This thread has been hijacked.

[blitzkrieg79]

get your facts right. i absolutely cannot believe there are still ignorant people out there think that "you need a government permission to go for a trip from city to city on their own soil" that is absurd

also.. quality issues does NOT have anything to do with your education level. that's absurd comment number 2. just because you have Ph.D. does not mean you can assemble laptop better than someone who didn't go to elementary school, given you both understand the instruction (and yes, even those who didn't go to elementary school can understand the instruction perfectly fine.)

i think i'll stop here before your ignorance explode me

Talking about ignorance, you are the one that called US workers "greedy" and forgot the fact that actually an average person in USA has a decent standard of life where in China you have about 50-60 million (which by the numbers seems like a lot but the population of China is over 1 billion people) of people living what I would call prosperous (mostly in large cities) and most of the country is corrupted and stealing ideas away from Japan and the west, they can't design anything for crap (just look at their magnetic trains (they actually purchased a model from germany and copied the s**t out of it and made it into public transportation), look at their cars (Cherry for example, straight out copying western designs, they even named one of their comapnies Roeve (after English Rover) with similar logo, however they are indeed very good at imitating.

The tactics they are using in the western world are pretty much illegal, here you would get sued over stuff like this, thing about communism is that no one gives a flying F about anything, I know because I come from ex-communist countries and I know how stuff works or rather how it doesn't work. Oh and those cell phones you are talking about, how many of them were actually designed from ground up by the Chinese? I would say probably zero as all they know how to do is copy and steal ideas away from other countries but the word innovation is foreign to them.

And oh yeah, tell me why so many people come in illegal containers some of them losing their lives just to come to US or any other western country? But oh yeah they have cool cell phones. I am not bashing the Chinese, just their government and lack of any kind of control.

 

[bearbo]

would you like to point out where and when did i call US workers greedy?
i think you watched too much movies falsely portraying life in China.
the entire post is just absurd. sorry, i'm not gonna waste time explaining how little sense you make.. and sorry this is off topic.

Talking about ignorance, you are the one that called US workers "greedy" and forgot the fact that actually an average person in USA has a decent standard of life where in China you have about 50-60 million (which by the numbers seems like a lot but the population of China is over 1 billion people) of people living what I would call prosperous (mostly in large cities) and most of the country is corrupted and stealing ideas away from Japan and the west, they can't design anything for crap (just look at their magnetic trains (they actually purchased a model from germany and copied the s**t out of it and made it into public transportation), look at their cars (Cherry for example, straight out copying western designs, they even named one of their comapnies Roeve (after English Rover) with similar logo, however they are indeed very good at imitating.

The tactics they are using in the western world are pretty much illegal, here you would get sued over stuff like this, thing about communism is that no one gives a flying F about anything, I know because I come from ex-communist countries and I know how stuff works or rather how it doesn't work. Oh and those cell phones you are talking about, how many of them were actually designed from ground up by the Chinese? I would say probably zero as all they know how to do is copy and steal ideas away from other countries but the word innovation is foreign to them.

And oh yeah, tell me why so many people come in illegal containers some of them losing their lives just to come to US or any other western country? But oh yeah they have cool cell phones. I am not bashing the Chinese, just their government and lack of any kind of control.

 

[dpaanlka]

and the rest of the post is just absurd. sorry, i'm not gonna waste time explaining how little sense you make.. and sorry this is off topic.

Well, he does have a point about the counterfeiting which you keep ignoring. There is no question a rampant counterfeiting problem exists in China. This discussion probably belongs in the political category though. I suggest a lock.

 

[CaptainCaveMann]

Talking about ignorance, you are the one that called US workers "greedy" and forgot the fact that actually an average person in USA has a decent standard of life where in China you have about 50-60 million (which by the numbers seems like a lot but the population of China is over 1 billion people) of people living what I would call prosperous (mostly in large cities) and most of the country is corrupted and stealing ideas away from Japan and the west, they can't design anything for crap (just look at their magnetic trains (they actually purchased a model from germany and copied the s**t out of it and made it into public transportation), look at their cars (Cherry for example, straight out copying western designs, they even named one of their comapnies Roeve (after English Rover) with similar logo, however they are indeed very good at imitating.

