Other This is why I will not buy iPhone 12: OLED = PWM

[cababah]

OLED in dark mode >>>>>>>>> any LCD panel.

 

[flur]

You’ll likely be fine. Most people seem to be. But if you encounter any problems with migraines or unusual eye strain, the Pro model may be an option.

My advice to you when you get the phone is to turn the attention aware feature off in the settings. That will keep the phone from regularly intermittently bombarding your face with IR light. Face ID seems safe, or I wouldn’t let my own kids use these phones, but it does give some of us dry eyes when constantly lighting up our face that way.

Turning that feature off will also help you be able to evaluate if the display itself is bothering you. If you’re fine then you can try turning it back on and next see if Attention Aware bothers you.

Most people use these displays and Attention Aware just fine, so don’t psych yourself out by anticipating a problem.

Those of us having problems are in the minority. Because it is such a rare and not very well discussed problem, we are just pooling information and getting a bit more understanding out there. But we are definitely not trying to scare people away from enjoying these beautiful phones!

This is really helpful. Thanks!

 

[eleite]

According to a review by notebookcheck.net, starting with iphone 11, PWM was not detected. A quote from the review, " If PWM was detected, an average of 17567 (minimum: 5 - maximum: 2500000) Hz was measured." This is well above where most sensitive users start to report fatigue like symptoms. I think it's reasonable to expect iphone 12 to meet or exceed these results.

 

[Chele]

According to a review by notebookcheck.net, starting with iphone 11, PWM was not detected. A quote from the review, " If PWM was detected, an average of 17567 (minimum: 5 - maximum: 2500000) Hz was measured." This is well above where most sensitive users start to report fatigue like symptoms. I think it's reasonable to expect iphone 12 to meet or exceed these results.

Just the iPhone 11 or the iPhone 11 line up? The iPhone 11 has a LCD screen, which is different than the OLED screen that all of the iPhone 12's have.

 

[eleite]

Just the iPhone 11 or the iPhone 11 line up? The iPhone 11 has a LCD screen, which is different than the OLED screen that all of the iPhone 12's have.

This is a completely valid point, and i'm starting to wonder about the relevancy of the review to this discussion. Looks like the reviewer was testing the iphone 11 6.1" with LCD.

 

[Dovahkiing]

This is the first I’ve ever heard of this issue. Checked my iPhone X with my wife’s iPhone on slo-mo and yep, it’s flicker city. I’ve literally never noticed in 3 years. I also just found out a lot of the led bulbs in my house are flickering too. Maybe that’s it for some people too? I’m sure some folks are hyper sensitive to this and I don’t doubt them, but you guys taking about class action lawsuits are nuts. This is not an issue that most of us are perceptually aware of.

 

[Howyalikdemapls]

.

 

[jm31828]

GAH!!! You’ve got to be kidding me!!!!! I specifically didn’t buy this phone because of PWM. I bought an 11 last year due to problems with iPhone X, and totally wanted to upgrade to the 12 Pro but decided it’s not worth risking the increase in headaches again. I pre-ordered one for my wife and it went sooo smooth that I considered purchasing another one because I could still get it launch day. I even added it to my basket and everything and then finally talked myself out of it because of headaches. I always get iPhones on launch day. I’m a bit of a dork that way but it brings me joy to get it and play with it when it first comes out. I think I’ve always got my iPhone on launch day going back to iPhone 4. I’m gonna be super bummed if I end up getting an iPhone 12 Pro in like December only to find out it doesn’t make my headaches worse when I coulda had it in October.

This comment on notebook check is about the iPhone 11-the non pro version that has lcd. There is no pwm in that model, but there is on the 11pro.

 

[Yebubbleman]

This is very interesting. I've definitely felt my eyes having to work a little harder during the few times that I've picked up an iPhone X/Xs/Xs Max/11 Pro/11 Pro Max. It looks nicer for sure, but I have always felt a very slight added strain. I never consciously put two and two together until now. I'm not talking about the low-light conditions, but just casually playing with one at an Apple Store. That's not insignificant, especially since Apple seems to have stopped producing new models of iPhone that don't have OLED (finishing with the 2nd Gen SE and the 11).

