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luisomtz

macrumors newbie
Dec 5, 2006
22
0
Mexico
Macs

I prefer computers made in Usa, but I dont have nothing wrong if it is made in china, all now is made there. I have a G4 iBook, and the only thing it has bad is it is loose from the case, but I hadnt never taked for a return. All except my other iBook, all my macs are made in usa.
 

e12a

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2006
1,881
0
just a question, but what computer (laptop or desktop) uses hardware that was fully assembled/manufactured in USA?

I'm not talking about the computer itself, rather, the hardware inside of one.

IBM assembled in China, Apple, Dell...
 

eXan

macrumors 601
Jan 10, 2005
4,738
134
Russia
It's not the Chinese workers' faults... it's Apple's fault.

Thats what I'm saying. It was Apple's choice to produce in China, it was Apple's instruction about how to apply that termal paste, etc.

Why did they move to China? Because it was cheaper. Why it was cheaper? You know, nothing is free nowadays :rolleyes:

Apple has focused more on quantity than quality.
 

jhu

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2004
854
1
Thats what I'm saying. It was Apple's choice to produce in China, it was Apple's instruction about how to apply that termal paste, etc.

Why did they move to China? Because it was cheaper. Why it was cheaper? You know, nothing is free nowadays :rolleyes:

Apple has focused more on quantity than quality.

i read in a business week article last year regarding business and manufacturing in china. the message from one manufacturing plant manager that the magazine talked to was the quality of a product can range depending on how much they were paid. basically, for a given defect rate, give them more money and they'll spend more time weeding out bad devices and vice versa.

so if quality seems to be down, it may be that apple isn't willing to spend more to weed out defects, and this has nothing to do with outsourcing manufacturing to china.
 

eXan

macrumors 601
Jan 10, 2005
4,738
134
Russia
i read in a business week article last year regarding business and manufacturing in china. the message from one manufacturing plant manager that the magazine talked to was the quality of a product can range depending on how much they were paid. basically, for a given defect rate, give them more money and they'll spend more time weeding out bad devices and vice versa.

so if quality seems to be down, it may be that apple isn't willing to spend more to weed out defects, and this has nothing to do with outsourcing manufacturing to china.

That proves once more that its all Apple's fault :)
 

EvryDayImShufln

macrumors 65816
Sep 18, 2006
1,094
1
How ridiculous is this conversation? It is not a racial comment to say that things made in china are CHEAP!!! It is neither one to say that things made in mexico are CHEAP!!!

All the volkswagons made in mexico were absolute pieces of trash, they would break down all over the place, catch fire, fall apart, anything you can imagine. It's not because mexicans are stupid or anything having to do with actual mexicans.

Just like in china, the labor and parts (mostly made in china as well im assuming) are cheap. Anyway I'm sure it mostly has to do with the parts, which are probably cheap themselves.

Nobody here can say things made in china aren't cheap. The jeans sold in North america, well there are fakes made over there for about 1 dollar each that look exactly like the real ones. Cheap labor is what it comes down to.
 

bearbo

macrumors 68000
Jul 20, 2006
1,858
0
How ridiculous is this conversation? It is not a racial comment to say that things made in china are CHEAP!!! It is neither one to say that things made in mexico are CHEAP!!!

All the volkswagons made in mexico were absolute pieces of trash, they would break down all over the place, catch fire, fall apart, anything you can imagine. It's not because mexicans are stupid or anything having to do with actual mexicans.

Just like in china, the labor and parts (mostly made in china as well im assuming) are cheap. Anyway I'm sure it mostly has to do with the parts, which are probably cheap themselves.

Nobody here can say things made in china aren't cheap. The jeans sold in North america, well there are fakes made over there for about 1 dollar each that look exactly like the real ones. Cheap labor is what it comes down to.

Thats what I'm saying. It was Apple's choice to produce in China, it was Apple's instruction about how to apply that termal paste, etc.

Why did they move to China? Because it was cheaper. Why it was cheaper? You know, nothing is free nowadays :rolleyes:

Apple has focused more on quantity than quality.

i have no problem of you saying products made in china are inexpensive, but i do take great personal offense if you even imply products made in china are of low quality. and "cheap" implies low quality.
 

NewSc2

macrumors 65816
Jun 4, 2005
1,044
2
New York, NY
i read in a business week article last year regarding business and manufacturing in china. the message from one manufacturing plant manager that the magazine talked to was the quality of a product can range depending on how much they were paid. basically, for a given defect rate, give them more money and they'll spend more time weeding out bad devices and vice versa.

so if quality seems to be down, it may be that apple isn't willing to spend more to weed out defects, and this has nothing to do with outsourcing manufacturing to china.

that is the case with some goods made in china, but not things that are mass produced, like iPods and Macs.