The tactics they are using in the western world are pretty much illegal, here you would get sued over stuff like this, thing about communism is that no one gives a flying F about anything, I know because I come from ex-communist countries and I know how stuff works or rather how it doesn't work. Oh and those cell phones you are talking about, how many of them were actually designed from ground up by the Chinese? I would say probably zero as all they know how to do is copy and steal ideas away from other countries but the word innovation is foreign to them.

And oh yeah, tell me why so many people come in illegal containers some of them losing their lives just to come to US or any other western country? But oh yeah they have cool cell phones. I am not bashing the Chinese, just their government and lack of any kind of control.

Thanks a lot, to everyone who hijacked and killed this thread.

 

[bearbo]

Well, he does have a point about the counterfeiting which you keep ignoring. There is no question a rampant counterfeiting problem exists in China. This discussion probably belongs in the political category though. I suggest a lock.

sure, there's counterfeiting, and it's bad... the reason i ignored it is that the post is largely composed of false exaggeration and degradation.

there are a number of things i think china as a nation can improve, corruption is the room of the problem, these i all agree, however i do not agree with the attitude that China is down there.

 

[SC68Cal]

my only complaint is that the x86 branch of OS X is less stable compared to the PowerPC builds that I used before.

 

[Maxx Power]

Talking about ignorance, you are the one that called US workers "greedy" and forgot the fact that actually an average person in USA has a decent standard of life where in China you have about 50-60 million (which by the numbers seems like a lot but the population of China is over 1 billion people) of people living what I would call prosperous (mostly in large cities) and most of the country is corrupted and stealing ideas away from Japan and the west, they can't design anything for crap (just look at their magnetic trains (they actually purchased a model from germany and copied the s**t out of it and made it into public transportation), look at their cars (Cherry for example, straight out copying western designs, they even named one of their comapnies Roeve (after English Rover) with similar logo, however they are indeed very good at imitating.

The tactics they are using in the western world are pretty much illegal, here you would get sued over stuff like this, thing about communism is that no one gives a flying F about anything, I know because I come from ex-communist countries and I know how stuff works or rather how it doesn't work. Oh and those cell phones you are talking about, how many of them were actually designed from ground up by the Chinese? I would say probably zero as all they know how to do is copy and steal ideas away from other countries but the word innovation is foreign to them.

And oh yeah, tell me why so many people come in illegal containers some of them losing their lives just to come to US or any other western country? But oh yeah they have cool cell phones. I am not bashing the Chinese, just their government and lack of any kind of control.

Once again, someone is rulering the East with norms of the West. Remember, counterfeiting is not illegal depending on what types of restrictions toward copying ideas there are, which are in place.

You also seem to suffer from the "second is better" phenomenon, whereby you come from a country to a place of difference and immediately identify what's wrong with the first. If you actually ventured into a third, different country, you'd identify what's wrong with this one too. It's a well studied psychological phenomenon, Pepsi has been using it for years for their taste testing ads.

The fact that you say the Chinese isn't capable of designing anything themselves is a big, big lie. If you actually went to China, you'd see for yourself. Have you looked at the corporate profiles of giants you know about in the west, making a killing selling things, take a look at how many of those have their R&D departments of ODM in China. 6 out of 7 laptop ODM's are in China, where they do the actual engineering and production after someone in marketing here dreams up of what to sell next and gives them a draft. Look at the US. tech industry, do you realize how many companies actively hire Chinese intellectuals because they are capable of high creativity in design and engineering ? It's so rampant that there are numerous ongoing processes to restructure our own education system akin theirs, in a desperate hope to get more of our own people hired in the high-up sectors. Have you even counted the number of students in universities graduating from Science and Engineering here in North America who are Chinese ? Then compare that number to the total number of students on campus and compare that ratio to number of Asian immigrants/citizens to the entire population, and you'll be very surprised - there is a preferential need for more Chinese knowledge workers in the industry and research sectors.

