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Isn't the more alarming thing here that all the 3D dccs are going to have to rewrite their app in Metal? Should I not be concerned about that?

I was under the impression that even if the Mac Pro arrives next year, has open pci-e slots, and Nvidia are welcomed back, almost all the apps the 3D crowd rely on are another gamble altogether.

It's just as likely I don't know what I'm talking about and this is a non issue. But as time goes on it seems the writing is not only on the wall, but the street, lamp post, and mail boxes too.

..oop gomac - great minds, etc
 
Isn't the more alarming thing here that all the 3D dccs are going to have to rewrite their app in Metal? Should I not be concerned about that?

They get to rewrite no matter what. DX11 is on the way out. OpenGL is on the way out. Mac doesn't change that, it's just moving on from OGL like everyone else. Linux, Windows, and macOS are all dropping OpenGL at varying speeds.
 
As a possible replacement for my cMP, I spec'd out the 6-core i5 MacMini with 32GB memory and 2TB storage, and it came to a cool $3099 before CA sales tax. Yikes. Add a QWERTY with numpad, another $150. Add trackpad, another $150.


The 2TB storage BTO options is the killer. For $1400 can probably do much better

OWC Express 4M2 $350 https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/TB3EX4M2SL/
A 2TB M.2 Samsung 970 at OWC $670

That is $1,020 for more total storage capacity since still have the 256GB for the OS/Apps/Home_dir drive. And still have 3 more M.2 slots. Apple's BTO SSD pricing is really does defeat the objective of trying to get folks off of HDDs and on to SSDs sooner rather than later. The external enclosure is actually cheaper here (for all the Thunderbolt moaners); that the kind of skew Apple is layers on their 2TB solution.


Going to Apple's BTO pages and just picking all of the top option choices is just emptying pockets into Appel's Scrooge McDuck money (hoarding ) pit. You don't "have to" do it.

MacMini at MacPro prices. I can see where this is going. Base MacPro is gonna be $6K

base versus 'max' BTO everything are two widely price points for all of Apple's Mac products. Apple isn't putting the base of the Mac Pro over those BTOs any more they they are going to put the base of the standard iMacs over the Mini BTO . That's isn't what they have done ( or likely will do).


The base Mac Pro probably won't drop far below the $2,999 point though. A SSD will be standard. They probably won't have a "extra small" base option. Base memory will probably be 32GB (like the iMac Pro too). I suspect any of the "cost savings' of dropping a 2nd standard config GPU will be plowed back into other components. However, if Apple started with 6 cores they could go a bit over the $2,999 point. Where they could screw things up royally is if they decide they "have to" start with 8 cores. That would be dubious ( the Mac Pro wouldn't purely be in a core count 'war' with the Mini and/or iMacs ).

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well that's something.

It's probably not that bad. If they're already having to do DirectX 11 and OpenGL, they probably can add new graphics engines without too much trouble. Their apps are designed to take on new graphics APIs already.

The OpenGL only apps that have bolted themselves right in to OpenGL will be in more trouble.
 
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As a possible replacement for my cMP, I spec'd out the 6-core i5 MacMini with 32GB memory and 2TB storage, and it came to a cool $3099 before CA sales tax. Yikes. Add a QWERTY with numpad, another $150. Add trackpad, another $150.

Maxed out, with the i7, 64GB memory, 2TB storage, and the 10Gbit Ethernet, it's $4199, before tax.

MacMini at MacPro prices. I can see where this is going. Base MacPro is gonna be $6K

I'd done a fairly similar build ... i7 with 64GB and 0.5TB and it was $3K.

I'd have to go check receipts, but that's close to what I'd originally spent for a Mac Pro some 4-5 Moore's Law cycles ago.
 
Mac line up seems disjointed overall after this event. The MacBook Air now occupies essentially the same price points (slightly low actually) as the MacBook with only small differences in size and slightly more functionality. I can't imagine who in the world is buying a MacBook after this. Then the Mac Mini with 4 core base models and 6 core top end models, which appear to be the desktop class processors, are poised to be faster than the iMacs. Granted the iMacs have those wonderful screens, but you have to think the 21 inch iMacs look like really bad buys right now.

We'll see if it clears up. I'd say even though they added a new product to the cluster, it's still better than it was a week ago, since the $1199 MBA is a more compelling product than the retina MacBook. But until and even when they get it down to $999 or $1099 the $1299 region is going to remain a mess. Given that you can get a more capable machine with more ports that's still thinner and lighter than the MacBook Pro and the MacBook Air it replaces, I don't see the point of the retina MacBook. I'm guessing it probably has its small hardcore contingent just like the cheap Airs. Hopefully in another year we finally see them cut all that stuff down back to the simple MBA/MBP dichotomy.