Basically, if you want to make a line of shirts in China, for $2/ea. @ 1000 pcs., you will probably get something that isn't very well made, and you have no say over the products (basically you use their fabrics, their screen printer, their thread, etc.).

If you're looking to support a whole entire factory, though, and you're buying shirts @ $2/ea, for 10,000,000 pcs., your shirts will be tailored however you choose. You can demand this type of fabric, a special color, etc.

This is what Apple's doing. They've basically partnered/invested in Foxconn or whatever other Chinese company to go out and "rent" their resources to make computers to whatever specification they want.

Anyway, do you really think putting a part over another part and screwing them together requires any sort of highly skilled labor? The most important parts of the laptop (case, LCD, chips, boards) are all machine-made. All the skilled labor is done in California (component tests, plastic analysis, etc.)

<-- importer
 

aristobrat

macrumors G5
Oct 14, 2005
12,292
1,403
does apple even design their own hardware anymore? the mac pro even uses a standard btx motherboard.
This is a MacBook Pro's logic board. I guessing it's not standard.
08.jpg
 

EvryDayImShufln

macrumors 65816
Sep 18, 2006
1,094
1
i have no problem of you saying products made in china are inexpensive, but i do take great personal offense if you even imply products made in china are of low quality. and "cheap" implies low quality.

Yes, I am saying most of them are cheap.

You should not be offended, it is reality. I'm not saying it's because chinese workers can't make proper products; on the contrary, I've heard they're very good at making tiny adjustments with their hands and are very precise (and most likely hardworking as well).

But the nature of most products that are built in china are cheap hence the association that if a company wants cheap labor chances are they aren't paying much for the parts that are being assembled by that labor.

Everything is made in china these days, all the little toys that used to be made in china were always the cheapest ones, but that is due to the nature of the manufacturers.

If you're going to pay alot for US labor you might as well pay for good parts as well.

Anyway this is just my logic, correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to make sense to me.
 

blitzkrieg79

macrumors 6502
Mar 9, 2005
422
0
currently USA
er... do i sense racial discrimination? just because workers in China aren't greedy doesn't mean they are incapable of build quality products.

there are way more high quality product built in China than anywhere else in this planet.

It's not racial discrimination, eversince I started to buy more electronics since the 1990s (time when most electronic comapnies started to shift production from Europe, USA, Japan to mostly China and Malaysia) the quality of products has degraded big time, my grandmother has a Sony TV (made in Japan in 1970's!!!) still working with a clear beautiful picture and it has never broken down. Currently none of my electronics last more then 3-4 years without at least something minor going wrong and I get a sense from a lot of reading that I am not the only one.

And what high quality product? Most of these 50 cent per day employees (who you call not greedy and I call them not having too much of a choice in a communist China where you need a government permission to go for a trip from city to city on their own soil) are away from big cities and lack proper education so the quality issue starts right there (and it has nothing to do with being lazy or not). Also I suspect that the actual quality of building materials has also decreased in order to make big bucks. Companies want you to replace TVs, DVDs, whatever, every few years to move the economy. Besides, it's funny how you called Chinese people less greedy than us and didn't mention that Apple is the greedy party. American companies are taking advantage of 3rd work countries cheap labor and cheap is exactly what they get as so do we.
 

EvryDayImShufln

macrumors 65816
Sep 18, 2006
1,094
1
Oh by the way, on the actual subject of this thread, I think PPC gets its ass handed to it on a platter by the intel chips.

I had bought and used a powerbook 1.67 15 inch, the fastest powerbook ever, to test it out (had bought it used for a ridiculously low price and resold it later). I found that it was incredibly slow at doing just about anything. But I liked the OS, so here I am with a C2D MBP 1 year later.

Is it just me or were those chips incredibly slow? I mean I had a 4 year old athlon xp 2200+ at the time and it completely demolished that powerbook, even with a worse videocard (I had radeon 8500 and I think the powerbook had 9700).

But then again I was gaming in OS X and that doesn't work as well as bootcamp, but still. I'm sure these machines are still very potent at many tasks, but gaming wasn't one of them and I don't think performance was their strong point either.
 

jhu

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2004
854
1
This is what Apple's doing. They've basically partnered/invested in Foxconn or whatever other Chinese company to go out and "rent" their resources to make computers to whatever specification they want.

Anyway, do you really think putting a part over another part and screwing them together requires any sort of highly skilled labor? The most important parts of the laptop (case, LCD, chips, boards) are all machine-made. All the skilled labor is done in California (component tests, plastic analysis, etc.)

<-- importer

there's also the issue of testing whether the parts you've slapped together actually work as intended together. the people over in china can do as little or as much as you want depending on how much you pay them.
 