That the fact in China there is less money to spend on designing their own stuff shouldn't be equated with less ability. Talk about a word foreign to others, in the chinese language, the vocabulary is orders of magnitude larger than English, with many terms having no translation into english, because they are foreign to us.

Also, talk about corrupt, that is a relative term. In a country where election fraud is rampant and where governmental actions, even by so called "democratic" process is still questionable by the mass majority, I hardly think I need to say more. Here in the west, we've been finger pointing others for so long that now we are finally starting to dig up a bit of dirt on our selves, especially since the gradual downfall of our craptacular economy.

What does this have to do with PPC vs. Intel ? Those people who argue that Intel generation of Mac's brought us worse quality stuff because of the Chinese, that's just a very common and often talked about Mac version of Chinaphobia. The WallStreet Journal even talked about this specific attitude and warned investors and others how this very attitude can get us in a real mess. Its irrelevant what the difference is, or your prejudice is (government, colour, culture, etc), anyone can do anything and be proficient, not just white americans.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

would you like to point out where and when did i call US workers greedy?
i think you watched too much movies falsely portraying life in China.
the entire post is just absurd. sorry, i'm not gonna waste time explaining how little sense you make.. and sorry this is off topic.

Check out post #5 of this forum

er... do i sense racial discrimination? just because workers in China aren't greedy doesn't mean they are incapable of build quality products.

there are way more high quality product built in China than anywhere else in this planet.

Besides, all you do is complain and attack how absurd, ridiculous, and what else my posts are and yet you lack any serious prove otherwise and you ignore a lot of facts such as major counterfeiting going on in China (as in all communist countries where there simply is no control over piracy or copyright protection of anything). You admire Chinese people at how well they counterfeit things, jeeezzzz...

 

[bearbo]

Check out post #5 of this forum


Besides, all you do is complain and attack how absurd, ridiculous, and what else my posts are and yet you lack any serious prove otherwise and you ignore a lot of facts such as major counterfeiting going on in China (as in all communist countries where there simply is no control over piracy or copyright protection of anything). You admire Chinese people at how well they counterfeit things, jeeezzzz...

i said chinese workers aren't greedy, i did not make comparison, you did. maybe you should retake secondary education.

i'm not proud of the counterfeiting in china, however you seem to use that as the only thing chinese people know how to do, and from there condemning the entire nation.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

Once again, someone is rulering the East with norms of the West. Remember, counterfeiting is not illegal depending on what types of restrictions toward copying ideas there are, which are in place.

You also seem to suffer from the "second is better" phenomenon, whereby you come from a country to a place of difference and immediately identify what's wrong with the first. If you actually ventured into a third, different country, you'd identify what's wrong with this one too. It's a well studied psychological phenomenon, Pepsi has been using it for years for their taste testing ads.

The fact that you say the Chinese isn't capable of designing anything themselves is a big, big lie. If you actually went to China, you'd see for yourself. Have you looked at the corporate profiles of giants you know about in the west, making a killing selling things, take a look at how many of those have their R&D departments of ODM in China. 6 out of 7 laptop ODM's are in China, where they do the actual engineering and production after someone in marketing here dreams up of what to sell next and gives them a draft. Look at the US. tech industry, do you realize how many companies actively hire Chinese intellectuals because they are capable of high creativity in design and engineering ? It's so rampant that there are numerous ongoing processes to restructure our own education system akin theirs, in a desperate hope to get more of our own people hired in the high-up sectors. Have you even counted the number of students in universities graduating from Science and Engineering here in North America who are Chinese ? Then compare that number to the total number of students on campus and compare that ratio to number of Asian immigrants/citizens to the entire population, and you'll be very surprised - there is a preferential need for more Chinese knowledge workers in the industry and research sectors.

That the fact in China there is less money to spend on designing their own stuff shouldn't be equated with less ability. Talk about a word foreign to others, in the chinese language, the vocabulary is orders of magnitude larger than English, with many terms having no translation into english, because they are foreign to us.