 

[Howyalikdemapls]

This comment on notebook check is about the iPhone 11-the non pro version that has lcd. There is no pwm in that model, but there is on the 11pro.

Haha I gotta learn to read, especially before making really dramatic responses 🤦🏻‍♂️😂

 

[dan98]

Oh I’m not wasting my time. There is a very small group of people trying to make this out to be a huge problem. I am not denying the problem exists, what I am saying is this seems to effect a very small amount of people, given the amount of people who own them. Many of the people who have problems have said the xs Max is the worst offender. I handed out my phone to over 30 people both friends and family and not one person had a problem with my phone other than it’s huge and difficult to one hand if you are a tiny person. Granted it’s not a large sample size, but none of them had seen an oled iPhone before and no one had a problem. So yes, I am sorry if it seems like I am picking on this group, but I am not.

Why are you trying to down-play the suffering and anxiety people are clearly facing?
Just because you and your friends have tried one phone and can't notice anything is a total irrelevance to me.
I have suffered with this for years, across all kinds of devices, and only fairly recently figured out what the problem is, only to be told by someone on the internet that I'm in such a 'tiny minority' that basically I should just shut up and deal with it?
I honestly can't figure out what your agenda is, and why you waste your time on an issue which is of absolutely zero consequence to you.

 

[Martius]

For me the combination of PWM and FaceID technology is a the only reason why I still use my 6s.

I'm really sensitive to PWM and I still don't feel it's ok to blast IR points to your face. I know IR light is everywhere, but I could really feel a discomfort when I was using Animoji for more than 10-20s, so it's definitely doing something to my face / eyes.

I know, you can turn off the attention aware feature off, not use animoji, but I would rather have an option for a Touch ID. It's secure enough, fast enough and safe enough.

 

[4sallypat]

Wow, can't believe there are complainers out here...

You young folks don't remember when original TVs (NTSC) was displayed at 29.97Hz ??
I was a motion picture camera technician and had to work with very slow rate refresh / flicker.

These new age displays all flicker - my work HD display is flickering at 48Hz, fluorescent lights in my garage flicker at 60Hz, my gaming monitor at home is 120Hz, my vehicle's LED tail light & brake lights flicker at 50Hz, and the iPhones I have are all flickering much faster that than where my eyes don't see any flicker.

Here's what I say:
If the flicker hurts, turn it off.
Get some proper glasses / eyewear correction.
Find out if you have epilepsy.
Take some drugs to slow your brain / eyes.

 

[orange23]

Wow, can't believe there are complainers out here...

You young folks don't remember when original TVs (NTSC) was displayed at 29.97Hz ??
I was a motion picture camera technician and had to work with very slow rate refresh / flicker.

These new age displays all flicker - my work HD display is flickering at 48Hz, fluorescent lights in my garage flicker at 60Hz, my gaming monitor at home is 120Hz, my vehicle's LED tail light & brake lights flicker at 50Hz, and the iPhones I have are all flickering much faster that than where my eyes don't see any flicker.

Here's what I say:
If the flicker hurts, turn it off.
Get some proper glasses / eyewear correction.
Find out if you have epilepsy.
Take some drugs to slow your brain / eyes.

You should go get a doctor degree before you pretend to be one....if this is so easy to resolve, why would so many people still get burned every year? You are either really stupid or really evil...enjoy your iPhone with your perfect eyes as our eyes health condition has NOTHING to do with you.

 

[evec]

Only SE 2020 you can get the whole traditional best thing -
the long life best color LCD without notch and the TouchID with return button.

Those best thing will come back in near future become a recycled new features for new era iPhone.

