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Tragedy of the clueless
- Thread starter StoneJack
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I'm shocked to find out year in and year out that my station wagon has not become a pickup truck, even though both have the ability to move people and things, I can't believe I bought this thing thinking it will evolve like a pokemon.
You can have kinda hit the nail on the head.
Given what Apple wants the iPad to be they should stop selling all iPads over $1000. The value over $1000 isn't there and it just sets expectations that will not be met.
Obviously this is a joke but it is one of the main reasons folks get so twisted by iPad Pro. The hardware is advanced, the price is high, but because of iPadOS the value isn't there for most Pro buyers.
A customer can spend £9000 on a Fiat 500 or £35,000 on a Fiat 500e EV. Niether is an F1 car but its nice to have the option.
There are millions of people doing their Phds and running their businesses with it. There are millions of artists doing amazing work with it. If you're unproductive with it it's your fault.
Please paragraph and capitalize your posts properly so that we can read it and answer it well. It's very difficult when it's big chunk of lower case words that looked randomly spewed out of an LLM.
And they would be just as productive with a cheap Android tablet from a Chinese company. Well maybe not the artists.
You’re talking about people doing very basic tasks. Even if their work is advanced, the tasks they do on their iPads are extremely basic. They can easily do the same tasks with a Samsung or Xiaomi.
But they also get access to a real filesystem, going around the biggest limitation of iPadOS. And better multitasking. The $400-700 Android devices are now pretty good and are doing things that the $1000+ iPad Pro still can’t. Or rather, won’t.
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Man, all these people saying I can't be productive on an iPad. Starting to think I'm doing something wrong? How am I productive on this thing?
In all seriousness - an iPad is just a different kind of computer. If it works for you, great, if it doesn't, they're still making Macs.
In all seriousness - an iPad is just a different kind of computer. If it works for you, great, if it doesn't, they're still making Macs.
iPad Pro is a great piece of hardware but iPadOS limitations don’t justify that price point. At least, not for me.
The core dilemma is very straightforward:
The iPad Pro hardware is absolutely top of the line, and in line with baseline MacBooks — same chips, good screens — with a modular ecosystem, stylus, and touch support.
The iPad OS and software, however, is built with arbitrary and deliberate limitations which, among other things, prevent the iPad Pro from fully using it’s hardware as it would if it were a general purpose computer. Instead, it is designed to be an appliance, like a thin client, or like a games console, or like an old-school PDA (ie, a palm pilot).
With most general purpose computers, you can install and run arbitrary software. More importantly, you can build software to run on the computer on the computer itself using interpreters or compilers or emulators.
iPad OS cannot do that, by design. Or rather, it can do that — the hardware certainly permits it, although probably the battery life would not be great — but Apple does not permit anybody other than them to do it (ie, UTM and JIT compilation) and, more to the point, Apple actually goes to great lengths to prevent anyone from using these machines in that way through the OS as it is coded, the inability to run any OS on the hardware but their cryptographically blessed OS, and their chokehold on what they call “sideloading” — which is to say, installing software through any mechanism but the one they gatekeep.
People who don’t need their computing devices to use features which contravene Apple’s arbitrary limitations are perfectly happy with the iPad. Those which do want or need features which are not permitted by Apple are told to use other products instead.
Apple has chosen not to build a general purpose computer which can use a stylus or with touch capabilities. Telling people who want an Apple general purpose computing device with stylus and touch capabilities to “just use a Mac” is missing the whole point. Apple builds hardware for such a machine, but refuses to put an OS which supports that use case on that hardware. It’s pretty irritating. It’s their choice, but that doesn’t make it less of a frustration for those of us who want such a thing.
Is this a niche use case? Apparently? But it’s also not one that doesn’t exist. 2-in-1 laptops and chromebooks have existed for years. The Surface tablets exist. Samsung DeX is a thing that exists. All of these provide the kind of general purpose computer with stylus and touch that I would like Apple to provide, and which they simply refuse to.
I am allowed to be frustrated by this gap in their product lineup that I fall into, even if you don’t care about it.
IMHO, anyway.
The iPad Pro hardware is absolutely top of the line, and in line with baseline MacBooks — same chips, good screens — with a modular ecosystem, stylus, and touch support.
