Ubuntu Edge - Dual Booting Beast

[AndersINorr]

Its nothing about anger or envy. If you were not clearly planted here by Ubuntu edge in order to try and drum up business like some snake oil salesman you would know that many of us here spend plenty of money on technology each year. What we don't do is try and make out a non existent product is anything but a risky gamble for anyone pledging on it, we have more respect for other people and their own financial circumstances without trying to make them sign up to something that may end up being non existent.

I'm not working for Canonical, Ubuntu or Ubuntu Edge. I'm not even living in the same country. And there is not affiliation program that people can earn money from. All I want is for the envisioned device to come true. And while I have not been active in these forums, I have been a frequent lurker since Apple moved to Intel for their computers. (My PC is an old Core Duo Mac Mini that will have to retire soon since it's only 32-bit, unfortunately it keeps on working great and I have not got the heart to retire it)

And the difference here with the Edge compared with most other crowd funding projects is that the people behind it has really tried to make it less risky for the pledgers than what is normal. And that was what really won me over.

I read somewhere that 50% of successful crowdfunding projects never ship what was promised. Mostly due to unexpected costs that no one will cover. Here Canonical (the company behind Unbuntu) and Mark Shuttleworth (the founder of Ubuntu, and worth around 500 million dollars) has gone out and said that if the project is successfully funded, they will pay any additional costs that may come. Of cause, you have to weigh the risk that this company and this person might try to cheat you or not. Personally I think that if this thing goes sour then Canonical/Ubuntu can not survive, since no one will ever give them any money.
And should you believe them, then they have also given a 28 days period to return the phone for a full refund. So if they produce the phone, you can compare it with the promised specs and return it if it doesn't match.

And yes, there is always a risk buying something before it is shipped. But you have to weigh the risk with what you could gain. In this case you get a very high end phone, aimed at having more RAM and storage that other phones 2014, aimed at having the fasted processor available this spring, with sapphire glass display today only used in luxery phones, etc. And all of that for a price less than most of the main brands mass produced top models. If this phone was made and sold by Apple, Samsung, HTC, Nokia or Sony, with their normal profit margins, it would have a much higher price.

And the vision that this device would enable is to bring true and useful convergence between phone and desktop computer. In order to get that working good enough the phone have to be very powerful. Eventually the "normal" phones will catch up, but not for another year or two. Today the software is at beta stage, and can be run on some of today's phones like the Nexus 4. But those phones are a bit too restricted for running two OS:es at the same time, it will not be a mass market thing yet. Canonical/Ubuntu is not doing this to earn money selling phones. They are doing this to prove that their software is working and is usable. This is their way of breaking into the phone market.

 

[MRU]

I'm not working for Canonical, Ubuntu or Ubuntu Edge.

So you just signed up to this forum to post about this product as a pure co-incidence.....

 

[AndersINorr]

So you just signed up to this forum to post about this product as a pure co-incidence.....

I signed up to be able to post, yes. It is required to sign up before posting. As opposed to reading. Reading does not require signing up.

I did not start this thread. I just felt that I had something to contribute to this specific thread.

And unlike you I only post if I have something to contribute

 

[Aonoa]

So you just signed up to this forum to post about this product as a pure co-incidence.....

If you really want to, you can go to the indiegogo Ubuntu Edge page, and see which Canonical members are signed up for it. Anders here is not among them, and my account here is two years old even if I don't use it much.

Though, to me it kind of seems like you're just grasping for any kind of excuse you can to put the Ubuntu Edge project in a negative light.

 

[MRU]

Though, to me it kind of seems like you're just grasping for any kind of excuse you can to put the Ubuntu Edge project in a negative light.

On the contrary as an 'idea' its a great concept.

As a commercial proposition however, there are too many variables and unknowns to put it anywhere outside of the potential 'vapour ware' category.

No proven history with mobile devices,
no previous history with producing hardware,
no proven history with achieving manufacturing deadlines,
no proven history of logistics or distribution,
no firm specifications that are solid to cling onto etc...

That's not a negative light, that's just putting the device in a realistic light and not pretending that it is anything other than what it is.

Also being cautious about spending $700 is not a bad thing, if something has real genuine commercial potential it should not need to find backing in this way.

