Does a better FaceTime camera make people look better or worse?
lol that cant fix ugly...
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Waiting for 2021 MBP
- Thread starter littlepud
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lol that cant fix ugly...
They do say one very important thing in the video: an ARM MacBook Pro (or any ARM Macbook) will not get released without being announced a very long time in advance. I would be surprised if there is less than an entire year between them saying the words "ARM Macbook" and the device actually shipping.
"Very long time" is subjective. I don't expect it to be any different that the PowerPC to Intel switch. Announced in June 2005, iMacs shipped in January, MacBook Pros in late February, early March.
I don't think it's that different really. The only real difference here is that the switch is being made to an in house part and not another third party supplied part. x86 being faster than PPC at the time doesn't really matter as we don't yet know how these ARM chips will compare. Those pro apps haven't run on the desktop ARM chips Apple is making. We don't know what emulation/port solutions Apple may provide to developers and so on. We have speculation but we don't know much about their performance yet.
As much as it sounds like this is what i'm saying, i'm not saying the rollout will go exactly the same, because it's a different era in tech than 14 years ago, but i don't think it'll be drastically different either. Mostly all the same variables, challenges and risks involved in a transition of this scale are at play here just as they were then. I agree though 3rd party software support for ARM may take a while, but i'm saying that's not going to stop Apple from putting a bunch of the ARM Macs out in quick succession in anyway.
If anything them doing that would get the software developers to want to port quicker i would think, if the whole lineup goes ARM in a relatively short time (1-2 years or whatever) if the whole ARM ecosystem is there. Compared to them having one or two models and not feeling the urgency. There's no reason to take 5 years to switch the product lineup one by one. I think they should do it quickly like they did the PPC to Intel change and provide as much support to developers to port as they can to make the software side of the transition happen as quickly and easily as possible. Whether it's just throwing money at developers, providing some kind of program that helps ease the porting or who knows. They have the resources to do it. The part that will take a couple years is how fast the actual users upgrade from their Intel machines to the ARM machines.
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The complexity is different this time, compared to 15 years ago. Back then, developers had to make sure their apps were written in Xcode. Many of the popular apps, like Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop, were written in Metrowerks. This caused a lot of hearburn and apps like this took quite a bit of time to bring over to Xcode. There was also the whole Carbon vs. Cocoa issue, where Carbon apps took a lot longer to port than Cocoa apps. Apple has been slowly laying the groundwork for this. So in my mind, the recompiling of apps for ARM shouldn't be as tedious as the PowerPC to Intel switch was.
Hah. Yep, got a lot of use out of it and STILL going. I’ve decided that I’m going to hold out this year, unless it dies on me, and pick up next year’s model.
If I had bought a 2018 model, there’s no way I’d be updating this soon. I’d put up with that keyboard for a while.
I’m waiting to see what’s discussed at WWDC before making any moves. Want to see if anything is mentioned with ARM. I probably can’t swing a new 16” MBP purchase next year, but may be able to with a new 14” MBP. Or I may simply ride with this 2018 model until there is some really compelling advancement made with the ARM models, or after any initial bugs/kinks.
Some chipset scenarios. TDP targets: 13" / 14" - APU is around 28W, 16" - CPU at 45W and GPU at 50W.
Apple's clockspeeds get a ~15% uplift from the move to TSMC 5. They are clocked to their thermal capacity at all times. AMD and Intel use clockspeeds similar to current gen processors. Note: some rumors claim Cezanne will use TSMC 5, and others claim Intel will debut a 10nm Tiger Lake part at 45W. I did not give Intel or AMD the advantage of these hyper-competitive predictions, but keep them in mind.
Analysis: The smaller Apple notebook is extremely competitive. It comfortably fits 8 high performance cores. Apple can also afford dedicated high speed memory for their GPU, which their competitors cannot. Intel and AMD's offerings here are no slouch either, but Apple stacks up.