Maxx Power

Cancelled
Apr 29, 2003
861
335
It's not racial discrimination, eversince I started to buy more electronics since the 1990s (time when most electronic comapnies started to shift production from Europe, USA, Japan to mostly China and Malaysia) the quality of products has degraded big time, my grandmother has a Sony TV (made in Japan in 1970's!!!) still working with a clear beautiful picture and it has never broken down. Currently none of my electronics last more then 3-4 years without at least something minor going wrong and I get a sense from a lot of reading that I am not the only one.

And what high quality product? Most of these 50 cent per day employees (who you call not greedy and I call them not having too much of a choice in a communist China where you need a government permission to go for a trip from city to city on their own soil) are away from big cities and lack proper education so the quality issue starts right there (and it has nothing to do with being lazy or not). Also I suspect that the actual quality of building materials has also decreased in order to make big bucks. Companies want you to replace TVs, DVDs, whatever, every few years to move the economy. Besides, it's funny how you called Chinese people less greedy than us and didn't mention that Apple is the greedy party. American companies are taking advantage of 3rd work countries cheap labor and cheap is exactly what they get as so do we.

And whose fault is it to have economic disparity and a military disparity to back it up in the first place ?

The fact that someone mentioned products specifically produced in China are shoddy is implying some type of racial dissent, since we all agree the fundamental problem is not the Chinese, but rather cost cutting and underpaid workers. The statement saying that products produced in China are automatically "bad" is a over generalization of problems and bundling them into the world "China". If one were indeed trying to state the problem clearly, it would be more like this "cheaper labour causes quality problems, in China or Malaysia, or even the USA" with no attempt to single out the Chinese as the soul bearers of the problem. Or we can do even better "greedy bastards in the states, like always, takes advantages of people who can't protect themselves any other way, to make cheap crap and sell them to idiots who buys them to get stinking rich to buy German cars." But this last one is obviously not neutral if interpreted by an American. Which is the same way some one of Asian descent would interpret the original statement regarding Chinese workmanship.

That the fact there exist correlation for cheaper labour implies lower quality products says nothing about rectifying the image of Chinese = Lower Quality Products. Besides, overtime, the management and marketers realized after learning a few lessons from failed industrialists that profit doesn't directly depend on quality of products, sure, if we take the number of competitors to infinity, then yes, profits will be a linear function of quality, etc. However, in the low competitors limit, where one company can successfully predict the moves of the other company using various techniques, market economy doesn't strictly obey the rules of free competition, which is the idealization of all so called "free markets".

The reason that quality of products, especially in electronics, degraded overtime, is also due to the perception of progressive improvement. That people have gotten used to better products in one way or another over time. That perception is used then to selectively invest in certain companies which makes them viable. Any company that fails to obtain this perception will fail shortly. Herein lies the problem, this perception becomes more and more costly to maintain and requires more and more manpower. So naturally, we take short cuts, in the amount of time testing, evaluating and developing products, and we lobby governing bodies and groups to lower previous constraints, or to develop in a direction not covered by previous constraints, like the ever bigger heatsinks and their requirement for new form-factors and bigger power supplies. This process is made much worse by imperfect "free market" competition, since we don't have enough competitors in most areas of consumer products, implying that one competitor can easily find out what the other competitor is up to, and gauge how much progress needs to be made, like in the CPU and GPU market, and thus they attempt to "out do" each other using whatever means possible, which, usually as it have been in the past, means lower reliability and quality products dressed in a outer shell that convinces the average buyer that infact, no degrading has happened, of course, until the end of the warranty period. This artificially inflated progress rate, is of course, sustained as long as we can get labour, resources, etc at a cheap rate. What you observed as a trend in products is a result of this shortcutting to use less to make more money, and when you combine cheaper labour in the form of people who will never even be able to afford the final product, nor would they need it, you have products designed not to last combined with workers with absolutely no will or desire to produce products using a higher workmanship and take any form of personal responsibility.
 

junkster

macrumors regular
Nov 6, 2006
128
1
I bought a C2D MB the day they were announced. So far, zero problems of any kind. It's fast, quiet, and is built well.
 

bearbo

macrumors 68000
Jul 20, 2006
1,858
0
And what high quality product? Most of these 50 cent per day employees (who you call not greedy and I call them not having too much of a choice in a communist China where you need a government permission to go for a trip from city to city on their own soil) are away from big cities and lack proper education so the quality issue starts right there (and it has nothing to do with being lazy or not). Also I suspect that the actual quality of building materials has also decreased in order to make big bucks. Companies want you to replace TVs, DVDs, whatever, every few years to move the economy. Besides, it's funny how you called Chinese people less greedy than us and didn't mention that Apple is the greedy party. American companies are taking advantage of 3rd work countries cheap labor and cheap is exactly what they get as so do we.

get your facts right. i absolutely cannot believe there are still ignorant people out there think that "you need a government permission to go for a trip from city to city on their own soil" that is absurd

also.. quality issues does NOT have anything to do with your education level. that's absurd comment number 2. just because you have Ph.D. does not mean you can assemble laptop better than someone who didn't go to elementary school, given you both understand the instruction (and yes, even those who didn't go to elementary school can understand the instruction perfectly fine.)

i think i'll stop here before your ignorance explode me
 

YS2003

macrumors 68020
Dec 24, 2004
2,138
0
Finally I have arrived.....
back on the thread subject....

