra $600 (or $1k for a 6 HDD).

How can you honestly say that you are making a good deal with the nMP?

if the new mac is $7500+, then i don't care how much external hard drives cost. there's no way i would by an $8000 computer.. i'll get a 2012 instead

 

[tuxon86]

if the new mac is $7500+, then i don't care how much external hard drives cost. there's no way i would by an $8000 computer.. i'll get a 2012 instead

Now you are finally catching on to what we have been telling you. As demonstrated, the nMP will end up costing more and giving you less (only one CPU and no cheaper internal expansion, for exemple).

Don't get me wrong, It's a terrific design! But I can't help feeling like it's missing the mark by a couple of mile. It doesn't offer the expendability like other workstation, and it may end up being to costly for the "prosumer" market...

 

[50548]

Now you are finally catching on to what we have been telling you. As demonstrated, the nMP will end up costing more and giving you less (only one CPU and no cheaper internal expansion, for exemple).

Don't get me wrong, It's a terrific design! But I can't help feeling like it's missing the mark by a couple of mile. It doesn't offer the expendability like other workstation, and it may end up being to costly for the "prosumer" market...

As if Apple did not have the economies of scale to greatly reduce the price of internal components for its new machines... Forget about off-the-shelf prices; they do NOT represent Apple's costs.

 

[mcnallym]

I wasn't attempting to be snide. I work with Firewalls where things are very black and white.

As such quite often I get things like

We need a new Web Server, can you allow access from the Internet with http.
I do this, they then come back and say we can't access the site.

What they have actually done is implemented a secure website and actually required https instead. Which apparently is then my fault for not knowing that they needed something different to what they told me they required.

As such at that point I have to start questioning what else they have told me is wrong about what they need, which is human nature.

Which is the point of the comment that I made at the end. No need to be so sensitive.

 

[GermanyChris]

I wasn't attempting to be snide. I work with Firewalls where things are very black and white.

As such quite often I get things like

We need a new Web Server, can you allow access from the Internet with http.
I do this, they then come back and say we can't access the site.

What they have actually done is implemented a secure website and actually required https instead. Which apparently is then my fault for not knowing that they needed something different to what they told me they required.

As such at that point I have to start questioning what else they have told me is wrong about what they need, which is human nature.

Which is the point of the comment that I made at the end. No need to be so sensitive.

you called someone wrong who was right then added a snide comment in an attempt to twist the knife. Now you're just trying to deflect.

You like black and white, you're wrong he's right so now your credibility is in question.

There are time where it's best to either sit back and watch the fight or verify before you throw a blow yourself.

 

[flat five]

Now you are finally catching on to what we have been telling you.

hmm.. i thought everyone is trying to tell me (no me in particular) how bad external storage is..

and my (and a lot of other people) take on that is that we like the idea of external storage.. to me, there's exactly one reason why it's better and that's because i use the drives inside my pro for my laptops as well.. and this requires firewiring the computers together and rebooting.. it will be way simpler to un-thunderbolt the drive from the pro then plug in to a laptop then viceversa..

you can argue me all you want about that but i don't see why you would want to.. surely you can understand that, all other things aside, it's a much more streamlined process to use 1+ drive with 2+ computers via thunderbolt instead of having the drives inside and (basically) permanently tied to a single computer.

literally-> i see an improvement in my day-to-day workflow simply by adopting an external storage mindset.. others may not feel the same. i get that.. i understand that.. and nowhere have you seen me saying 'oh, ur stupid and drinking yoo-hoo because you want internal storage'.. nowhere

i'm saying i like it.. i'm giving good reasons why i like it.. and that's that

i mean seriously.. if the new mac pro ends up being out of my price range and i have to buy a (now)old model, i can still foresee myself putting a thunderbolt controller on there and going to external.. and yes, i could of already done this in the past etc.. it's just that i haven't.. i haven't really even thought about it.
and this latest glass of kool-aid has made me think about it with a new mindset and do in fact see how external storage can benefit me in a day-to-day

As demonstrated, the nMP will end up costing more and giving you less (only one CPU and no cheaper internal expansion, for exemple).

see, i'm hoping they give you less but also give you more --- but for the same price.. less(zero) internal expansion and smaller form but more actual computational power..

if they don't hit that mark or come close to it then i won't buy it.. it's that simple.. i don't know if they have or haven't -- i'm saying my target price point and you're giving one 2.5x higher.. a huge difference and it's all based on basically, guesses.. and i'm just not going to spend too much time speculating and worrying about that now.

 

[tuxon86]

As if Apple did not have the economies of scale to greatly reduce the price of internal components for its new machines... Forget about off-the-shelf prices; they do NOT represent Apple's costs.

If they used standard PCB and component yes. But we are talking about a limited run new form factor component for the GPU and CPU board...

The Mac Pro doesn't produce enough sales to justify a big production of those parts.

 

[tuxon86]

hmm.. i thought everyone is trying to tell me (no me in particular) how bad external storage is..

and my (and a lot of other people) take on that is that we like the idea of external storage.. to me, there's exactly one reason why it's better and that's because i use the drives inside my pro for my laptops as well.. and this requires firewiring the computers together and rebooting.. it will be way simpler to un-thunderbolt the drive from the pro then plug in to a laptop then viceversa..

you can argue me all you want about that but i don't see why you would want to.. surely you can understand that, all other things aside, it's a much more streamlined process to use 1+ drive with 2+ computers via thunderbolt instead of having the drives inside and (basically) permanently tied to a single computer.

literally-> i see an improvement in my day-to-day workflow simply by adopting an external storage mindset.. others may not feel the same. i get that.. i understand that.. and nowhere have you seen me saying 'oh, ur stupid and drinking yoo-hoo because you want internal storage'.. nowhere

i'm saying i like it.. i'm giving good reasons why i like it.. and that's that

i mean seriously.. if the new mac pro ends up being out of my price range and i have to buy a (now)old model, i can still foresee myself putting a thunderbolt controller on there and going to external.. and yes, i could of already done this in the past etc.. it's just that i haven't.. i haven't really even thought about it.
and this latest glass of kool-aid has made me think about it with a new mindset and do in fact see how external storage can benefit me in a day-to-day




see, i'm hoping they give you less but also give you more --- but for the same price.. less(zero) internal expansion and smaller form but more actual computational power..

if they don't hit that mark or come close to it then i won't buy it.. it's that simple.. i don't know if they have or haven't -- i'm saying my target price point and you're giving one 2.5x higher.. a huge difference and it's all based on basically, guesses.. and i'm just not going to spend too much time speculating and worrying about that now.

I'll address the two bolded statements above:

1- You don't need TB to do that and you can still do that presently. Just buy a USB external drive and share your data between your MP and MB... If you don't want to use the internal bay yourself that's ok, but don't tell me it's a good thing for apple to remove them and deprive the rest of us of the addwed performance and convenience of internal drive bays! If internal bays aren't your thing then don't use them. You didn't pay an extra for them anyway, they came with the machine.

2- You won't get more computationnal power since the nMP, as presented, has only one CPU and a max of two GPU. A conventional workstation can have two CPU and multiple GPU (more than two) and more RAM.