MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[Mago]

Hi Guys, I was away due a loss in m family, those days i was away I had contact with relatives also HPC mac pro users, we talked about the Mac Pro issues and 'rebirth', one of my relatives told me about a talk in person with some blogger, he told few parts untold about the tc Mac Pro history.

Despite Angry Pro Users, at launch and by about 2 years the tcMP had excellent sales even few months outsold the iMac27 non-retina, no updates comes to the tcMP due (as most we know): negligible Xeon IPC improvements and no new AMD GPUs (but Apple tested few variations), Thermals where the main issue that presented the tcMP, even Apple tested Thermal Pipes and Liquid cooling, but main reason preventing the tcMP update was AMD, seems AMD has some rigths on the tcMP GPU design also preventing nVidia to get in, finally some internal issues among Directors and R&D which lead to some departs, now Craig Federighi is leading the MP h/w development (MP dedicatedR&D team was almost vacant), he realized the MP needs a redesign to allow single High Performance GPU or dual moderate performance, and offer either AMD or nVidia, but he considers its modularity as most fear, to allow Apple to swith proprietary components in production line, no interest to allow DIY upgrades, they are working hard on the new Intel platform aiming to release a compact monster at about 900W TDP but full proprietary, final US assembly still considered but the MP will arrive to the US partially assembled, a Sneak peek will be shown son at WWDC's hw announcements, targeting Q1/18 shipments, nVidia GPUs certainly comes with the next MP, but no user upgradable, no decision about intel Optane, seems they consider it too immature for this year, but at least the MP will have dual SSD, and maybe a couple PCIe slot (not x16).

Future Apple Pro's Display to be 8K on mDP 1.4 or HDMI but having USB-C/TB3 input for accessories, even Apple considers to include a PCIe slot into the monitor for Capture devices or Rendering acceleration, not clear.

 

[jclmavg]

he realized the MP needs a redesign to allow single High Performance GPU or dual moderate performance, and offer either AMD or nVidia, but he considers its modularity as most fear, to allow Apple to swith proprietary components in production line, no interest to allow DIY upgrades

Apple will be Apple.

 

[Mago]

I miss that part, the mMP on the cards may look as semi-squared tcMP, about same width and deep but squared and bit taller. no dual cpu is even on the cards, and a hp-GPU may prevent a 2nd gpu, but dual moderate GPU may co-exist, no final decision until the design is frozen, in case they focus on single hpGPU or dual moderate GPU, they could restrict the PSu to 500W and release mMP with a similar size to the tcMP, this option is being considered as per EPA/California law restricting PCs power restrictions.

Apple Pro Display to be 38"

 

[PortableLover]

Propriety...


Bugger off Apple. Lets see what it looks like at WWDC.

 

[AidenShaw]

...this option is being considered as per EPA/California law restricting PCs power restrictions.

Do note that those regulations are focused on idle power consumption, with higher limits and exceptions for workstations and servers.

Another interesting facet is that "expandable" computers get higher limits - so if Apple uses locked-down proprietary modules they may restrict the mMP vs. a user-expandable design.

HP helped with shaping the regulation - and you can be sure that it won't affect the z840...

 

[vailr]

Craig Federighi ... considers its modularity as most fear, to allow Apple to swith proprietary components in production line, no interest to allow DIY upgrades

Thank goodness, there's yet still time for their design team to come to their senses, by simply allowing for any standard (AMD, nVidia, or on-board Intel GPU) PC graphics cards to be used instead of any sort of non-standard Mac-specific video cards.
If they have half a brain left to work with, anyway.

 

[ManuelGomes]

Hi Mago. Good news, sort of.
It seems I was on the right track when I said it would be like the NeXT Cube.
I'd bet something like the AirPort Extreme, bigger to accommodate the PS and proprietary GPU(s) and a couple SSDs.
We're not there yet but I could see it in the future having a custom motherboard with 3 slots (some high speed fabric, or PCIe for now) which you could populate with one or two CPUs and one or two GPUs, whichever fits your needs (one could stay empty if not needed). Or maybe 5 slots for a couple SSDs that you could also configure to your needs.
That would be nice.