Also, talk about corrupt, that is a relative term. In a country where election fraud is rampant and where governmental actions, even by so called "democratic" process is still questionable by the mass majority, I hardly think I need to say more. Here in the west, we've been finger pointing others for so long that now we are finally starting to dig up a bit of dirt on our selves, especially since the gradual downfall of our craptacular economy.

What does this have to do with PPC vs. Intel ? Those people who argue that Intel generation of Mac's brought us worse quality stuff because of the Chinese, that's just a very common and often talked about Mac version of Chinaphobia. The WallStreet Journal even talked about this specific attitude and warned investors and others how this very attitude can get us in a real mess. Its irrelevant what the difference is, or your prejudice is (government, colour, culture, etc), anyone can do anything and be proficient, not just white americans.

Gradual downfall of our craptacular economy began when the glorious Mr. Bush took over this country and decided to start his family war with Iraq (during Clinton era US had an actual surplus).

Second of all, I could care less how many more words the Chinese have when words such as computer, internet, car, airplane, telephone all came from the western world.

Third of all, you talk about Chinese R&D designs and I talk about how eversince companies started to switch manufacturing plants to Asia the quality of finished goods has decreased so maybe the Chinese R&D isn't that great either?

As far as % of students in USA, yeah I know there is a lot of Asians but there is also a lot of Europeans, African Americans, people from Arabic countries, and really none of them are any smarter then the others, it;s all just a matter of who is more disciplined and who actually has imagination and doesn't only memorize books.

 

[Maxx Power]

i said chinese workers aren't greedy, i did not make comparison, you did. maybe you should retake secondary education.

i'm not proud of the counterfeiting in china, however you seem to use that as the only thing chinese people know how to do, and from there condemning the entire nation.

Samsung is proud of the people who are making the better counterfeits (better than originals, how's that for innovation, even before the actual product is released)

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/7483/52/

 

[dpaanlka]

Gradual downfall of our craptacular economy began when the glorious Mr. Bush took over this country and decided to start his family war with Iraq (during Clinton era US had an actual surplus).

The "downfall" of our economy actually started at the end of the Clinton administration.

 

[Maxx Power]

Gradual downfall of our craptacular economy began when the glorious Mr. Bush took over this country and decided to start his family war with Iraq (during Clinton era US had an actual surplus).

Second of all, I could care less how many more words the Chinese have when words such as computer, internet, car, airplane, telephone all came from the western world.

Third of all, you talk about Chinese R&D designs and I talk about how eversince companies started to switch manufacturing plants to Asia the quality of finished goods has decreased so maybe the Chinese R&D isn't that great either?

As far as % of students in USA, yeah I know there is a lot of Asians but there is also a lot of Europeans, African Americans, people from Arabic countries, and really none of them are any smarter then the others, it;s all just a matter of who is more disciplined and who actually has imagination and doesn't only memorize books.

Regardless of what you think the actual downfall is because of, and when it did happen, it is happening.

Secondly, you seem to forget of the countless chinese proverbs we desperately translated ? Not to mention their cultural contribution in cuisine, martial arts, etc ?

Regarding the R&D, they don't get the final say in pricing, and all the time, competitive pricing forces substitutions for cheaper materials and rougher statistical studies on quality - all decisions made by the US consumers.

Of course there are other students of other origins in the US, but hey, if you want to compare that way, then everyone here is immigrants, and so are the Asian-Americans. Then why are the late generation immigrants getting proportionally more jobs higher up ?

Regardless of what your previous experience with a historically-communist country might have been, this is a different country, and you have to give credit where credit is due, especially if you never actually stepped a foot inside China.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

i said chinese workers aren't greedy, i did not make comparison, you did. maybe you should retake secondary education.

i'm not proud of the counterfeiting in china, however you seem to use that as the only thing chinese people know how to do, and from there condemning the entire nation.

