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With the move to APFS, I expect Apple's longer-term plan is to scrap spinning metal in the iMac.

Depending on what Apple has planned for the iMac design, we will probably still see Fusion in the Late 2017 upgrade (but now as the entry-level as opposed to just HDD).

Hmmm, really? APFS actually doesn't do all the things that CoreStorage did. Fusion drives is one of those. APFS is skewed more than a bit toward iOS types of issues and there never was any "Fusion" solution there at all.

There definitely does seem to be a major disconnect between all the Fusion systems that Apple has sold and APFS. Namely,

"...
  • Fusion Drive: Apple File System cannot use Fusion Drives
..."
https://developer.apple.com/library...Management/Conceptual/APFS_Guide/FAQ/FAQ.html

Unless there is a major shift in capabilities announced at WWDC. ( that seems awfully late for a significant subsystem of that nature. ). Right now it looks like the next Mac OS upgrade with not automatically shift to APFS if are running a Fusion system.

There are some 'broken' stuff that obviously would have to get fixed before can go default on macOS

"...

No. macOS Sierra supports Apple File System for data volumes only. You cannot boot macOS Sierra from a APFS-formatted volume. ..."
[same link as above. ]
That is probably a far higher on the fix and enable list than Fusion drive for the next version of macOS. :)

I'm still more than a bit skeptical that APFS will be ready to be the default file system for the next version of macOS. I really don't think it is going to make the cut as being the standard one. ( An optional "try this out" sure. But push most Mac systems to it as fast a possible would likely be a mistake. iOS works because of the narrow set of standard use cases. macOS is very, very different. )


If they do insist on pushing APFS extremely aggressively, it wouldn't be surprised if Apple just through bulk capacity at affordable prices out the window for the iMac. I think it is premature, but Apple has a track record at this point on that kind of stuff. If throwing a premature file system at folks might as well go whole hog .
 
First to all the apologists for the trashcan mac pro here, I'd like extend my sincere HAhahahahahahhahahhahahhaaaaa (and worse) in your face. Even apple acknowledges (in an insultingly backhanded way devoid of any humility--aka the apple norm) what a train wreck it is. Thanks for prolonging this agony by being apologists for it for so long. I thoroughly expect you to now try to further justify it and will enjoy your monkey dance to do so.

This is a total strategic business failure. All the more shocking that they didn't learn from the cube debacle.

Apple's price is at record high, but my confidence in them is at record lows.
Do not Laugh too soon ... the curren tcMP has issues to adopt new HW (mostly a constrained TDP), it doesn mean the Next Mac pro wont be another Trash Can, it perfectly would be a Trash-can like with modular (MXM or even the current GPU design) GPUs and modular coolung solution and surely more TDP.
 
@goMac

Desktop Macs nowadays are a weird, niche beast...I wouldn't necessarily use laptop Macs as reference..

And yes the latest Mac Mini 2014 has SATA...I'm writing from one..it may or may not have the proper cable depending on initial CTO options...mine had fusion and can be manually maxed out to 1TB flash + 2TB sata... (not user accessible officially)

As for iMacs..education education education...they kept the stupid display air gap for the sake of education costs in the just released iPad 5, they can definitely keep the HDD in iMacs..
 
SATA is already out in the Mac Minis, MacBooks, MacBook Pros... iMac is likely next. I wouldn't be surprised if this Fall they do away with hard drives in the high end models, and no more Fusion Drive.

Mac Mini still has Fusion drive, but it is even more comatose that the Mac Pro. So still that is not good SATA indicator.
The Mini is actually pretty close to being a "All Fusion" set up. That is more of an indicator where SSD was present almost everywhere.


The Mac Mini has tracked laptops for the most part throughout its history (to some extent a "headless laptop") . That the laptops have completely dumped is enough of an indicator if it stays on that track. Even if the Mini shifted over to track the iMac ( more headless iMac ) it is still a very lonely island is that across the whole Mac portfolio.

TLC SSD prices are about in range Apple could stick Mini's with those and just raise the overall Mini base prices up $100 to cover it.
 
Fusion is just a software thing, who cares.
Every apple desktop except the one-shot trashbin thing still has SATA on the logic board (cable or not), fact.
Laptops haven't for ages now, that didn't affect desktops.

Anyway SATA over thunderbolt is just fine. Let's see if they do some really crazy modular stuff over pcie/tb, with SATA/SAS expansion modules as an accessory.
 
Both wrong.

Sorry about that. I thought I remembered seeing a standard 12 core configure in the online store before. 12 core is in the options that I didn't dive down into on a too fast skim of the store page.

But all D300 permutations starting with the Quad+D300 standard config starting point are gone. D300's with 6, 8 , and 12 core also. Not just the quad. Anyone who wanted just cores and not GPU it is cheaper now to get the cores, but also have the GPU bumped too.
 
Do not Laugh too soon ... the curren tcMP has issues to adopt new HW (mostly a constrained TDP), it doesn mean the Next Mac pro wont be another Trash Can, it perfectly would be a Trash-can like with modular (MXM or even the current GPU design) GPUs and modular coolung solution and surely more TDP.