Will they really have something to show as soon as WWDC? Doubt it, unless they're not sleeping until they come up with something really good.
And 38" seems overkill but ok. And with a slot? Imagine how much power that will sip. Goodbye one cable solution.
NVidia and AMD GPUs to choose from would be welcome.
If they deliver by Q1'18 I'd be quite surprised really.

 

[Mago]

And 38" seems overkill but ok.

Apple just Keeps pixel density the same as 4K, 5K iMac.

Thank goodness, there's yet still time for their design team to come to their senses, by simply allowing for any standard (AMD, nVidia, or on-board Intel GPU) PC graphics cards to be used instead of any sort of non-standard Mac-specific video cards.
If they have half a brain left to work with, anyway.

What I hear from my relatives, Apple is clear not to allow again commodity GPU upgrades to any mac system, with GPUs you can buy for PCs.

Maybe Apple will Allow DIY GPU upgrades but with Apple supplied GPUs.

 

[AidenShaw]

What I hear from my relatives, Apple is clear not to allow again commpdity GPU upgrades to any mac system, mMP gpu maybe user-upgradable -not clear- but with Apple supplied GPUs no GPU you can buy for PCs/

In other words, they're determined to make Cube 3.0.

 

[ManuelGomes]

No standard cards, I'd bet on that any day of the week.
It can have slots (multiple even so you can configure it to your needs, like I said above) but doubt they'll ever again be standard PCIe slots.

 

[Mago]

In other words, they're determined to make Cube 3.0.

Hopefully made with gorilla glass instead scrath-prone acrylic. -LOL-...
[doublepost=1494278724][/doublepost]

It can have slots (multiple even so you can configure it to your needs, like I said above) but doubt they'll ever again be standard PCIe slots.

Maybe they are worried about some 'Pro-' peripheral vendors not jumping to the ThunderBolt bus coz implies cost and duplicated development for an small market, but actually they consider std PCIe3 x4 slots. consider the mMP design concept is not frozen yet (still possible no PCIe expansion slot at all).

 

[AidenShaw]

No standard cards, I'd bet on that any day of the week.
It can have slots (multiple even so you can configure it to your needs, like I said above) but doubt they'll ever again be standard PCIe slots.

I hope that Apple is reaching out to their remaining (and former) Mac Pro customers for input, and I would expect that a majority of those people would say "off-the-shelf cards or don't bother". No more proprietary boot ROMs, no more proprietary form factors for SSDs, no more proprietary form factors for GPUs.

And funny, some of the people who seem to be comfortable with Cube 3.0 have complained the loudest about "CUDA is a proprietary vendor lockin".

 

[ManuelGomes]

And you believe they'll listen, or at least act on it, to anyone else but themselves?
The way I see it, Apple doesn't do anything other people want.
Maybe this time it'll be different.

 

[ActionableMango]

I've already switched. I put both my Mac Pros up for sale and one is gone already.

The mMP would have to be 100% sheer awesomeness for me to bother going through all the trouble of switching back, and standard PCIe video cards would be an essential part of that.

If Apple doesn't include PCIe, then they have either purposely or ignorantly ignored a large chunk of their Mac Pro customer base a second time in a row, right after apologizing for ignoring us with the last model.

 

[AidenShaw]

And you believe they'll listen, or at least act on it, to anyone else but themselves?
The way I see it, Apple doesn't do anything other people want.
Maybe this time it'll be different.

It's already different, because Apple execs sat down and admitted that they'd misjudged technology and the market, and pre-announced something a year or so in advance.

And an earlier comment here (paraphrased) was "maybe a 500 watt power supply to meet energy standards".