The iPad OS and software, however, is built with arbitrary and deliberate limitations which, among other things, prevent the iPad Pro from fully using it’s hardware as it would if it were a general purpose computer. Instead, it is designed to be an appliance, like a thin client, or like a games console, or like an old-school PDA (ie, a palm pilot).
With most general purpose computers, you can install and run arbitrary software. More importantly, you can build software to run on the computer on the computer itself using interpreters or compilers or emulators.
iPad OS cannot do that, by design. Or rather, it can do that — the hardware certainly permits it, although probably the battery life would not be great — but Apple does not permit anybody other than them to do it (ie, UTM and JIT compilation) and, more to the point, Apple actually goes to great lengths to prevent anyone from using these machines in that way through the OS as it is coded, the inability to run any OS on the hardware but their cryptographically blessed OS, and their chokehold on what they call “sideloading” — which is to say, installing software through any mechanism but the one they gatekeep.
People who don’t need their computing devices to use features which contravene Apple’s arbitrary limitations are perfectly happy with the iPad. Those which do want or need features which are not permitted by Apple are told to use other products instead.
Apple has chosen not to build a general purpose computer which can use a stylus or with touch capabilities. Telling people who want an Apple general purpose computing device with stylus and touch capabilities to “just use a Mac” is missing the whole point. Apple builds hardware for such a machine, but refuses to put an OS which supports that use case on that hardware. It’s pretty irritating. It’s their choice, but that doesn’t make it less of a frustration for those of us who want such a thing.
Is this a niche use case? Apparently? But it’s also not one that doesn’t exist. 2-in-1 laptops and chromebooks have existed for years. The Surface tablets exist. Samsung DeX is a thing that exists. All of these provide the kind of general purpose computer with stylus and touch that I would like Apple to provide, and which they simply refuse to.
I am allowed to be frustrated by this gap in their product lineup that I fall into, even if you don’t care about it.
IMHO, anyway.
Agree on all points.
Apple still has an edge in reliability, predictability, and battery life, at least in laptops and iPads. I got burned enough times by Windows laptops to never trust the claimed specs, especially on battery life. My work Surface Pro was supposed to have “up to 16 hrs” battery life. It would at best be good for 3-3.5 hours of moderate use, and typically drops below 50% after an hour long Teams meeting. My new Dell XPS has been overheating and I returned it and finally bought an MBA, because I was tired of playing lottery with $1,600+ hardware.
But, I am also getting frustrated with paying premium prices for premium hardware held back by OS.
Nonsense. If you have a basic workflow that you can do on an iPad, great. But there are lots of more complicated workflows that are either frustratingly clunky or downright undoable on an iPad for others.
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Android tablets might be good spec wise but they lack some good app.
I need Affinity to do my stuff on the tablet, I do everything on iPad only, I couldn’t do the same on Android cause their app are lacking ( developer fault I guess)
I don’t consider what o do with iPad as basic, as I do everything work and entertainment relate on iPad only.
Android are doing something iPad can’t, iPad can do something android can’t.
While it’s not for everyone, value is there, this is why I pick an iPad over a Mac.
You can also do the same thing you do on a Mac on a Pc, yet people preference buying Macs here, your argument should apply to pc as well.
Android phones do the same and even more than iPhones, a 300€ Android does the same thing as a 1200 iPhone, why pick the more expensive option?
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But they favour iPads. Go figure.
There's nothing basic about studying for a Phd, studying at Uni or earning a living as an artist. Anyone speaking like that has no credibility or respect.
You buy the right device for the right task. The iPad physically isn't suitable for whatever you are talking about regardless of the software.
It's tablet not a workstation.
It's a tablet. Not a NASA control center.
It's a tablet not a server rendering farm.
Ooops letting too much slip there. Are you saying there is a campaign going on this forum to convince iPad users they should be able to boot "any OS" on their iPads? How far does that go? Linux? Windows? oooooh I think I see where this is going and where it is coming from.
For basic things, it’s a great device. And for a long time, Android lagged behind.
I completed a dual Masters in Engineering and Business using first an Android tablet and later an iPad (as supplemental devices).