The 16" is a different story. Clockspeed and power have an exponential relationship, and Apple's iPhone chips are already at the far end of that curve. This scenario clocks them up more anyway. Assume also that the cache is expanded to a fairly generous size. Lastly, we use 12 high performance cores. While it's not clear the machine would be able to take advantage of this high core count, we just don't have any other options left to scale up this processor, which should still sit south of 35W after we add in an 8 core iGPU. Regardless, I would expect Rocket Lake and Cezanne to just destroy this thing.
| Apple | Intel | AMD | |
| 13" / 14" | 8x A14 CPU cores "Firestorm" @ 2.9GHz 16x A14 GPU +8GB HBM2E | 4x Core i7-1188G7 cores "Tiger Lake U" @ 2.3 - 4.1GHz 96 EU Tiger Lake GPU | 8x Zen 3 CPU cores "Cezanne" @ 2.4 - 4.2GHz RDNA2 iGPU "Cezanne" (25W TDP up) |
| 16" | 12x A14 CPU cores "Firestorm" @ 3.2GHz + iGPU 40x A14 GPU cores +16GB HBM2E | 8x "Rocket Lake S" cores @ 2.4 - 5.1GHz + iGPU AMD RDNA2 dGPU | 8x Zen 3 CPU cores "Cezanne" @ 3.3 - 4.4GHz + iGPU AMD RDNA2 dGPU |
Analysis: The smaller Apple notebook is extremely competitive. It comfortably fits 8 high performance cores. Apple can also afford dedicated high speed memory for their GPU, which their competitors cannot. Intel and AMD's offerings here are no slouch either, but Apple stacks up.
The 16" is a different story. Clockspeed and power have an exponential relationship, and Apple's iPhone chips are already at the far end of that curve. This scenario clocks them up more anyway. Assume also that the cache is expanded to a fairly generous size. Lastly, we use 12 high performance cores. While it's not clear the machine would be able to take advantage of this high core count, we just don't have any other options left to scale up this processor, which should still sit south of 35W after we add in an 8 core iGPU. Regardless, I would expect Rocket Lake and Cezanne to just destroy this thing.
I'm excited to see what their strategy is. Jon Prosser says Apple's going all in on ARM, including the Mac Pro. If that's true, it has to have better performance (or better performance per Watt) than Intel/AMD.
iF they shift all at once to Arm they will simply lose all the intel mac users at once.They simply can't.When even all Windows will shift to Arm maybe but just for the "entry" macs.Not for now , not for the 2021. Even on the apps side there is more than one company that doesnt want to be so tighted to Apple's world. What have Macs that Windows haven't? Logic., Final Cut , while Reason or Cubase are not Mac only , Flutter is going to develop for both platform at once and for web as well .Is not enough to go alone. Prosser says Logic will land on IpadOs but doesn't know with what limits due to ram , but what about Spitfire audio and vst-au ,Ominsphere, Roland Cloud instruments, what about Native Instruments or Ableton live.. not to mention the ones with Imac Pro and Mac Pro which will be left alone after all that massive prices and specs. Apple tried , just with butterfly keyboard then shifts back , after 5 years and a lot of great Macbook pro ruined with that old keyboard for what , just 1mm thick less , that you can't sell because of that with a very lowered prices because of the new..magic keyboard.
So they wlll put out an entry macbook ,not pro, maybe, which will bridge from Ipad Os to MacOs and maybe they will put out some sort of hybrid cpu just as the Lakefield if i'm not wrong from Intel. Last , i hope Intel puts out a REAL NEW THUNDERBOLT . Going to just 40 Gb/ps just as the TB3 with PCI 4 is simply ridicolous .
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According to the newest leaks, Intel will announce Tiger Lake U series in Q3 of 2020. So that is similar to the Ice Lake, which was available from August 1, 2019 and Macbook Pro implemented it 9 month later. This way, if Tiger Lake comes in August/September, we can expect MBP with it next May 2021.
Tigel Lake is going to offer sustained load on 4 cores of 2.8-3Ghz in 15/28W CPU and more than double the performance of GPU when compared to Ice Lake. Most powerful GPU is expected to be in the i7 CPU in 28W version.
That is the MBP which I am going to save money for while waiting it with the base/i5 Air 2020.
Also more performance CPU may need better cooling in a bigger body like 14 inch size.
Tigel Lake is going to offer sustained load on 4 cores of 2.8-3Ghz in 15/28W CPU and more than double the performance of GPU when compared to Ice Lake. Most powerful GPU is expected to be in the i7 CPU in 28W version.
