MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[Mago]

Mago, why do you say that PCI-E v4 will take longer? Just out of curiosity.

Simple, still no GPU roadmap including PCIe4 until past 2018, neither next Intel new Skaylake Xeon neither AMD Naples (zen) foresee PCIe4, PCIe4 may go to mainstream by 2020 at least.

Why are you ruling out Naples? I am not necessarily an AMD fan, but there is some history between AMD and Apple

Not ruling out, just missed from my first replies post nnMP news, but also there are no news suggesting AMD Naples coming to a Mac besided the iMac and maaaaaybeeee the Mac Mini (AMD Rizen APU).

As to the Mac Pro 7,1, looking at the classic casing, just removing the 5.25" bays and replacing the 3.5" bays with 2.5" bays and/or a blend of M.2/Apple flash points would be a pretty hefty proportion of the interior you could slim down without consequence. Whatever they come out with, it's definitely going to be smaller than the 5,1.

Today hints seems focused on a single powerful GPU Solution, hopefully offering AMD and nVidia and ISA GPUs (full PCIe cards) but nothing said about the next architecture but it will be modular, that could just mean propertary GPUs with independent Optimized coolers, but ISA GPUs arent ruled out yet until formal announcement, but I dont believe Apple will offer again the option to load Spinners HDD to the Mac Pro. and the New Modular Mac Pro maybe not look like a trashcan but surely wont be much bigger, and its TDP maybe only about 700W (enough for a 72 core Xeon Phi and an nVidia Pascal GP100)

They were prepping it for launch (WWDC), but they couldn't make the thermals work, hence today's announcement. Ran too hot combined with the latest CPUs in that case.

Who knows, but I dont buy this hypothesis I have enough background on thermodynamics how to know there are solutions to keep the Trashcan Form Factor and trade dual for single GPU, but the solution implies a custom thermal pipe/vapor cycle cooler, and a beefier PSU.

Maybe they are just buying time for AMD to deliver Vega (and maybe Naples), or they just realized that to update the tcMP with custom form factor GPUs dont worth due its market size, and decided to switchback to ISA architecture (or MXM) instead, and save some money while offering more frequent GPU updates.

I really Like to See an Xeon-Skylake Mac Pro with options for Xeon Phi as main processor (xeon phi socket is compatible with the new xeon skylake socket), also nVidia Pascal optiion (ISA or Mezanine GPUs I don't know if nVidia Mezzanine GPU socket is open).

So Farewell to updathe the nMP this year, long live the Mac Pro.

 

[goMac]

Who knows, but I dont buy this hypothesis I have enough background on thermodynamics how to know there are solutions to keep the Trashcan Form Factor and trade dual for single GPU, but the solution implies a custom thermal pipe/vapor cycle cooler, and a beefier PSU.

That's true, and Apple hints at that in their interviews... but the whole point of the nMP design is dual GPUs. Reducing from a three sided thermal core to a two sided thermal core in a cylinder is enough of a problem you might as well scrap the design.

I've mentioned this before, but I thought I'd circle back to it... Apple really thought GPU upgrades on the nMP would be a thing. There's a reason Apple mentions modular upgrades so much because they thought the nMP would be that machine and it isn't.

So if you're going back to 1 GPU, and you can't even do GPU upgrades like you thought you could, might as well scrap it.

Just to really beat a dead horse here, Apple isn't against GPU upgrades, if today's interviews didn't make that clear.

Maybe they are just buying time for AMD to deliver Vega (and maybe Naples), or they just realized that to update the tcMP with custom form factor GPUs dont worth due its market size, and decided to switch to ISA architecture (or MXM) instead, and save some money while offering more frequent GPU updates.

This is giant fustercluck. There's no stall strategy right now or late parts or whatever else. It's exactly what it looks like. Apple hit a dead end, has nothing right now, and has to start over.

What they come up with will probably make people here happier. I just wouldn't read into this that there is some other motivation going on.

They thought they could do a Vega based Can Mac Pro, and it didn't work in the lab.