When I am saying that the iPad is great for basic tasks, I am talking from experience.
It’s great for taking notes, recording lectures, and marking up PDFs.
It sucks for working with Excel, Word or PowerPoint beyond very basic level. It sucks when you need to combine data from multiple sources in a single document. It sucks for running many online applications such as calculation suites or tests. It absolutely sucks for any kind of file management, and this was the case even when I switched to an iPad, at the time when Android lagged behind overall. It had practically no multitasking then, and it still has very little multitasking ability now.
Anyone continuously resorting to personal attacks to prove their point, like you’ve been doing throughout this thread, lacks any credibility or respect.
True. It all depends on use case.
In other words, you need an iPad for something that it actually is better at (photo processing or graphic design). This still doesn’t invalidate the point that it lags behind in other areas, despite having a superior hardware. Developer fault I guess. Or rather, a deliberate strategy.
And it does. I use both, and PC allows me to be more productive in the things that I do. However, Apple has superior hardware. So for the basic tasks I do in personal life that require a laptop, I chose a Mac because at least I expect it to last and have a good battery life. I am not a big fan of OS, though, outside of visual design.
That’s a question that I keep asking myself. Although I’d likely end up with a $700-900 Android if I went that route.
I received a cheap basic Samsung phone when I changed providers. Its price brand new is under $300. Yet, it has split screen multitasking (on a phone!), a true filesystem, and the camera - despite lacking the advanced auto processing of more expensive phones - has a dedicated telephoto lens, and more importantly, doesn’t **** the bed in even the slightest backlight situations like my iPhone does.
If all I had to choose was a phone and a tablet, I’d likely be going back to Android now. As far as the overall ecosystem goes, though, Apple still has an edge, because Windows integration with Androids is still lagging behind. But, it is getting better, with DEX and PhoneLink. At this point, the main thing that prevents me from switching is the fear of playing the Windows laptop lottery.
Apple doesn't want to take the training wheels off of iPadOS because they don't want to give up the lock-in of needing iCloud storage, apps with the App Store tax stamp, etc., to effectively use the device.
It baffles me why anybody would buy a "Pro" device that is so limited. It's best use case is as a Wacom Cintiq replacement, but only if you can live with the training wheels apps that Apple allows in the store.
It baffles me why anybody would buy a "Pro" device that is so limited. It's best use case is as a Wacom Cintiq replacement, but only if you can live with the training wheels apps that Apple allows in the store.
out of curiosity, looked through features of Mac OS 7 and 8 (Copland), released in 1991 and 1998.
MacOS 7 offered
And yes, these Macs with such a weak hardware (2 MB of RAM on CPU with 16 MHz speed) run MacOS with computing functions, which are STILL are not available on iPad Pros M4. How much Apple regressed in last decades so thats its latest OS for tablets with most powerful ARM CPUs can't run what Macs of 1992 could do easily?? Just looked about how to install a font in iPad. The convoluted process takes 15 steps using a third party app. On a 1992 Mac with Mac OS 7, that would be just one step of putting a font into a Fonts folder.
MacOS 7 offered
- Aliases – small files that represent another object in the file system. Similar in concept to Unix symbolic links and Windows shortcuts, an alias in System 7 acts as a redirect to any object in the file system, such as a document, an application, a folder, a hard disk, a network share or removable medium or a printer.
- Drag and drop – document icons can be dragged with the mouse and "dropped" onto application icons to open in the targeted application. System 7.5's Drag Manager expanded the concept system-wide to include multiple data types such as text or audio data.
- Stationery, allowing users to save often-used document styles as a template. "Stationery-aware" applications create a new, untitled file containing the template data.
- Balloon Help, a widget-identification system similar to tooltips.
- AppleScript, a scripting language for automating tasks.
- AppleEvents, a new interprocess communication model for "high-level" events to be sent to applications, including support for AppleEvents over an AppleTalk network.
- Publish and Subscribe permits data "published" by one application to be imported by another.
- TrueType outline fonts, replacing bitmapped fonts and outline PostScript printer fonts. TrueType for the first time offers a single font format that scales to any size on screen and on paper.
- A newly colorized user interface, for machines that support color.