Sure you both can take a gamble, but to post things like 'sign up soon' 'start backing' and 'if you miss it you'll have to buy it for more on ebay' is the type of vicarious nonsense that I more protest to on the forum especially coming from newbies - which imho adds a further layer of suspicion to your 'over promotion' of a device that could end up being the vapour ware device of 2014.....

There is a saying if its too good to be true, often it is.

 

[Aonoa]

I guess you did not, or would not support Oculus Rift either, then. It began as a crowd funding project, with a new company. Now they have the likes of John Carmack aboard. Crowd funding is all about controlling your own future together with the help of the fans of your project, rather than taking orders from investors or big publishers. I like that kind of project, but I guess you do not. The crowd becomes the investors.

 

[MRU]

I guess you did not, or would not support Oculus Rift either, then. It began as a crowd funding project, with a new company. Now they have the likes of John Carmack aboard. Crowd funding is all about controlling your own future together with the help of the fans of your project, rather than taking orders from investors or big publishers. I like that kind of project, but I guess you do not. The crowd becomes the investors.

So the riding on the potential success of the rift (which is still only in developer versions - far from commercially ready) suddenly legitimises this venture or makes the 'unknowns' suddenly magically disappear ?

Those kind of arguments for the legitimacy of a product based on another product that at least had real specifications and prototype hardware is the kind of bad sales technique that forms the basis of many pyramid schemes and rouge product selling ....

 

[Aonoa]

So the riding on the potential success of the rift (which is still only in developer versions - far from commercially ready) suddenly legitimises this venture or makes the 'unknowns' suddenly magically disappear ?

Those kind of arguments for the legitimacy of a product based on another product that at least had real specifications and prototype hardware is the kind of bad sales technique that forms the basis of many pyramid schemes and rouge product selling ....

Your list of "complaints" regarding no proven history etc, could be applied to practically all crowd funding projects. That is why I brought it up (random example), it seemed as if you'd just dismiss any crowd funding project solely for the lack of prior proof of success. I was just wondering if this was a generic view of yours on all projects.

Besides that, it is not Canonical themselves that are building the actual hardware. That's in the hands of existing experienced smartphone manufacturers which they are working with.

 

[MRU]

Your list of "complaints" regarding no proven history etc, could be applied to practically all crowd funding projects. That is why I brought it up, it seemed as if you'd just dismiss any crowd funding project solely for the lack of prior proof of success.

Besides that, it is not Canonical themselves that are building the actual hardware. That's in the hands of existing experienced smartphone manufacturers which they are working with.

Then if the product is a commercially viable product why did canonical simply team up with one of the major smartphone manufacturers to bring it to market than trying to generate $32,000,000 by crowd sourcing.

Is it simply a case that no major smartphone maker was willing to invest / gamble with canonical's vision or see it being a commercially viable product - that it's easier to garner investment from technology enthusiasts directly.

Whilst there is nothing wrong with that approach, it still leaves a lot of unknown questions that folks would be correct to ask of someone asking for a $700 investment.

Basically I wish canonical success, but my argument was not against the product but against the manner in which newbies have taken over a thread with very pro rhetoric and pressure selling techniques to get folks here to go over and invest. Blatantly ignoring or failing to acknowledge the unknowns and the fact that this is a gamble.

Quite simply state your case, but don't tell people 'sign up now'... 'Its gonna be more expensive if you wait' kind of nonsense.


Akin to 'would you like to invest $700 in a phone that does everything. We can't give you exact details or anything yet, we just want a pledge of $700, if you don't give us it now it'll cost you more later, oh go on, go on, go on....'

I have nothing more to add to this discussion, so that's it.

 

[Aonoa]

Then if the product is a commercially viable product why did canonical simply team up with one of the major smartphone manufacturers to bring it to market than trying to generate $32,000,000 by crowd sourcing.

Is it simply a case that no major smartphone maker was willing to invest / gamble with canonical's vision or see it being a commercially viable product - that it's easier to garner investment from technology enthusiasts directly.

Whilst there is nothing wrong with that approach, it still leaves a lot of unknown questions that folks would be correct to ask of someone asking for a $700 investment.

Basically I wish canonical success, but my argument was not against the product but against the manner in which newbies have taken over a thread with very pro rhetoric and pressure selling techniques to get folks here to go over and invest. Blatantly ignoring or failing to acknowledge the unknowns and the fact that this is a gamble.

Quite simply state your case, but don't tell people 'sign up now'... 'Its gonna be more expensive if you wait' kind of nonsense.