I really Like to See an Xeon-Skylake Mac Pro with options for Xeon Phi as main processor (xeon phi socket is compatible with the new xeon skylake socket), also nVidia Pascal optiion (ISA or Mezanine GPUs I don't know if nVidia Mezzanine GPU socket is open).

There is a year now for things to change, but I still don't think Nvidia on the Mac Pro is going to happen. But the door is now back open possibly to PCIe slots, which means Nvidia could ship their own cards. That's not a guarantee. Like I said, I think Apple is still re-working what they want the Mac Pro to be, and that doesn't necessarily mean PCIe, but it could.

Again though, it's all up in the air and I don't think Apple even has a prototype in house right now, so I'm back to just guessing.

(I heard this weekend there was a Ivy Bridge Mac Pro update inbound and I thought that was too crazy to be true. Heh.)

 

[Mago]

I still don't think Nvidia on the Mac Pro is going to happen.

If they actually considers more frequent updates and to address a wider range of PRO users, they cant rule out nVidia, and while there are lucrative agreements with AMD those still on a product by product basis, also account nVidia recent job post included MacOS drivers staff.

 

[koyoot]

Again though, it's all up in the air and I don't think Apple even has a prototype in house right now, so I'm back to just guessing.

They have a prototype. The bigger problem is not the computer, but the manufacturing it.

If they actually considers more frequent updates and to address a wider range of PRO users, they cant rule out nVidia, and while there are lucrative agreements with AMD those still on a product by product basis, also account nVidia recent job post included MacOS drivers staff.

The job offer is still online...

 

[goMac]

If they actually considers more frequent updates and to address a wider range of PRO users, they cant rule out nVidia, and while there are lucrative agreements with AMD those still on a product by product basis, also account nVidia recent job post included MacOS drivers staff.

If they go back to PCIe cards, it's possible. If they do anything at all custom, Nvidia is going to be trouble.

A good sign will be if Pascal drivers suddenly appear.

 

[askunk]

In the meantime, some could buy a used 4 core and bring it up to speed with a 10 core!

 

[Mago]

A good sign will be if Pascal drivers suddenly appear.

it wont happen soon even if today nVidia signed the procurement from Apple, maybe we dont get any new hints on the next Mac Pro until MBP refresh at year's end.

 

[goMac]

They have a prototype. The bigger problem is not the computer, but the manufacturing it.

I'd be really surprised if they had anything at all resembling a finished product in house right now. A year out is a really long lead. They probably have early prototype boards (which is really easy to do with Intel gear, just go to Frys down the street), but that's about it.

 

[koyoot]

I'd be really surprised if they had anything at all resembling a finished product in house right now. A year out is a really long lead. They probably have early prototype boards (which is really easy to do with Intel gear, just go to Frys down the street), but that's about it.

Oh no, I do not mean by this a finished product. More like a Mule. To "materialize" the idea, and test components in it.

 

[goMac]

it wont happen soon even if today nVidia signed the procurement from Apple, maybe we dont get any new hints on the next Mac Pro until MBP refresh at year's end.

Most of the fuss is around custom GPUs. If the new new Mac Pro doesn't use a custom GPU, it's possible.

Apple hints at this in their interview, but the reason they kept making tower Mac Pros regardless of sales is they were so easy to build. Throw in a new stock CPU, new stock GPU, maybe have to really fuss with the board every few years, and you're done. So the way Apple is acknowledging that sort of upgrade strategy makes me think they'll go back to stock parts.

 

[askunk]

Ahhhhh... freshness is in the air

 

[antonis]

So, more or less, Phil admitted that the current model was kind of a trolling, didn't he ?

 

[JesperA]

Ahhhhh... freshness is in the air

I dont agree with macrumors changing to just updated, it did not, they just modified the base configs for slightly better value, still same hardware

 

[AdamSeen]

Some good news today. But you guys are part of the community of vocal pros that help Apple make their decision faster. I'm sure they read the forums from time to time, so well done for keeping up the pressure.

 

[goMac]

Should also note the door might be open again to dual CPUs. Maybe.

 

[CWallace]

So, more or less, Phil admitted that the current model was kind of a trolling, didn't he ?