On the plus side, they actually killed the $499 Mac mini rather than leaving around some version of it alongside the $799 model. I think from an actual user experience standpoint it's much better to have a more expensive "good" model that is actually good than a price-point-hitting model that you wouldn't recommend anyone buy unless they really just don't care about performance at all.

On the down side, I don't begrudge them selling 128GB models, but I do begrudge them charging $200 to double that. Yeah, it's faster than it was in 2014, but those BTO prices have still remained unchanged.

Agreed .
I'm also getting concerned that Apple might start to believe their own gospel, that tablets can be serious tools and content creators .

That dubious Photoshop presentation had one clear message to the industry - don't count on Apple to cater to professionals . At least that's how it will be percieved, with no word on MPs and the silly expensive Minis ( in usable configuration ) .
What exactly about the Photoshop demo did you find 'dubious'?


On the Mac Pro side of things, do we have any concrete details on when at least the -W Xeons are hitting? Seems like that's the most germane point to possible iMac Pros and Mac Pros than anything else, but finding that stuff feels way harder than it should be (I end up with rumor sites from six months ago with leaked roadmaps that might have changed, etc.)

The hypothetical Mac Mini I'd get would be $1599 with the processor upgrade, 512GB storage, and 10gE (plus the cost of 32GB RAM, which looks like around $300ish.) That still beats my Mac Pro by 40–50% in single and multi-core Geekbench. I was actually quite impressed with the performance of my Mac mini when I was using it for design and graphics work, it looks like it'll be a pretty good machine for people assuming you don't need GPU power.
 
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Ah b******* sorry guys, I had some hopes. Still at least the Mini wasn’t killed off! Actually the Mini got a nice power boost! Hmm tempting buy... stick an EGPU on it. Although will it run Windows with that new security chip with an EGPU hmm..
 
Anyone going to replace their Mac Pro with the new mini? The little thing is actually quite impressive. But it's about $2000 in a decent configuration and if you add the new Blackmagic eGPU Pro that makes it about $3200. That's probably close to the 2019 Mac Pro base price so I'll wait for that still. I imagine it could still take inexpensive pulled server ram. The Mac mini so-dimms are quite expensive.
I prefer to jump of the wagon, with less than 4000$ I got 16 cores threadripper 128gb ECC RAM 2 tb SSD {2x 1tb raid 0) and dual rtx2080 with nvlink , I still can run macos insides a VM or on esxi using intel cpu, add this a thermaltake Level 20 case if you can't live w/o style.
 
Isn't the more alarming thing here that all the 3D dccs are going to have to rewrite their app in Metal? Should I not be concerned about that?

We have a 3D solution: AMD ProRender Engine. The Plug-in is already available for a number of 3D apps. Add in the ability to use either AMD or Nvidia GPUs as well as the ability to use multiple GPUs (and CPUs and system memory) as 1 3D render solution.
 
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Anyone have spotted that Apple added BlackMagic eGPU Pro with Vega 56 8GB to their Apple Store?
 
Wow for all you guys that want to buy 3rd party stuff for your puters you sure price stuff out using Apple's stuff a lot.

Man, it doesn't matter if I know I'll never buy a product. Min/maxing the BTO configurators is like a tech nerd's version of dress up :p

Mac line up seems disjointed overall after this event. The MacBook Air now occupies essentially the same price points (slightly low actually) as the MacBook with only small differences in size and slightly more functionality. I can't imagine who in the world is buying a MacBook after this. Then the Mac Mini with 4 core base models and 6 core top end models, which appear to be the desktop class processors, are poised to be faster than the iMacs. Granted the iMacs have those wonderful screens, but you have to think the 21 inch iMacs look like really bad buys right now.
Double quoting you, but one other point—the 21" iMacs have been a comparatively bad deal for years at this point, in that the cost of BTO upgrades makes getting a 27" model far more cost-effective. I'm not really sure what causes this, although time and time again (such as the original LED iMacs and then the 5K iMac) Apple has sold iMacs at a cost where you were basically buying a computer and getting a heavily subsidized monitor thrown in (even now the 5K iMacs are a pretty great deal when you compare them to equivalent 5K panels.)

You can't really get a high-end 21" iMac, and for the price you spend bumping it (even assuming you cracked it open and did some upgrades yourself) you're almost always better off with the 27".
 
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Well hell. Wrong discussion but why not.

I still have my trashcan MP but I went ahead and purchased a new Mini with the i7.

Depending on the model the i7 stomps on the 2013 Mac Pros, so I don't begrudge you :p
 
Depending on the model the i7 stomps on the 2013 Mac Pros, so I don't begrudge you :p

  • 3.2 GHz Intel Core i7 Six-Core
  • 8GB of 2666 MHz DDR4 RAM
  • Integrated Intel UHD Graphics 630
  • 128GB PCIe SSD
I’m gonna look around for the best deal on the eGPU and buy my own memory.