I have nothing more to add to this discussion, so that's it.

Haven't you read about this? It is true as you suggest, the smartphone manufacturers did not think that such a powerful/high spec smartphone was anything people wanted. This however has been stated by Canonical and known from the start. As the project progressed and gained funding from the people, the manufacturers began believing and Canonical could both lower the price and remove the limit of only producing 40k smartphones due to the manufacturers giving more support.

 

[Technarchy]

I feel like I have to step back and explain things with simpler word.

This phone, the Ubuntu Edge, is a device that comes with two different phone OS:es. Most people will no doubt use it with Android, but for the adventurous there is also Ubuntu Touch, which is a phone OS version of Ubuntu (in the same way that IOS is a phone version of OSX).

Regardless of which of the two OS:es the user has picked, the amazing thing with the Edge is that it also comes with a full desktop OS, Ubuntu, that can be used at the same time. That's right - with out rebooting the phone. Just dock the phone to an external screen and start working. Attach an external keyboard and mouse, or use the phones screen as touchpad and keyboard. The desktop OS can naturally still use the phone functions like calling, texting, address book, calendar etc.

This would be similar to having an iPhone that is also shipped with OSX and can run IOS apps at the same time as OSX programs.

This is what the Edge is about. Convergence. The phone IS your desktop computer too. For most people it would mean that you don't need to lug a big laptop with you as long as you intend to do you work where there is a stationary screen. And there are already portable screens with built in batteries for those that need to work on the go occasional. This is going to be the future.

This campaign wants to show the phone industry that this is something that people want.

Apple has chosen to stay with the two device approach. Bring a phone and a laptop with you. Microsoft has chosen to adapt the desktop OS so that it will work with a touch screen most but not all of the time, but still you should buy a phone and a separate Surface.

Here you will get a phone small enough to be a great phone, but with power enough as a desktop for most people.

So your words about Android making Ubuntu redundant are quite the opposite from the truth. What Android is lacking today is Ubuntu

Which feeds right back into what I said prior...there is still no demand outside of some very dedicated enclaves or tinkerers, IT pros, and hardcore computing enthusiasts.

It's a Trojan horse. Ubuntu is not enticing or broadly appealing, so android is being used as a hook.

And this is neither convergence or the future. It's silly in fact and a throwback to decade old style thinking.

For one android alone it's powerful enough to do everything you mentioned without Ubuntu, and your premise that "Apple has chosen to stay with the two device approach. Bring a phone and a laptop with you" is painfully flawed because your concept requires cradles and mice and docking stations and portable monitors and external storage. It's a mess riddled with compromise.

It's old school and antiquated because in the age of the cloud and wireless interfaces data is always where you need it and increasingly platform agnostic so you can carry a phone only half the time yet all the content is automatically on your more powerful PC or tablet when needed.

 

[Jessica Lares]

If Ubuntu is now paying to advertise their campaign, then the deal is just one huge scam. Celebrity tweets? Come on.

You know, when people see something on the front of The Verge, TechCrunch, The Next Web, etc, they have no problem sparing some money to fund projects, but this is just ridiculous. And not even Ubuntu users are wanting it.

A $700 investment is a lot to spare for the average user. You can't just throw that away in order to get something in 9+ months. By that time, we're going to have Windows Phone 9, a developer preview of iOS 8 around the corner, and Android 5. Most of these are just going to end up sitting on eBay for YEARS.

 

[Technarchy]

If Ubuntu is now paying to advertise their campaign, then the deal is just one huge scam. Celebrity tweets? Come on.

You know, when people see something on the front of The Verge, TechCrunch, The Next Web, etc, they have no problem sparing some money to fund projects, but this is just ridiculous. And not even Ubuntu users are wanting it.

A $700 investment is a lot to spare for the average user. You can't just throw that away in order to get something in 9+ months. By that time, we're going to have Windows Phone 9, a developer preview of iOS 8 around the corner, and Android 5. Most of these are just going to end up sitting on eBay for YEARS.

In a world awash with venture capitalist with deep pockets looking for the latest and greatest, I'm willing the wager the financials have already been picked over 10 times over and the consensus is this project faces insurmountable hurdles for all the reasons you stated and then some.

 

[MRU]

In a world awash with venture capitalist with deep pockets looking for the latest and greatest, I'm willing the wager the financials have already been picked over 10 times over and the consensus is this project faces insurmountable hurdles for all the reasons you stated and then some.