 

[orange23]

According to a review by notebookcheck.net, starting with iphone 11, PWM was not detected. A quote from the review, " If PWM was detected, an average of 17567 (minimum: 5 - maximum: 2500000) Hz was measured." This is well above where most sensitive users start to report fatigue like symptoms. I think it's reasonable to expect iphone 12 to meet or exceed these results.

very valid point and thank you! we can't change our eyes, but iphone 11 is ok so far.

 

[kazmac]

I went and looked at the specs of all the OLED displays that had bothered me and their typical maximum brightness was listed as 625 nits. Then for the 11Pro and now the 12 Pro that figure increased to 800. There’s also an HDR maximum brightness but that seems the same across all models that have that special listed at all.

I don’t know if that means anything or is a coincidence. But noticing the only spec difference between the less expensive models and the pro models was this one item, I was a bit concerned about what it might mean for pwm sensitive people. I can afford the Pro model so that’s the one I decided to try. I had a preference for the non pro models only because they’re lighter and the mini was more pocket friendly.

In this era of Covid I don’t particularly feel like messing around with returns so I just chose the one closest in specs to the model that already works for me.

This is very helpful.

Not liking the camera on the SE2020 and if the 12 have Qualcomm modems, that is another incentive (Hate the notch, but I may capitulate). There is Apple stuff I need before trying another iPhone, so I appreciate your perspective especially in thinking the brighter displays may circumvent PWM flickering.

Looking forward to hearing how you enjoy the 12 Pro. If I upgrade before next year, eye comfort comes first, better specs second.

 

[orange23]

That may be your definition of an 'extreme' minority based on your imaginary figures but the fact is many many people are complaining about this.
In addition it's not a binary thing.. while there are some who have an extreme reaction, there are others who just find it a vague irritation...maybe not even enough to identify why they don't feel good. Others again who are only bothered in certain situations, or after a period of time for example.
For sure, the flickering puts an extra strain on the brain but either way good for you that it doesn't seem to affect you...no need to waste your time on this thread.

perfectly said, those guys who jumped in and pretend to care while laughing should go away, ok, we are minority, so leave us alone and we will vote by NOT buying any OLED! SoRRY!

 

[dan98]

Wow, can't believe there are complainers out here...

You young folks don't remember when original TVs (NTSC) was displayed at 29.97Hz ??
I was a motion picture camera technician and had to work with very slow rate refresh / flicker.

These new age displays all flicker - my work HD display is flickering at 48Hz, fluorescent lights in my garage flicker at 60Hz, my gaming monitor at home is 120Hz, my vehicle's LED tail light & brake lights flicker at 50Hz, and the iPhones I have are all flickering much faster that than where my eyes don't see any flicker.

Here's what I say:
If the flicker hurts, turn it off.
Get some proper glasses / eyewear correction.
Find out if you have epilepsy.
Take some drugs to slow your brain / eyes.

Probably about the most technically ignorant and stupid post I've read in a while. And you say you were a camera technician? The mind boggles.
Just as you did, I grew up with 25/30 Hz television sets, and this flicker is nothing in comparison to that.
In addition you are confusing 'refresh rate' ie. 50/60/120Hz monitors with additional PWM strobe which is at a completely independent and additional frequency but causing intermodulation between the two.

As to your suggestions:

Here's what I say:
If the flicker hurts, turn it off.
- Turn off the phone. Thanks.

Get some proper glasses / eyewear correction.
- Absolutely nothing wrong with my eyes or glasses. 20/20 vision.

Find out if you have epilepsy.
- I don't.

Take some drugs to slow your brain / eyes.
- Your solution to PWM eyestrain...take drugs? OK I've heard it all now...

My suggestion to you: do some reading to find out *why* this bothers and upsets many people.
Oh, and don't forget, not everybody is *just like you*.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Oh man I hadn’t even thought about this but this is exactly the sort of thing that totally bothers my eyes.

I really hope they’ve done something to address this so I can upgrade from my SE1

 

[evec]

Wow, can't believe there are complainers out here...

You young folks don't remember when original TVs (NTSC) was displayed at 29.97Hz ??
I was a motion picture camera technician and had to work with very slow rate refresh / flicker.