He admitted the market didn't go where Apple thought it would. Apple expected software would make use of multiple GPUs (instead it continued to focus on leveraging the power of a single CPU) and I expect they felt Intel would improve faster than they did (as in moving to smaller processes with lower TDPs allowing the existing cooling to handle newer CPUs).

 

[Jack Burton]

They invited a bunch of cheerleaders to their press event. John Gruber swallowed what they said without question - how PCs are moving to one powerful GPU.

Gruber and his team of worshipers asked about the mini, but not about nVidia/CUDA. They didn't press them on multi-gpu support, which despite what the Apple guy said, is quite common in a variety of scenarios.

Just look at this quote from daring fireball's coverage:

For examples of the type of software that the current Mac Pro isn’t well-suited for, Federighi mentioned VR: “Those can be in VR, those can be in certain kinds of high end cinema production tasks where most of the software out there that’s been written to target those doesn’t know how to balance itself well across multiple GPUs, but can scale across a single large GPU.”

Last I checked, SLI is a fine for multi-GPU real time graphics, VR is coming along nicely on the PC, and non-SLI multi GPU setups are very common in "high end cinema production tasks" like simulation and rendering.

What I took from it is that Apple doesn't get it, and the people they invited to cover them don't get it either.

And of course for the first time ever, Apple announced vaporware. "Just hold on till next year". That's when we'll say "wait until march. Wait until WWDC. Wait until the post iPhone event. Wait until November."

I love my iPad Pro something fierce. I'll probably either switch to surface pro or get a cheap refurb MacBook so I can use my iPad Pro with Astro pad. But for pro work, Apple just announced a bunch more reasons to leave for Windows.

Man, I'm going to miss Apple. I f***ing love using Macs. But my bosses are pushing me to do more and more, and asking me what hardware I need to get work done this year.

 

[koyoot]

Last I checked, SLI is a fine for multi-GPU real time graphics, VR is coming along nicely on the PC, and non-SLI multi GPU setups are very common in "high end cinema production tasks" like simulation and rendering.

What I took from it is that Apple doesn't get it, and the people they invited to cover them don't get it either.

And of course for the first time ever, Apple announced vaporware. "Just hold on till next year". That's when we'll say "wait until march. Wait until WWDC. Wait until the post iPhone event. Wait until November."

I love my iPad Pro something fierce. I'll probably either switch to surface pro or get a cheap refurb MacBook so I can use my iPad Pro with Astro pad. But for pro work, Apple just announced a bunch more reasons to leave for Windows.

Man, I'm going to miss Apple. I f***ing love using Macs. But my bosses are pushing me to do more and more, and asking me what hardware I need to get work done this year.

For VR, you have Split Frame Rendering. Which means that one GPU renders only part of the display, half to be precise, or one eye. Both Vulkan and DX12 applications are able to utilize this.

Actually for me the more I read, the more I see apologizing, and creating an alibi for themselves, why scrap Mac Pro design.

 

[deconstruct60]

Should also note the door might be open again to dual CPUs. Maybe.

That is highly doubtful. Both Intel and AMD are splitting the "workstation" socket off from the 2+ "server" socket. From the three transcripts I've read it looks like there were two "buckets" that they were missing with the current Mac Pro .

Single Core "drag racing" pro apps. ( iMac Pro and/or a Skylake-W class socket would help with that).
Monster ( 300-400W ) single GPUs. ( "buy biggest GPU can get hands on." In 300W range, but likely don't want to narrow TDP window too low again... If have non custom card need slop in coverage because of the thermal design mismatches. )



The dual CPU , four standard physical PCI-e slot container doesn't really fit those. More likely they are not

a. going to back completely off of Thunderbolt ( the rest of the Mac line up has it. Mac Pro isn't going to be an odd-ball) Four TBv3 sockets minimum. A very decent chance will keep the 6 ( since targeting 2018, that is tractable).
b. enable modest collection of SATA drives ( SATA has almost disappeared form whole Mac line up. )
c. going to back to a modest collection of PCIe cards in the x4 range.
d. looking to support 2-4 monster GPU cards.