Exactly this... Which is what I was saying too.

Common sense would indicate if this was viable, it would be made so without need for crowd sourcing.

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A $700 investment is a lot to spare for the average user. You can't just throw that away in order to get something in 9+ months. By that time, we're going to have Windows Phone 9, a developer preview of iOS 8 around the corner, and Android 5. Most of these are just going to end up sitting on eBay for YEARS.

Yep.. Just what I was saying too




I mean forgive my cynicism of new posters who posts sound like a sales brochure, but we all remember those newbies that signed up at time of the S4 etc... Where are they now ? Signing up to a mac forum to only post about 1 thing that clearly isn't mac related ..... Mmmmm

 

[Aonoa]

It seems my time and energy is better spent elsewhere.

 

[AndersINorr]

If Ubuntu is now paying to advertise their campaign, then the deal is just one huge scam. Celebrity tweets? Come on.

Now this shows expert skills in belittling people.

Making up an accusation (that I do assume that you have no proof of) and then adding an IF in front.

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Which feeds right back into what I said prior...there is still no demand outside of some very dedicated enclaves or tinkerers, IT pros, and hardcore computing enthusiasts.

I am an IT pro. There are 100 millions of us world wide. Most of us have a computer and a smartphone today.

I can not use cloud storage, since most clients forbid it. I have to carry my laptop home, back to work and to my clients location, even though all those places have plenty of external screens.

For one android alone it's powerful enough to do everything you mentioned without Ubuntu, and your premise that "Apple has chosen to stay with the two device approach. .

I have two Android phones now. How do I install Libre Office, Open Office or any other full word processor with SVG capability? How do I install Eclipse?

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It seems my time and energy is better spent elsewhere.

I agree. Lets leave the guardians of the establishment to admire each other

 

[Technarchy]

Now this shows expert skills in belittling people.

Making up an accusation (that I do assume that you have no proof of) and then adding an IF in front.

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I am an IT pro. There are 100 millions of us world wide. Most of us have a computer and a smartphone today.

I can not use cloud storage, since most clients forbid it. I have to carry my laptop home, back to work and to my clients location, even though all those places have plenty of external screens.



I have two Android phones now. How do I install Libre Office, Open Office or any other full word processor with SVG capability? How do I install Eclipse?

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I agree. Lets leave the guardians of the establishment to admire each other

1. So? That's exactly what I said already. This demo hasn't made ubuntu palatable since 2004, and it wont now in the even more cutthroat mobile market.

2. Until the day there is no "external screen" and you show up unprepared for work/presentation/productivity. Bad planning, and bad prep, so prepare to fail.

3. All of which which have no touch or small screen optimization. Good luck with that. Anyone that runs a remote desktop on their phone knows trying to use full office functions via touch and small screens really sucks. A native thick client wont be any better unless it's designed to be. There's a reason Pages for iOS is different than Pages for OSX.


Whatever you are imagining in your head, it's not going to work even remotely close in the real world where time, dollars, and patience are in short supply.

As "Lets leave the guardians of the establishment to admire each other" this type of talk has done little to progress Linux pass niche status. I've made several linux boxes through the years, and always end up back and Windows, and now OSX for numerous reasons.

 

[MRU]

It seems my time and energy is better spent elsewhere.

I agree. Lets leave the guardians of the establishment to admire each other

Which only serves to prove my point/assertion that both of you were only here to promote / sell this product to the users of this forum, rather than have any genuine interest in anything else on MacRumors forum in general.

 

[AndersINorr]

Which only serves to prove my point/assertion that both of you were only here to promote / sell this product to the users of this forum, rather than have any genuine interest in anything else on MacRumors forum in general.

This thread was about the Ubuntu Edge. I was super excited to discuss the Ubuntu Edge. And I do realize that I may have come on a bit too strong. But that's ok, if someone would like to discuss things it would make things more interesting.

Unfortunately several users came along to spend a lot of their anger and frustration on false personal speculations about me (no I did not start the thread and no I don't work for Ubuntu), false logical assertions (like there is no market for the device except for IT professionals, which happens to be a huge market, or that Android can do anything Ubuntu or any other desktop OS can do - no it can't it is not meant to), lies about Ubuntu paying people to write in forums and twitter, and a general unpleasant atmosphere. You know who you are.