- A hierarchical Apple menu (folders within the Apple Menu Items folder would expand into submenus showing their contents. Again, based on a third party control panel; HAM by Microseeds publishing[19])
- System-wide drag & drop for text and other data (selections can be simply dragged with the mouse and dropped to their new destination, bypassing the clipboard)
- A scriptable Finder
- Customization of system fonts and increased use of the user-set accent color.
- Pop-up context menus, accessed via ctrl-click with a one-button mouse.
- Pop-up (or tabbed) windows in the Finder.
- Spring-loaded folders (folders that open automatically when a file is positioned on the folder).
- Live scrolling.
- WindowShade widget in window titlebars (minimization of windows).
- Multithreaded Finder — file copy operations run in a separate thread and don't block the Finder UI.
- Simple Finder, an option which reduces Finder menus to basic operations, to avoid overwhelming new users.
- Relocation of the 'Help' menu from an icon at the right end of the menu bar to a standard textual menu positioned after the application's menus.
- A faster Apple Guide, featuring HTML help pages.
- Faster desktop rebuilding.
| Introduction Date: | September 14, 1992 | Discontinued Date: | October 18, 1993 |
| Processor Speed: | 16 MHz | Processor Type: | 68030 |
| Details: | This model has a 32-bit processor. It has a 16-bit data path. |
| Processor Upgrade: | N/A | FPU: | None* |
| Details: | *This model has a proprietary internal expansion slot designed for an FPU co-processor, but Apple never released one. |
| System Bus Speed: | 16 MHz | Cache Bus Speed: | N/A |
| ROM Type: | Macintosh ROM | ROM Size: | 512k |
| L1 Cache: | 0.5k | L2 Cache: | N/A |
| RAM Type: | 30-pin SIMM | Min. RAM Speed: | 100 ns |
| Standard RAM: | 2 MB | Maximum RAM: | 10 MB |
| Details: | N/A |
And yes, these Macs with such a weak hardware (2 MB of RAM on CPU with 16 MHz speed) run MacOS with computing functions, which are STILL are not available on iPad Pros M4. How much Apple regressed in last decades so thats its latest OS for tablets with most powerful ARM CPUs can't run what Macs of 1992 could do easily?? Just looked about how to install a font in iPad. The convoluted process takes 15 steps using a third party app. On a 1992 Mac with Mac OS 7, that would be just one step of putting a font into a Fonts folder.
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I’m really not sure why you think what I said was some kind of gotcha.
I was stating a fact: on a MacBook, I can install a third party operating system, on an iPad, I can’t.
That was all I was saying there.
Don't bother, he's just a troll.
Apple is protecting their MacBook sales by not adding too much functionality to the iPad (even though the hardware allows it), and protecting their iPad sales by not adding a touchscreen to the MacBook.
This strategy works fine as long as the competition is nonexistent.
You just answered yourself, this is why people pick an iPad and not an android tablet, you even use other stuff but go back to Apple.
ecosystem, better hardware, battery life and their need are fulfilled by iPad os and not android…
I mean, sales number an customer retention means they have not lost the plot.
iPad is not for you, we get it, but for many of us it is a MEGA machine.
Yes it does depends on use cases, iPad have more use cases than Android tablets, Apple has the right strategy, and it works for them as well as they do not cannibalize their laptop sales, it’s a win win, not a device for everyone, I don’t think it was ever intended as such.
the iPad was designed to be between Mac and iPhone, and it still sits there, for some it became the main device, for other is useless, but the strategy is working exactly as expected.
ps for my usage it doesn’t lack as you suggest, I changed my workflow because it is a tablet and not a computer and it took time yes, but it works wonders.
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I think that we are just all tired of Apple’s being ambiguous with what is an iPad.
If they just said which iPad’s limitations they will keep for philosophical reasons, fine, we’ll just have to accept if for what it is.
Instead they keep implying that it will become more, 1st with the ‘what’s a computer’ ad then by bringing a trackpad, external monitor support, ‘pro’ app, giving us the M4, a MagicKeyboard which feels ‘just like a MacBook’.
Sure they never straight out promised us anything, but all of it really feels like implied promises.
And instead of either clarifying what are the limits for the iPad they won’t cross or on the contrary surprising us with an overhaul, they just keep throwing super tiny improvements year after year.