Guarantee you it won’t come to $4000 either !
 
I'll wait for a little more info about the 3.2 GHz 6-core i7 (is that really an unlimited full-performance desktop chip in that small package?). I'd buy the 128 GB SSD just for booting because I will definitely need a separate external chassis for SSDs and HDs anyway. I also don't know anything about the Intel 630 graphics so do I need a eGPU box to drive 3 monitors (1 x 4K, 2 x 1080p? And how easy is it to upgrade the RAM? Can I get to it through the trap door or do I have pry this thing apart to get to the DIMMs (hate that)?

So lots of questions before I buy. But $1099 for the base product with 3.2 GHz 6-core, + cost of DIY RAM upgrade, + cost of external storage box is probably still a lot less than the new "Modular" MP will be (I'm guessing a base price with 16 GB RAM at $5K, same as iMac Pro base price). And then if the mMP turns out great I can use the Mini sans eGPU and with less external storage for something else. But my guess is the new mMP will will be about as "modular" as the Mini, just with a better base GPU before you need to add eGPU, and little if any upgradeable SSDs. I'd be surprised if it had any internal PCIe at all.
 
I'll wait for a little more info about the 3.2 GHz 6-core i7 (is that really an unlimited full-performance desktop chip in that small package?). I'd buy the 128 GB SSD just for booting because I will definitely need a separate external chassis for SSDs and HDs anyway. I also don't know anything about the Intel 630 graphics so do I need a eGPU box to drive 3 monitors (1 x 4K, 2 x 1080p? And how easy is it to upgrade the RAM? Can I get to it through the trap door or do I have pry this thing apart to get to the DIMMs (hate that)?

So lots of questions before I buy. But $1099 for the base product with 3.2 GHz 6-core, + cost of DIY RAM upgrade, + cost of external storage box is probably still a lot less than the new "Modular" MP will be (I'm guessing a base price with 16 GB RAM at $5K, same as iMac Pro base price). And then if the mMP turns out great I can use the Mini sans eGPU and with less external storage for something else. But my guess is the new mMP will will be about as "modular" as the Mini, just with a better base GPU before you need to add eGPU, and little if any upgradeable SSDs. I'd be surprised if it had any internal PCIe at all.

The PCIe is soldered on
The CPU is the mobile version I’m guessing from what I saw in the photos and the memory sticks are easy to get to .

Not really concerned about the soldered on PCIe drive since I’ll be using external storage. Having 4 TB 3 ports is nice depending on the lane bandwidth.
I already have four displays so no need to buy a monitor.
 
We'll see if it clears up. I'd say even though they added a new product to the cluster, it's still better than it was a week ago, since the $1199 MBA is a more compelling product than the retina MacBook. But until and even when they get it down to $999 or $1099 the $1299 region is going to remain a mess. Given that you can get a more capable machine with more ports that's still thinner and lighter than the MacBook Pro and the MacBook Air it replaces, I don't see the point of the retina MacBook. I'm guessing it probably has its small hardcore contingent just like the cheap Airs. Hopefully in another year we finally see them cut all that stuff down back to the simple MBA/MBP dichotomy.

On the plus side, they actually killed the $499 Mac mini rather than leaving around some version of it alongside the $799 model. I think from an actual user experience standpoint it's much better to have a more expensive "good" model that is actually good than a price-point-hitting model that you wouldn't recommend anyone buy unless they really just don't care about performance at all.

On the down side, I don't begrudge them selling 128GB models, but I do begrudge them charging $200 to double that. Yeah, it's faster than it was in 2014, but those BTO prices have still remained unchanged.

I guess if the upgrade was like $100 or less, it wouldn't bother me as much, but 128GB is just soooo small these days. And I hear your point about not selling a trash computer, but isn't 128GB just kind of too small to recommend? Isn't there a reason why 128GB was never really an option on Apple's computers? Its always been fusion drives or 256GB+ SSDs. But now in a computer with the space for a fusion drive, we have 128? It makes no damn sense, except as a money grab. Hike the base price, but gimp it just enough to push people to the higher model. And once you add in the 256GB, the i5 is nearly free. The whole situation is lame.

Double quoting you, but one other point—the 21" iMacs have been a comparatively bad deal for years at this point, in that the cost of BTO upgrades makes getting a 27" model far more cost-effective. I'm not really sure what causes this, although time and time again (such as the original LED iMacs and then the 5K iMac) Apple has sold iMacs at a cost where you were basically buying a computer and getting a heavily subsidized monitor thrown in (even now the 5K iMacs are a pretty great deal when you compare them to equivalent 5K panels.)