I wasn't condemning the entire nation, just their government which I will say it loud and proud I think its crap. There is no control over counterfeiting in China which it all spreads all over the world, look at what RIAA is doing in US for downloading MP3s, I know people don't like it but I also wouldn't like if someone would steal my time spent on perfecting an idea and then selling it for peanuts. And that is a big problem in China considering that anyone can get counterfeits on ebay any place any time. However I understand why Chinese do it and it has to do with the fact that most people there are poor and they all want the same things we want, but again, it's partially the fault of their current government, partially because of their geographic location, and partially because of their history (most recently WWII).

 

[blitzkrieg79]

Regardless of what you think the actual downfall is because of, and when it did happen, it is happening.

Secondly, you seem to forget of the countless chinese proverbs we desperately translated ? Not to mention their cultural contribution in cuisine, martial arts, etc ?

Regarding the R&D, they don't get the final say in pricing, and all the time, competitive pricing forces substitutions for cheaper materials and rougher statistical studies on quality - all decisions made by the US consumers.

Of course there are other students of other origins in the US, but hey, if you want to compare that way, then everyone here is immigrants, and so are the Asian-Americans. Then why are the late generation immigrants getting proportionally more jobs higher up ?

Funny thing you mention cuisine as I had Chinese food on Friday and on Saturday I was puking the crap out of me with a nice case of food poisoning So I'll skip on their cuisine influence for a while. AGAIN, I am not downing the Chinese culture or the people, the only problem I have is with their current government and the way their system lacks any kind of copyright control. Everyone is sweating at the way Chinese economy is growing but if Western Europe or USA had no copyright laws and would copy everything from the Chinese who, lets say, would be the top economy in the world then the current economic trend would not be in favor of China, gotta remember that R&D of a given product is usually the most time/money consuming step of producing an actual good. The current US economy will not grow at the rate the Chinese is growing now (unless there is WW3 or some kind of once in a millenium breakthrough), but then again US economy after all said and done is still numero uno and China still can't compare to many western nations.

 

[bearbo]

Gradual downfall of our craptacular economy began when the glorious Mr. Bush took over this country and decided to start his family war with Iraq (during Clinton era US had an actual surplus).

psh

Second of all, I could care less how many more words the Chinese have when words such as computer, internet, car, airplane, telephone all came from the western world.

so now we are talking about who have invented more things? china or the rest of the world?

Chinese invented compass, fire powder, paper making, printing long before western countries

and then there are more

Third of all, you talk about Chinese R&D designs and I talk about how eversince companies started to switch manufacturing plants to Asia the quality of finished goods has decreased so maybe the Chinese R&D isn't that great either?

so when it works, it's chinese copying western, when it doesn't work it's chinese R&D isn't that great.
and shall i remind you manufacture and R&D are two processes?

As far as % of students in USA, yeah I know there is a lot of Asians but there is also a lot of Europeans, African Americans, people from Arabic countries, and really none of them are any smarter then the others, it;s all just a matter of who is more disciplined and who actually has imagination and doesn't only memorize books.

i believe his point is the %Asian in science and technology majors are much higher than %Asian everywhere else... which means, %everyone-else in science and technology majors are much lower than %everyone-else else where.

and no, Chinese students do much more than just being able to memorizing books.

 

[bearbo]

I wasn't condemning the entire nation, just their government which I will say it loud and proud I think its crap. There is no control over counterfeiting in China which it all spreads all over the world, look at what RIAA is doing in US for downloading MP3s, I know people don't like it but I also wouldn't like if someone would steal my time spent on perfecting an idea and then selling it for peanuts. And that is a big problem in China considering that anyone can get counterfeits on ebay any place any time. However I understand why Chinese do it and it has to do with the fact that most people there are poor and they all want the same things we want, but again, it's partially the fault of their current government, partially because of their geographic location, and partially because of their history (most recently WWII).

i think intellectual piracy in the US is just as bad as it is in China, or anywhere else in the world for that matter

i'm not condoning piracy, but to say it's because people are poor, and further more it's the government's fault? what about all the piracy in the US on software and music and movie? need i remind you of websites such as torretz.com, demonoid.com? oh does that mean that the US government is not enforcing any laws?

yes, i admit to a large extent that the chinese government is corrupted, and can take some improvement... how does that tie to the lack of imagination, as you put, of chinese people... further more, how is that related to manufacture quality of products produced in china?