These new age displays all flicker - my work HD display is flickering at 48Hz, fluorescent lights in my garage flicker at 60Hz, my gaming monitor at home is 120Hz, my vehicle's LED tail light & brake lights flicker at 50Hz, and the iPhones I have are all flickering much faster that than where my eyes don't see any flicker.

Here's what I say:t
If the flicker hurts, turn it off.
Get some proper glasses / eyewear correction.
Find out if you have epilepsy.
Take some drugs to slow your brain / eyes.

You talk is refresh rate, which is not directly relative to flicker, this only relative to smoothness.
In here flicker mean the stable of displays' light source.
Old style LCD use poor PWM for dimming, mean it may have worth flicking in low light, but today advantage dimming use high frequency and interval LED (shift each LED lighting time slightly) together with better light guide (plastic diffuser) make LCD lighting sources much stable. It all depend on backlight technology.

The OLED, unfountunately is all self-lighting cells, every pixel with her independent color illustrator with no light guide plate can be use, so that no interval balance can be use, you see the display like direct see so many many small flicking points of stars. Watching a OLED just like watching a lamp without "cover", it sure make human more easy tire.

more information: https://www.oled-info.com/pulse-width-modulation-pwm-oled-displays

 

[orange23]

I owned and used the XsMax for about 2 full days, if I remember correctly. I wasn’t completely without problems but my eye strain felt less bothersome than it did with my iPhone X that I owned for a month and returned. I really loved that phone and was so hopeful I’d be able to keep it. But I think it was on the third day that the seizure migraine got me. It can take some people quite a long while to start feeling and accurately identifying the source of their discomfort.

I do respect that nobody would appreciate the broad call for action against Apple that you’re reacting to. I think the majority of us who are sensitive to pwm and who wish to discuss it do not wish to sensationalize the subject or spread panic.

We want only to pool information so we can make smart purchases. It does help to get just enough attention on our plight to have manufacturers (and employers) acknowledge that the issue exists, so we can get access to acceptable alternatives and just go on like anybody else.

I just hope you can empathize with how scary it is for some of us to see our tried and true options like LCD become deprecated, possibly leaving some of us with nothing. This is not an imagined ailment. It’s not even technically an ailment. It is just another case of nature and technology not always meeting each other seamlessly. It is one complex system made by nature clashing with one made by man.

Some people who have had migraines in response to pwm had never had a serious health issue or even migraines at all. It took them awhile to narrow down their iPhone screens as a culprit.

I really like what you described. I owned nearly every generation of iPhone since the first release, and always picked the premium version until the OLED issue kicked in, I have to end up with iPhone 11 till today. My eyes can capture more colors than normal people and I have a gift in art like my mom.

 

[CheesePuff]

I wonder why the OP hasn't replied..

 

[T-Bob]

It is liklely the oleds still have PWM. Here is result of latest Samsung OLED on Note 20 Ultra:

The display backlight flickers at 245.1 Hz (Likely utilizing PWM) Flickering detected at a brightness setting of 99 % and below. There should be no flickering or PWM above this brightness setting.

The frequency of 245.1 Hz is relatively low, so sensitive users will likely notice flickering and experience eyestrain at the stated brightness setting and below.

Samsung Galaxy Note20 Ultra review - Smartphone with powerful features and S Pen included

We review the Samsung Galaxy Note20 Ultra 5G with the Exynos 990 SoC, 12 GB of RAM, and 256 GB of internal UFS 3.1 storage. The triple-camera setup convinces with a real optical zoom, but the battery life shows mediocre results.

www.notebookcheck.net

Screens are usually similar in Iphones (generally made by Samsung as well). The 11 Pro Max was measured at 245.1 Hz.

 

[TDDM]

It is liklely the oleds still have PWM

Yeah, there’s no doubt in my mind that the new models all have PWM. We’re just hoping for an increased Hz rate to make the screen bearable at this point.