The M4 year might even actually even be the 1st year in a while we don’t get anything that improves the iPad as a pro device.
And then they are also all the ****** limitations that are unjustifiable even if they don’t want to push it forward.
Even if we accept that an iPad won’t ever do more than what it does today, it should also do what it’s supposed to do properly, not with a buggy file app, no multiple audio sources, etc.
And that’s not even mentioning the ridiculous bugs that have been here for at least a year, like the share icon on safari going on the wrong place, the trackpad cursor stuck on an icon etc. I had at least 2 of these bugs on my first day with the M4. I’ve been using an iPad as my main personal computer for about 7 years now so I’m used to that, but I can’t imagine how someone who just spent 1K5 USD on a top of the line iPad for the 1st line must feel.
Anytime I finish a paragraph I think of another stupid limitation of this OS. Like how do we have a mute key on the new MagicKeyboard but instead of actually muting it just turns the volume to 0? Sure that was not planned before this keyboard, but why has it not been addressed in iPadOS18?
If they just said which iPad’s limitations they will keep for philosophical reasons, fine, we’ll just have to accept if for what it is.
Instead they keep implying that it will become more, 1st with the ‘what’s a computer’ ad then by bringing a trackpad, external monitor support, ‘pro’ app, giving us the M4, a MagicKeyboard which feels ‘just like a MacBook’.
Sure they never straight out promised us anything, but all of it really feels like implied promises.
And instead of either clarifying what are the limits for the iPad they won’t cross or on the contrary surprising us with an overhaul, they just keep throwing super tiny improvements year after year.
The M4 year might even actually even be the 1st year in a while we don’t get anything that improves the iPad as a pro device.
And then they are also all the ****** limitations that are unjustifiable even if they don’t want to push it forward.
Even if we accept that an iPad won’t ever do more than what it does today, it should also do what it’s supposed to do properly, not with a buggy file app, no multiple audio sources, etc.
And that’s not even mentioning the ridiculous bugs that have been here for at least a year, like the share icon on safari going on the wrong place, the trackpad cursor stuck on an icon etc. I had at least 2 of these bugs on my first day with the M4. I’ve been using an iPad as my main personal computer for about 7 years now so I’m used to that, but I can’t imagine how someone who just spent 1K5 USD on a top of the line iPad for the 1st line must feel.
Anytime I finish a paragraph I think of another stupid limitation of this OS. Like how do we have a mute key on the new MagicKeyboard but instead of actually muting it just turns the volume to 0? Sure that was not planned before this keyboard, but why has it not been addressed in iPadOS18?
Except I was referring to Windows vs Mac.
Androids tend to have better battery life, from my observations. About half the people I work with have one.
Can’t comment on hardware reliability since I haven’t really used an Android phone or tablet in years.
There’s lots of people who are buying iPhones because everyone they know are on FaceTime and use Airpods. I am not saying that Apple is going to lose market share overnight.
However, in my field, I’ve been seeing more and more Androids over the past five-six years. In the office, in the meetings etc. Quite a few people I’ve known and worked with for years switched over to the “dark” side.
Oh, iPad is still good enough for me. A basic one. I will just never again pay an extra penny for the “pro” version that is so severely limited.
Well, give it time.
Apple just stopped innovating in the software/ user experience space.
Split-screen multitasking ? A cheap Android phone has it, but a $1000 iPhone doesn’t.
Always-on display ? Ditto. Folding screen ? Nah. A phone with a built in pen ? Nope.
Maybe their devices “just work” ? Not anymore, if they ever did. Lots and lots of bugs and poor design choices. Pretty crappy cameras in the $1000 “base” models. They flare like crazy. The typical answer is “well just upgrade to the Pro”… as if that “base” model wasn’t priced at “pro” level when compared to the competition.
Oh, and then there’s iCloud… A poorly implemented sync service that seems to be primarily designed for upsell and lock-in.
I still like the ecosystem - but it’s no longer an undisputed best choice. It’s stagnated just long enough for me to start looking at the alternatives.
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All of the items people are referring to as the pain points in iPadOS are OS shortcomings and have nothing to do with the physical device.