The fork on workstation and server sockets means that the workstation socket is better match to single core drag racing and single GPUs. If walking away from max-multicard configs then don't need dual sockets. ( or single extremely large socket with four x16 sockets support )

If all Apple was going to do is slap a Skylake-W board inside the old Mac Pro frame and trot it out it wouldn't take a year to do. More likely they are working on something new. Probably two x16 slots max ( if not custom cards in the case Apple wants to build more than just 3 cards themselves. ). Probably 1-2 PCIe SSD sockets ( hopefully one of them M.2 standard ). Relatively modest to small in size ( not a container of stuff. ).

 

[Dreadnought]

My bet is that the nMP will probably be like the Razor project Christine. Modular, can switch and configure everything yourself (foolproof), add modules (1 or more GPU, CPU's, RAM boxes, etc). Some modules will be hot swoppable and offcourse there own connector. Every module can not be opened and you can only buy them from Apple. Even the connectors can be added (stacked), so that you can make your system as big (or small = MacMini) as you want.

I think Apple was already playing with this idea when they invented firewire and later with TB, hence the nMP.

 

[fuchsdh]

I dont agree with macrumors changing to just updated, it did not, they just modified the base configs for slightly better value, still same hardware

Yeah, but it's worth giving a "buy now" recommendation if you need it. The price of a 6c, 512GB SSD and D700s went from USD$4799 to $3399. This should have come 18 months ago, really, but it's still welcome and good for people who can't afford to wait another 8-16 months (at the minimum, although I doubt Apple is going to be waiting until 2019 to replace this.)

 

[deconstruct60]

Vega tube Mac Pro is dead.

They were prepping it for launch (WWDC), but they couldn't make the thermals work, hence today's announcement. Ran too hot combined with the latest CPUs in that case.

Once they realized how screwed they were, they had to make today's announcements.

So they were trying to reuse the exact same case dimensions? Wow. It is a bit amazing it took this long to figure out they were screwed. It should be been clear well over a year ago that they had cut the thermal tolerances a bit too tight. The +/- delta differences between CPU and GPU generations requires at least some amount of nominal slack thermal envelope.

It was a version 1.0 that was off. The MBA iterated. All the other desktops iterated a bit on design coming out of the gate.

I would be surprised at this point if there was a prototype at all for what will be the 7,1. But at least they're moving in the right direction.

If they are not going thermal mock ups early or at least tracking the component projections .... that is kind of loopy. Wouldn't be surprising to see that slide well into late 2018 in that case.

You'd think there would be someone working on "rough" generation N+1 testing, while another, larger, team worked on generation N. To be completely dead in the water at this point is telling. The large gaps between releases are a by-product of that.

 

[Mago]

A thing its sure, MacInsider should rename its blog to MacOusted ...

I feel the new iMacs (and maybe Mac mini) will go on sale on next month, along with iPad Pro introductions and Apple TV 4K.

 

[deconstruct60]

The weaknesses of the iMac for more "pro" work basically comes down to three things—no ECC RAM, if that affects you, no beefier workstation cards/non-mobile sourced cards, if that affects you, and throttling on very arduous GPU/CPU-intensive tasks, if that affects you. Creating an iMac Pro with a Xeon solves the ECC RAM issue, but I'm not sure how they give us a beefier GPU that can handle heavier loads without changing the chassis (like, say, making the iMac Pro enclosure basically akin to the 2011-era thickness across the entire computer.)

They don't have to make a radical change on GPU. The R9 M395/x ran in the 100-125W range. RX 480 runs around 150W ( yeah would run better in something over that but...). Perhaps get back 10W from newer CPU ( 90W -> 80W ) and only need to make incremental improvements. Polaris 10 with process tweaks could run well inside of an iMac. A RX 480 isn't top end GPU but it is solidly in the middle of the desktop GPU class performance range.

Makes sense they would want to dump the D300 because the iMac would clearly be in better shape, even besides their age and other problems.

As to the Mac Pro 7,1, looking at the classic casing, just removing the 5.25" bays and replacing the 3.5" bays with 2.5" bays and/or a blend of M.2/Apple flash points would be a pretty hefty proportion of the interior you could slim down without consequence. Whatever they come out with, it's definitely going to be smaller than the 5,1.