Funny thing you mention cuisine as I had Chinese food on Friday and on Saturday I was puking the crap out of me with a nice case of food poisoning So I'll skip on their cuisine influence for a while. AGAIN, I am not downing the Chinese culture or the people, the only problem I have is with their current government and the way their system lacks any kind of copyright control. Everyone is sweating at the way Chinese economy is growing but if Western Europe or USA had no copyright laws and would copy everything from the Chinese who, lets say, would be the top economy in the world then the current economic trend would not be in favor of China, gotta remember that R&D of a given product is usually the most time/money consuming step of producing an actual good. The current US economy will not grow at the rate the Chinese is growing now (unless there is WW3 or some kind of once in a millenium breakthrough), but then again US economy after all said and done is still numero uno and China still can't compare to many western nations.

try another restaurant. taco bell just had green onion problem (or they think)..and the spinach ? as if when there is food poisoning in a chinese restaurant, it's the fault of chinese culture or chinese government...

i dont know how far you think can counterfeiting take you... but Chinese economy growing is not due to counterfeiting much if at all.

 

[Maxx Power]

Funny thing you mention cuisine as I had Chinese food on Friday and on Saturday I was puking the crap out of me with a nice case of food poisoning So I'll skip on their cuisine influence for a while. AGAIN, I am not downing the Chinese culture or the people, the only problem I have is with their current government and the way their system lacks any kind of copyright control. Everyone is sweating at the way Chinese economy is growing but if Western Europe or USA had no copyright laws and would copy everything from the Chinese who, lets say, would be the top economy in the world then the current economic trend would not be in favor of China, gotta remember that R&D of a given product is usually the most time/money consuming step of producing an actual good. The current US economy will not grow at the rate the Chinese is growing now (unless there is WW3 or some kind of once in a millenium breakthrough), but then again US economy after all said and done is still numero uno and China still can't compare to many western nations.

You can think what you want of other governments, but since you brought it up, you are highly critical of other people's governments with very little knowledge of them, all of what you know seem to be the negatives you read here on the web. And coming from a country with already poor judgment both at the government official level and the average voter level and a media system dominated by corporate propaganda, I'd say your criticism is in poor taste, approaching the hypocritical. We depend on the Chinese for any future gains, and we already depend on them as it is, how someone can knock them is beyond me.

I've seen plenty of people getting food poisoned at hotdog stands, once again, it's not the cultural difference. That would be racism. And, to make matters worse, some of the world's most famous illnesses came from the west - bubonic plaque, small pox, cholera (very cultural disease, people who have cystic fibrosis are resistant to it, and guess where the highest population of CF carriers are found - Western Europe), etc. So talk about hypocrisy. People are so ignorant of history these days.

One last thing "US is still numero uno"; famous last words.

 

[seanf]

I prefer computers made in Usa...

So it would make a real difference to you if Apple collected all of the components they use from manufacturers the World over and then assembled them in America rather than China? Assembling computers is a mundane, unskilled job. Workers will just follow the instructions regardless of their Nationality.

Sean

 

[FF_productions]

Is it just me or were those chips incredibly slow? I mean I had a 4 year old athlon xp 2200+ at the time and it completely demolished that powerbook, even with a worse videocard (I had radeon 8500 and I think the powerbook had 9700).

We all wish these PowerBooks had a G5 in em, but it just couldn't happen. I don't feel a huge difference between my previously owned G5 iMac/Dual PowerMac G4 and this PowerBook I'm typing on. I'll go Intel sooner or later, but I still have faith in PPC. It's quite speedy for me, and the fact that I can take this PB anywhere just makes the experience of editing video even better.

I've tried the MacBook Pro, and I haven't really felt a monster difference in performance, I'm sure it would help in rendering and other things but to me it doesn't feel like it's 7x faster than my PB.