I see that as an ice cube's chance in hell, since the amigos said that customers want big, powerful graphics cards. (I hope that they heard that in the plural, not that they heard "customers want one big, powerful graphics card"....)

There are few interesting GPUs that you can put in a system with a 500 watt power supply. I just received twenty 1080Ti cards with 6+8 power connectors. And all of them are going in as four 1080Ti cards per system.

Really, go back and re-read the interview with the amigos. It doesn't sound like they are working on Cube 3.0 - hold their feet to the fire.

 

[Stacc]

I hope that Apple is reaching out to their remaining (and former) Mac Pro customers for input, and I would expect that a majority of those people would say "off-the-shelf cards or don't bother". No more proprietary boot ROMs, no more proprietary form factors for SSDs, no more proprietary form factors for GPUs.

And funny, some of the people who seem to be comfortable with Cube 3.0 have complained the loudest about "CUDA is a proprietary vendor lockin".

There are benefits to custom form factor cards.

1. Better cooling solutions than a double slot standard GPU cooler
2. Supports thunderbolt (including display over thunderbolt)
3. Improved case design since you don't need to fit a 12" card with DisplayPort out the back
4. The "it just works" factor. Users don't have to worry about tracking down third party drivers for every OS update or worry about whether the card displays anything on boot.

Obviously, these factors may not be enough for you to outweigh the benefits, but some of the benefits that led to the trashcan are still there, and I suspect Apple will still make similar decisions. Hopefully the lessons learned are to provide more cooling capacity for the GPU(s) to allow for future upgradeability and provide more choices in the GPU vendor. A decent compromise might be better support for external GPU boxes for those users who really want standard GPUs.

 

[AidenShaw]

Hopefully the lessons learned are to provide more cooling capacity for the GPU(s) to allow for future upgradeability and provide more choices in the GPU vendor. A decent compromise might be better support for external GPU boxes for those users who really want standard GPUs.

That's no choice in the GPU vendor - you buy GPUs from Apple. If Apple decides not to release upgrades - nada.

T-Bolt has been a horrible mistake on the desktop. Retire it. Why did Intel let Apple convince them to require display signals over T-Bolt?
[doublepost=1494281408][/doublepost]

There are benefits to custom form factor cards.

1. Better cooling solutions than a double slot standard GPU cooler

Better in what way? Being able to shrink a desktop? Who is asking for that?

These dual slot card come with some amazing cooling solutions.
[doublepost=1494281651][/doublepost]

4. The "it just works" factor. Users don't have to worry about tracking down third party drivers for every OS update or worry about whether the card displays anything on boot.

GPU makers seem to be able to feed driver updates into the Windows Update stream just fine. Often delayed by a few weeks due to the additional testing - but "it just works".

And Windows users don't worry about a boot screen - because only Apple uses a proprietary old (and bastardized) version of EFI instead of the almost universally supported UEFI

 

[ManuelGomes]

Every side has it's benefits and drawbacks, let's see what Apple can come up with.

 

[Peace]

That's no choice in the GPU vendor - you buy GPUs from Apple. If Apple decides not to release upgrades - nada.

T-Bolt has been a horrible mistake on the desktop. Retire it. Why did Intel let Apple convince them to require display signals over T-Bolt?
[doublepost=1494281408][/doublepost]
Better in what way? Being able to shrink a desktop? Who is asking for that?

These dual slot card come with some amazing cooling solutions.
[doublepost=1494281651][/doublepost]
GPU makers seem to be able to feed driver updates into the Windows Update stream just fine. Often delayed by a few weeks due to the additional testing - but "it just works".

And Windows users don't worry about a boot screen - because only Apple uses a proprietary old (and bastardized) version of EFI instead of the almost universally supported UEFI

This.

I get NVidia GeForce graphics updates probably once a week in windows 10

 

[zephonic]

This forum feels like an echo chamber.....

 

[AidenShaw]

This forum feels like an echo chamber.....