Even 2.5" bays largely imply SATA. Apple is clearly dumping SATA across the Mac line up. There is nothing in their descriptions of the mea cupla on the Mac Pro problems that even remotely hints that they feel moving away from SATA was a bad idea. The Mac Pro is extremely likely heading toward PCIe NVMe.... period. At least one standard M.2 socket would be nice. ( trimforce is acknowledgement that 3rd party SSDs actually do exist. Would be nice to be about to insert one. )

The only thing I'd expect would be an increase from one PCIe SSD socket to two. Not the return of SATA.
[doublepost=1491334661][/doublepost]

Okay. I guess I was wrong. There will be a new Mac Pro.

Today's news is the closest Apple has come (and probably will come) to detailing a roadmap for the Mac Pro. Since I'm not in need of a new computer today (or even this year), I'll wait to see what transpires.
...

This really isn't so much of a roadmap but a cancellation notice. Apple announced XServe was at end of the line many months before stopped selling. Ditto with 2013 WWDC "end of the line" with the 2009-2012 era Mac Pro. This current one too is end. It seems clear from the transcripts that is is going to fold some of the current MP 2013 users into "iMac Pros" systems and another major subset into what they are doing next. They still aren't chasing everybody from the pre 2008 marketplace, but this current system will reach an end-of-the-road in terms of evolution.

These much higher priced systems with relatively longer procurement cycles Apple needs to tell folks in advance when the window to buy is going to close. That isn't so much a "future" newer products roadmap than it is a "end of life" notification. ( ' if you need these for the next couple of years... need to start buying planning process ...' )

There is a secondary element here that there is new product, but the primary thing here that isn't in conflict with talking about new product is that a current product is being ended in the future. "The King is dead, long live the King"... The major issue is that the King is dead. It is an announcement of a major inflection point, not a long term pronouncement of the future.

Mac Pros are single digits of Mac line up. ( very likely very low single digit). The single digit is from the discussions they had with these 4 bloggers. Desktops are down to 20%. It isn't a major driver. As much as folks were yelping that nobody was buying the current system .... it was/is being bought. A small enough blip that can continue; close enough to above 0% that Apple can justify it.

 

[goMac]

So they were trying to reuse the exact same case dimensions? Wow. It is a bit amazing it took this long to figure out they were screwed. It should be been clear well over a year ago that they had cut the thermal tolerances a bit too tight. The +/- delta differences between CPU and GPU generations requires at least some amount of nominal slack thermal envelope.

With custom designs no one is quite sure what the TDP will come out as. Polaris was supposed to be more efficient, it wasn't. Vega could be more efficient, but it's late. Part of the denial is waiting for the next thing, and then the next

Clearly Vega didn't pan out either for TDP.

They don't have to make a radical change on GPU. The R9 M395/x ran in the 100-125W range. RX 480 runs around 150W ( yeah would run better in something over that but...). Perhaps get back 10W from newer CPU ( 90W -> 80W ) and only need to make incremental improvements. Polaris 10 with process tweaks could run well inside of an iMac. A RX 480 isn't top end GPU but it is solidly in the middle of the desktop GPU class performance range.

I think they know a 480 would probably be a waste of time. They could have stretched it into this EOL update they did today, but a 480 is not competitive with a 1080 or 1080 Ti. It would mean another round of complaining that Apple doesn't really get it.

Even 2.5" bays largely imply SATA. Apple is clearly dumping SATA across the Mac line up. There is nothing in their descriptions of the mea cupla on the Mac Pro problems that even remotely hints that they feel moving away from SATA was a bad idea. The Mac Pro is extremely likely heading toward PCIe NVMe.... period. At least one standard M.2 socket would be nice. ( trimforce is acknowledgement that 3rd party SSDs actually do exist. Would be nice to be about to insert one. )

I feel pretty comfortable guessing that SATA is not coming back at all.

Apple File System is supposed to include built in support for TRIM. Might make third party SSDs easier to use under macOS.