You can't really get a high-end 21" iMac, and for the price you spend bumping it (even assuming you cracked it open and did some upgrades yourself) you're almost always better off with the 27".

The argument for the 21" was always that its the easiest way into a 'full' computer. Sure the BTOs are silly, but the 4K base 21" iMac isn't a gimped computer (the non-4K sure as sheet is), just get the fusion drive for $90. The base is a 5400 HDD, but the $90 upgrade fixes that and the price is still at a reasonable point, $1339 for capable computer, with a good screen and minimally requisite peripherals. I know its absurd given alternatives, but the iMacs contain the Magic mouse and keyboard, that's $180 dollars to add to the Mac Mini. Throw in a 24 Dell and its another $300-350. That more or less matches the 21" iMac price. And maybe that's where this is coming from. But we're a year removed from that computer. The i3-8100 retails for about $65 less than the i5-7400 in the iMac, the true equivalent processor would be the 6 core i5 in Mac Mini. Moving to that model actually takes care of the next issue, storage. For $1049 + $180 (mouse/keyboard) + $350 (Dell monitor) = $1579, you've more or less recreated what should be an up-to-date 21" iMac with the 256 SSD that goes for $1429 (assuming pricing wouldn't move).

Now to me, this confirms my original position that the Mac Mini is just plain overpriced, and probably by at least $100, maybe up to $200. That's not trivial, percentage wise, for an $800-1000 computer.
 
We have a 3D solution: AMD ProRender Engine. The Plug-in is already available for a number of 3D apps. Add in the ability to use either AMD or Nvidia GPUs as well as the ability to use multiple GPUs (and CPUs and system memory) as 1 3D render solution.

Prorender is a long time off being production ready. Or anything ready. It’s essentially a tech demo at the moment. I wish this were a viable option, but it’s not.
 
I'll wait for a little more info about the 3.2 GHz 6-core i7 (is that really an unlimited full-performance desktop chip in that small package?). I'd buy the 128 GB SSD just for booting because I will definitely need a separate external chassis for SSDs and HDs anyway. I also don't know anything about the Intel 630 graphics so do I need a eGPU box to drive 3 monitors (1 x 4K, 2 x 1080p? And how easy is it to upgrade the RAM? Can I get to it through the trap door or do I have pry this thing apart to get to the DIMMs (hate that)?

So lots of questions before I buy. But $1099 for the base product with 3.2 GHz 6-core, + cost of DIY RAM upgrade, + cost of external storage box is probably still a lot less than the new "Modular" MP will be (I'm guessing a base price with 16 GB RAM at $5K, same as iMac Pro base price). And then if the mMP turns out great I can use the Mini sans eGPU and with less external storage for something else. But my guess is the new mMP will will be about as "modular" as the Mini, just with a better base GPU before you need to add eGPU, and little if any upgradeable SSDs. I'd be surprised if it had any internal PCIe at all.
The PCIe is soldered on
The CPU is the mobile version I’m guessing from what I saw in the photos and the memory sticks are easy to get to .

Not really concerned about the soldered on PCIe drive since I’ll be using external storage. Having 4 TB 3 ports is nice depending on the lane bandwidth.
I already have four displays so no need to buy a monitor.

I know the SSD is soldered on. I don't care. I said I will go minimum size because I need 6-8 more external disks (SSD and HD).

I heard during the presentation that it was a desktop version of the CPU, not mobile. But it could still be throttled by thermal considerations.

It wasn't clear whether the DIMMs are easy to get to or not. They were visible (barely) in one picture but appeared covered by fan and heatsink in another picture. So not clear to me if user assessable or not.
 
The PCIe is soldered on
The CPU is the mobile version I’m guessing from what I saw in the photos and the memory sticks are easy to get to .

Not really concerned about the soldered on PCIe drive since I’ll be using external storage. Having 4 TB 3 ports is nice depending on the lane bandwidth.
I already have four displays so no need to buy a monitor.

They specifically emphasized that the new MacMini has desktop CPU’s, not mobile.
 
I guess if the upgrade was like $100 or less, it wouldn't bother me as much, but 128GB is just soooo small these days. And I hear your point about not selling a trash computer, but isn't 128GB just kind of too small to recommend? Isn't there a reason why 128GB was never really an option on Apple's computers? Its always been fusion drives or 256GB+ SSDs. But now in a computer with the space for a fusion drive, we have 128? It makes no damn sense, except as a money grab. Hike the base price, but gimp it just enough to push people to the higher model. And once you add in the 256GB, the i5 is nearly free. The whole situation is lame.
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Not at all. I have 5 internal disks and 2 external disks on my Mac Pro. I want to pay as little as possible for a Mac mini internal SSD since I have to have external drives anyway. The 128 GB is fine for basically a boot-only disk.
 
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