I think this thread just got off the track as many posts are now about where Macs are made. Both PPC and Intel Macs are made in China (I think earlier PPC Macs were also made in TW as well).

Now, back on the thread.

My MBP is as reliable as my PBs so far. I have not found any annoying problem as of yet. I have a few annoyance with my iBook (which wakes up when I plug in the power to the outlet while is sleeping; it does not go to sleep even though I set up the time out in the energy saver setting, and etc).
I think Apple is also setting more intel Macs than PPC Macs over the period of a year. So, even if the defect ratio is 2 or 5 % (or any # for that matter), it appears intel Macs are more problem prone (as the total # of sales increase, the # of defects will increase even if the ratio is the same).
 

jhu

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2004
854
1
So I guess the answer to your question about "does Apple design its own hardware anymore" would be yes, right?

no, the answer would be "possibly", unless there really are motherboard/circuit board design teams within apple.

hmm... another question would be: do the other major manufacturers design their own hardware? ibm and hp do. how about dell?
 

Maxx Power

Cancelled
Apr 29, 2003
861
335
get your facts right. i absolutely cannot believe there are still ignorant people out there think that "you need a government permission to go for a trip from city to city on their own soil" that is absurd

also.. quality issues does NOT have anything to do with your education level. that's absurd comment number 2. just because you have Ph.D. does not mean you can assemble laptop better than someone who didn't go to elementary school, given you both understand the instruction (and yes, even those who didn't go to elementary school can understand the instruction perfectly fine.)

i think i'll stop here before your ignorance explode me

You are absolutely right. In China, you do not need a government permission to go for a trip from city to city. You'd think the chinese government is stricter since we all think that is the case with a "communist" government, but in so many ways, this is just not so. For one, the market is highly deregulated, so there are hundreds of cellphone competitors in the same city, who market better rates with services rather than compete on who can print the prettiest ads and bundle the latest phones; in China, you buy your own phone, its unlocked, and then you pick your carrier of choice, and they are all dirt cheap, even for the typical income of a chinese person, and look at where wireless communications have really taken off, and where the newest phones are developed and released to - Asia. In China, they have people who make knock-offs, with the quality of the Knock-offs better than the original, to the point where the new product released, after much anticipation, doesn't even stand up to the imitations. Samsung tried to hire some of these intelligent people to design their products, but they refused, since they can make a lot more money making knock-offs that people actually want to buy (products with no silly restrictions, think no features crippled).

Those who are interested, here is a quick interesting read:
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35974
 

bearbo

macrumors 68000
Jul 20, 2006
1,858
0
You are absolutely right. In China, you do not need a government permission to go for a trip from city to city. You'd think the chinese government is stricter since we all think that is the case with a "communist" government, but in so many ways, this is just not so. For one, the market is highly deregulated, so there are hundreds of cellphone competitors in the same city, who market better rates with services rather than compete on who can print the prettiest ads and bundle the latest phones; in China, you buy your own phone, its unlocked, and then you pick your carrier of choice, and they are all dirt cheap, even for the typical income of a chinese person, and look at where wireless communications have really taken off, and where the newest phones are developed and released to - Asia. In China, they have people who make knock-offs, with the quality of the Knock-offs better than the original, to the point where the new product released, after much anticipation, doesn't even stand up to the imitations. Samsung tried to hire some of these intelligent people to design their products, but they refused, since they can make a lot more money making knock-offs that people actually want to buy (products with no silly restrictions, think no features crippled).

Those who are interested, here is a quick interesting read:
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35974

oh yeah, not to mention... there are many more much better cell phones in china than in the US... better looking, smaller, better quality. at least in the cell phone industry US is of no comparison
 

dpaanlka

macrumors 601
Nov 16, 2004
4,869
34
Illinois
I ended up getting counterfeit iPod earbuds from China on eBay. They came in an obviously fake Apple box, with a fake Apple warranty booklet, and the earbuds themselves were very close, but sounded like crap, and broke eventually.

The seller claimed they were not Apple earbuds, and gave me some super foreign generic sounding name of the manufacturer. However, I could not find mention of this name anywhere on the product or it's packaging. It was all Apple logos, "Designed by Apple in California" etc... with a few spelling errors here and there.
 
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