Well then. Put a fork in apple if they can't by a clue at this point.

58% of this forum called it right
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/is-the-new-mac-pro-a-failure.1939541/
 
Yes, 4 TB SSDs are dirt cheap.

The current iMacs top out at 3TB so 4 would be a step up in capacity at some time driving up the $/GB ... so not likely a path they'd be on.

APFS could be extended incrementally to do multiple physical disk/volume 'storage pools'. So two 1TB PCIe SSDs would work for a modest drop in capacity, but leverage the much cheaper TLC NAND Flash. Apple doesn't necessarily have to chase the bleeding edge NAND storage density limits to lower prices.

If Apple drops SATA from the iMac I wouldn't expect them to make the same move to restrict to only one PCIe SSD at this point. The current Mac Pro was way ahead of curve on moving to PCI-e flash. It is far more mainstream now. The PCH chipsets and CPUs available relatively easily support more than just one PCIe SSD. ( not max bandwidth on both at the same time, but easy to hook up on a custom logic board (and only use a fraction of the space the 2.5 or 3.5 drive was using internally. )

Bulk storage doesn't have to be out in the distant cloud. More than a few people "sneaker net" around external bulk storage in transportable drives.
[doublepost=1491352612][/doublepost]
This is largely false and would be a mistake for Apple.

If the only thing they've learned from the nMP debacle is that instead of 1 CPU + 2 underpowered GPU's, they should go to 1 CPU and 1 GPU, then they truly don't get it.

The high end of the market is comfortably using 2P workstations (dual E5-2687w v4 or better) with 2-4 high end GPU's with 80+ lanes of PCIe, and even Thunderbolt if you want it.

That is the price of entry at the high end.

Apple does get it. They aren't going to try to be everything to everybody. They weren't before the MP 2013 design and aren't going to be in the future. It isn't like the 3+ GPU solutions don't exist, but there is nothing to indicate at all they they are going to try to chase that. I don't think they are going to completely abandon 2 GPU workflows, but more than two... I highly doubt they have changed their minds in that direction.

As for CPUs the fact that both Intel and AMD are both slitting those off from server says everything about the market that Apple is probably going to take under consideration. Yes, there will be fringe chasing workstations with far more server targeted CPUs. No, Apple is going to chase those folks.

Note that the Mac Pro is in the single digit percentage class now. If split off the "> 12 x86 and more than dual GPU" crowd into a separate standing product it will most likely be sub single digit in size. Apple dropped dual CPU packages and made money with this Mac Pro. It isn't like the bulk of the Mac Pro market got lost. There are also lots of grumbling audio folks that had a hate fest with 2 GPUs. Getting more of them and losing the 4 GPU folks never firmly had a grip on even with other system... is extremely likely fine with them.

Apple isn't solely aiming at the extreme high end. Even back with the 2006-2012 models ( and before) there were always a very small segment moaning that 4 PCI-e slots were not enough. The power supply is too small for my 1.4Kw custom monster they constructed. That you can just put a larger amount of stuff into a HP Z800 or Dell 7000. Hot-Swap modular and/or dual power supplies..... .... There was always a bigger, more giant box with slots Apple could have built.

Apple looks to be walking back a bit but there nothing in what they said in that they were doing a complete 180 and now were out to build the biggest Mac Pro they have ever built either.

A couple quotes from the TechCrunch transcript.

" ..
Says Ternus:

I think one of the foundations of that system was the dual GPU architecture… and for certain workflows, certain classes of pro customers, that’s a great solution. But… to Phil’s point, “Pro” is so broad that it doesn’t necessarily fit all the needs of all the pros.
... "

"
.... There’s certain scientific loads that are very GPU intensive and they want to throw the largest GPU at it that they can,” says Federighi. “There are heavy 3D graphics [applications] or graphics and compute mixed loads. Those can be in VR, those can be in certain kinds of high end cinema production tasks where most of the software out there that’s been written to target those doesn’t know how to balance itself well across multiple GPUs but can scale across a single large GPU.” ..."
https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/04/apple-pushes-the-reset-button-on-the-mac-pro/

"

What is being overly being talked about here is 1 or 2 GPUs being a good coverage of pro workload. Sometimes one "extra heavy" GPU and other times 2 "reasonable". There is nothing here pointing to 2-4 "as large as possible" GPUs a being the bulk of the market segment they are looking at all.

What this looks like is being able to put in different targeted cooling for 1 or 2 GPU configs. Nothing about crank up the CPU count to highest possible limits. It is open ended enough that could be 1 or 2 embedded designs of Apple's construction. Upgrades isn't necessarily random vendor 22 open market GPUs. If had better thermal constraints they could have made their own cards. Or is the real problem that don't have enough will to resource making their own cards over a broad enough range. Which one of those two is the case doesn't really get touched on in the transcripts I've read.
 
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He admitted the market didn't go where Apple thought it would. Apple expected software would make use of multiple GPUs (instead it continued to focus on leveraging the power of a single CPU) and I expect they felt Intel would improve faster than they did (as in moving to smaller processes with lower TDPs allowing the existing cooling to handle newer CPUs).