Which... which... which...
forums... forums... forums...
aren't? aren't? aren't?

 

[Mago]

I consider very unrealistic (knowing Apple proceedings) believe there still a chance for STD PCIe GPUs in the mMP.

Proprietary GPUs form factor aren't a bg issue as long Apple sell regular updates at competitive costs (even allowing users to DIY updates with Apple-sourced parts).

 

[flowrider]

^^^^I disagree. I know Apple's goal with the nMP is to make it a closed system. The only upgrades possible are RAM and CPU. What that has done is spawn the proliferation of Hackintoshes and has kept folks, like me, holding on to their cMP 5,1s for dear life. Because we can upgrade with industry standard parts. Nvidia's decision, with I suppose Apple's help, to include Pascal drivers has kept the 5,1 relevant.

Lou

 

[Stacc]

T-Bolt has been a horrible mistake on the desktop. Retire it. Why did Intel let Apple convince them to require display signals over T-Bolt?

You may not see a benefit to it, but there is some benefit. If a MacBook pro owner with a thunderbolt RAID or an external audio interface decides they want more compute power they can just swap the cable over to the better machine. Yes, the benefit of data and display over a single cable is reduced for a desktop machine, but that doesn't mean Apple shouldn't maintain compatibility with the rest of their ecosystem.

Better in what way? Being able to shrink a desktop? Who is asking for that?

These dual slot card come with some amazing cooling solutions.

Come on, every one of those coolers are crap. A 2" deep heat sink with tiny fans shoved in it venting out little slits in the back of the card is not enough to adequately cool a 200+ W GPU. I have a GTX 1080 with one of those dual fan solutions and the thing is still loud under load and its only a 180 W card. Apple could put a 6" deep block of aluminum on it and it would be absolutely silent.

 

[koyoot]

It's already different, because Apple execs sat down and admitted that they'd misjudged technology and the market, and pre-announced something a year or so in advance.

And an earlier comment here (paraphrased) was "maybe a 500 watt power supply to meet energy standards".

I see that as an ice cube's chance in hell, since the amigos said that customers want big, powerful graphics cards. (I hope that they heard that in the plural, not that they heard "customers want one big, powerful graphics card"....)

There are few interesting GPUs that you can put in a system with a 500 watt power supply. I just received twenty 1080Ti cards with 6+8 power connectors. And all of them are going in as four 1080Ti cards per system.

Really, go back and re-read the interview with the amigos. It doesn't sound like they are working on Cube 3.0 - hold their feet to the fire.

It appears everybody is reading in their words, their own "expectations" of what Mac Pro should be.

The biggest clue.
If Apple is building 8K@60 Hz monitor to work with all of their hardware, across the board, there is no chance for standard PCIe cards, unless they will have USB-C/Thunderbolt connectors added instead of DP/HDMI ports.

All the rest is speculation from all of you what you want Mac Pro to be.

That's no choice in the GPU vendor - you buy GPUs from Apple. If Apple decides not to release upgrades - nada.

T-Bolt has been a horrible mistake on the desktop. Retire it. Why did Intel let Apple convince them to require display signals over T-Bolt?
[doublepost=1494281408][/doublepost]
Better in what way? Being able to shrink a desktop? Who is asking for that?

These dual slot card come with some amazing cooling solutions.
[doublepost=1494281651][/doublepost]
GPU makers seem to be able to feed driver updates into the Windows Update stream just fine. Often delayed by a few weeks due to the additional testing - but "it just works".

And Windows users don't worry about a boot screen - because only Apple uses a proprietary old (and bastardized) version of EFI instead of the almost universally supported UEFI

I have to quote this.

And you have said to me that I am living in a surreal world? The laughs continues. Im sorry Aiden, you are making Apple platform what it is not. When you will woke up, and look at it from broader point of view, rather than your perception of it?

Enterprise market is difficult to handle. Rather than cars they want faster horses. Nothing else.