I have spent time on this site reading the news and browsing the forum topics every week for almost 10 years. Now that I have met some people here I will stay away. You have only proved one thing and that is that you personal charm and attitude can scare people away.

There used to be a company that had adds that said "Think differently". They made products that were not main stream at that time. I wish that people like you could dare to think differently, and not be instantly intimidated when someone else have found a shiny new toy that may or may not be better than yours. I'm sad for you.

 

[MRU]

There used to be a company that had adds that said "Think differently". They made products that were not main stream at that time. I wish that people like you could dare to think differently, and not be instantly intimidated when someone else have found a shiny new toy that may or may not be better than yours. I'm sad for you.

That attempt at being clever would have worked better had it not been for the fact were in the 'alternatives' forum where most of us are using 'alternatives' and are therefore indeed 'thinking differently'.

What you actually seem to want is people to 'think like you'... Which is not the same thing.

 

[jamezr]

This thread was about the Ubuntu Edge. I was super excited to discuss the Ubuntu Edge. And I do realize that I may have come on a bit too strong. But that's ok, if someone would like to discuss things it would make things more interesting.

Unfortunately several users came along to spend a lot of their anger and frustration on false personal speculations about me (no I did not start the thread and no I don't work for Ubuntu), false logical assertions (like there is no market for the device except for IT professionals, which happens to be a huge market, or that Android can do anything Ubuntu or any other desktop OS can do - no it can't it is not meant to), lies about Ubuntu paying people to write in forums and twitter, and a general unpleasant atmosphere. You know who you are.

I have spent time on this site reading the news and browsing the forum topics every week for almost 10 years. Now that I have met some people here I will stay away. You have only proved one thing and that is that you personal charm and attitude can scare people away.

There used to be a company that had adds that said "Think differently". They made products that were not main stream at that time. I wish that people like you could dare to think differently, and not be instantly intimidated when someone else have found a shiny new toy that may or may not be better than yours. I'm sad for you.

commented that i would love to have this phone. On the surface it has feature phone specs. From drawing board to a mass produced product is a very very large undertaking. Asking everyday phone enthusiast to pre pay for something that may never happen is really extreme.
The whole desktop on a phone has been done before with not so good results....
Does everyone remember the Moto Atrix and the phone dock? Never really worked...then when in use you lost the functionality of the phone to make calls while you worked....or to make a voice call while using the phone as a desktop device. I know I had the Atrix with the phone dock........after the initial few times the novelty wore off and the limitations made it hard to use. You still had to carry the phone dock around.
With the Ubuntu Edge you still have to dock (monitor and keyboard) it somewhere to use the desktop function. Then once it is docked...can you make voice calls with work while using the desktop version of Ubuntu? The desktop functionality is going to be desired by only a very small percentage of the IT geeks like us.........That might be why the venture capitol folks have stayed away. It is a very niche feature.

 

[bigpoppamac31]

This thread was about the Ubuntu Edge. I was super excited to discuss the Ubuntu Edge. And I do realize that I may have come on a bit too strong. But that's ok, if someone would like to discuss things it would make things more interesting.

Unfortunately several users came along to spend a lot of their anger and frustration on false personal speculations about me (no I did not start the thread and no I don't work for Ubuntu), false logical assertions (like there is no market for the device except for IT professionals, which happens to be a huge market, or that Android can do anything Ubuntu or any other desktop OS can do - no it can't it is not meant to), lies about Ubuntu paying people to write in forums and twitter, and a general unpleasant atmosphere. You know who you are.

I have spent time on this site reading the news and browsing the forum topics every week for almost 10 years. Now that I have met some people here I will stay away. You have only proved one thing and that is that you personal charm and attitude can scare people away.

There used to be a company that had adds that said "Think differently". They made products that were not main stream at that time. I wish that people like you could dare to think differently, and not be instantly intimidated when someone else have found a shiny new toy that may or may not be better than yours. I'm sad for you.

Agreed! Apple used to "think different" but not so much anymore. In some small ways they still do but not like they used to. In their quest to make products for the masses they've abandoned the fans/users that brought them to the dance. Those users who stuck by them in the 90's when they were losing ground to Microsoft. Even though I've used Apple products all my life I think this Ubuntu thing is pretty cool. I hope it does well. Would be cool if iPhone could dual boot into Android like you can boot up Windows on your Mac. You could get the best of both worlds.