He was also apologetic for apple's own choices, though. Lack of upgrades, lack of communication, the entire vision behind this specific form factor, the pricing etc. In other words, for all the things some people have been saying here for so long.
 
He was also apologetic for apple's own choices, though. Lack of upgrades, lack of communication, the entire vision behind this specific form factor, the pricing etc. In other words, for all the things some people have been saying here for so long.

I was a slightly impressed that they made those admissions. The "slightly" part is that it hardly makes up for the years and years of nothing, but at least it's something. Now they just have to deliver, and hopefully quickly!
 
Unless there is a major shift in capabilities announced at WWDC. ( that seems awfully late for a significant subsystem of that nature. ). Right now it looks like the next Mac OS upgrade with not automatically shift to APFS if are running a Fusion system.

Well then maybe the iMac will also go to pure SSD storage, which would be a benefit, IMO.
 
This may come after 2017 but I bet they talk about it at WWDC...

Highly unlikely. Not only is the this out now because the "doom and gloom" is quite high, but also NAB is in a couple of weeks. I think there are some audio conferences coming. They may do some more low key, NDA feedback sessions there about what people "heard" after digesting this info from Apple. (e.g,. how many folks walked away with the 'you're only interested in 1 GPU now... " misread on it. )

However, I doubt Apple is going to continue to yelp with a megaphone about this over and over and over again. It is enough of an Osborne Effect to do with they have done. To continue to harp on it over and over again only increases the impact.

There is not going to be nothing new to say. Still not going to talk about more details or a more specific timeline. Sucking up WWDC time to talk about something already talked about is a colossal waste of time. WWDC should be about new, positive, unannounced stuff'.

The rumor mill is going to push this out to tons of people in the pro sector over the next two months. Saying it all over again isn't going to add much of significance to the dissemination.


P.S. At least for WWDC 17. If Apple is as behind as it sounds ( just relatively recently found out Vega wouldn't work and ran into an unexpected brick wall) then WWDC 18 maybe. If they are just starting I doubt they would be finished by then and would have painted themselves into another "sneak peak" corner. If began to seriously explore this new otpion several months ago ... then 14 months is around the right amount of time.
 
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Excellent news! I was among those who feared the Mac Pro would be quietly neglected and eventually discontinued. But Jim Dalrymple called it five years ago, seriously.

This is good news for me on two levels, I now know that my 4,1 quad>5,1 hex should be enough to hold me over (knock on wood), and I can finally ditch Cubase for Logic. It's long overdue, but my concerns about Apple's commitment to the Mac had me on the fence and I considered switching to Studio One instead.

But most important thing we learned today: NAGGING WORKS! If we complain long and loud enough, even haughty Apple has to take notice and address our concerns. Very smart, too, the way they put this news out.

Best DF post ever :)
 
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P.S. At least for WWDC 17. If Apple is as behind as it sounds ( just relatively recently found out Vega wouldn't work and ran into an unexpected brick wall) then WWDC 18 maybe. If they are just starting I doubt they would be finished by then and would have painted themselves into another "sneak peak" corner. If began to seriously explore this new otpion several months ago ... then 14 months is around the right amount of time.

I'm sure they've been at it for an entire quarter at least. The fact that they're far enough along to announce it'll be a modular system means they're quite confident they're refining that idea, and not just lost in the woods. They've done the feasibility studies and such. I'm hoping 9 months from now we get something.
 
I'm sure they've been at it for an entire quarter at least. The fact that they're far enough along to announce it'll be a modular system means they're quite confident they're refining that idea, and not just lost in the woods. They've done the feasibility studies and such. I'm hoping 9 months from now we get something.

Like with other things, when it come to the MAC line, I've learned to take my expectation and increase it by a factor of two.
 
mMP

mMP.png
 
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Modular Mac Pro

Oh, how could I miss that!? At least I can see from your origin that the date means 4th of April and not April 4, even if it’s the 5th going on to 6. The question is whether it’ll get here on 8-8-2018 or 9-9-2019. My wallet is burning a hole in my pocket.
 
Does anybody knows if Apple is limiting the max Turbo boost of the 8 core 3.0 GHz E5-1680 V2 to 3.5 as shown on their website?

If you check the processor specs at Intel's website you can see that the Turbo Boost of the E5-1680 is actually 3.9GHz as shown in the picture below.

Mac Pro New Configuration.png
Intel.png


Intel.png
 
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I'm pretty sure there are people in the forum who can confirm it, but I guess it is very likely due to thermal restraints.

Thanks for pointing it out. I haven't noticed it before, I gave for granted they had a lower boost frequency as usually happens with the base frequency as you increase the number of cores active on a chip. I could speculate that the boost must interest only a few cores or just one, therefore the "normalised" value across the range. Let the nerdiest in the chat answer :D
 
The tMP designator will have to be used once we actually have a nMP :)

As for how far along they are with the product, I think it's further than people here are fearing, but still far behind where they really should be. Seems like they basically decided to skip a gen, worked on the next one and encountered their problems, and then sat waiting and hoping that external factors would align and work out for them when they should have been moving to plan B much sooner.
 
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