That is the MBP which I am going to save money for while waiting it with the base/i5 Air 2020.
Also more performance CPU may need better cooling in a bigger body like 14 inch size.
I agree. That would be my assumption as well. At a guess the lineup will be :-
16" MacBook refresh later this year with 10th gen Intel CPUs and a mini led display in Q3 2030
14" MacBook Pro with Tiger lake and a mini led display in Q2 2021
12" MacBook ARM sometime in 2021. This will be a lightweight laptop to replace the Air primarily aimed at those who use web-browser based apps/sites and the built in apps like pages/iMovie (which presumably won't take Apple long to port to ARM).
I imagine the next MacBook Pro (14 and 16-inch models) with 11th Intel generation, we have already seen the i7-1185G7 with four cores and I think these laptop CPUs are not far from release.
Maybe the first MacBook with ARM is the discontinued 12" MacBook or the next MacBook Air. This have a lot of sense to me.
Maybe the first MacBook with ARM is the discontinued 12" MacBook or the next MacBook Air. This have a lot of sense to me.
I sincerely hope that WWDC and any associated product releases aren’t delayed because of what’s going on in the United States.
Half right. Tiger Lake has 96EUs compared to 64EUs in Ice Lake; almost everything about them is supposed to be the same. Graphics performance does scale linearly with core count so we can estimate comfortably that there will be a 50% increase in internal graphics performance.
This scenario is not likely. The higher end machines may continue to get Intel parts in their current chassis, but a redesigned chassis with a Mini LED will be reserved for ARM. Also, there is no reason to wait on transitioning the 14" MBP to ARM - Apple's chipset scales adequately for the 14" as-is.
It's possible Apple will back down from the ARM transition entirely, because AMD and Intel's offerings are increasingly competitive. But the best evidence suggests otherwise.
Actually, Intel would likely have Tigerlake H-Series if the 16 inch is releasing next year.
Is Tiger Lake H formally announced, or just a rumor? I did note the rumors about Tiger Lake H in my small text, but I opted not to include it as I thought its existence was unconfirmed.
If Tiger Lake H is real, then the gap between Apple and Intel certainly widens at 16"
Well, you've got the quote from the CEO
CEO quote
"rapid uptake of Tiger Lake mobile chips by laptop makers. Indeed, some 50 or more Tiger Lake-powered notebooks are already in the pipeline to launch by holiday 2020."
Another quote
"A new EEC registration document shows that Intel’s Tiger Lake-H platform is starting to get into the hands of system developers in preparation for a whole new generation of 10nm gaming laptops."
Maybe or maybe not. I read that Ice Lake took a long time to reach volume production because it was a new process. Tiger Lake is supposed to go faster:
Intel: Tiger Lake Client CPUs Coming Mid-Year
Thanks for the input. That is good for us, because it means that new MBP 13 may come earlier than May, 2021.
That will be a huge jump in performance, since this Ice Lake is intel's new kid in 10nm and probably this is only on paper 10nm but no so good. Reminds me of an old Apple, where 1st gen of CPU was so so, and "S" versions were all better.
This year i am holding on a i5 Air, so that is $200 difference saved by not going Pro this year, also 8gb of ram is $200 saved towards Pro, which will anyway have 16gb of RAM. So that is already $400 saved towards next $1799 Pro next year.
I would argue that the just-released Ice Lake models are also a huge jump because processor aside, base RAM and base SSD doubled for the same price. That is a very infrequent occurrence.
Personally, I'm on a 2016 Retina MacBook with a GPU problem, but I'm waiting til WWDC to see if there's any major news before I buy a 2020 Pro. I have a PC and a work MBP anyway so I'm not in dire need.
i'm running a 2010 MBP 13". pretty much can't run it without plugging it in. it over heats a lot and struggles browsing at times. still usable though for sure. i was all set to replace with a MBA but rumours of this 14" have given me a dilema! do i wait argh ????
very true there will always be something else, part of my thinking. this is a big purchase for me as i will be hoping for another decade out of it.
what about price folks!? £1.5k for a base model? more....?
don't think i could stomach £2k