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I think consumers crave transparency and knowledge into upcoming product offerings and company commitments to product lines, probably for very good reasons. I can understand why large companies want to be quiet and maybe non committal ( agility ). It's fun to see how the communications play out.
I disagree in part.

While consumers may crave transparency, enterprise buyers are forecasting purchases for the next year or more -- and *demand* to see roadmaps. If you're buying millions per year in CapEx - you want the best information possible for fiscal planning. The "one more thing" mentality from the Jobs' era has never worked for the enterprise.

Apple is (and has been) *horrendous* at providing NDA presentations to customers. Since Apple has utterly abandoned the server market, and has de facto abandoned the workstation market - it's no longer that much of an issue.

We know Apple won't meet our needs for workstations and servers, so we buy elsewhere. For client desktops and laptops, Apple has some mediocre offerings. (Mediocre because of the constant churn in port standards requiring a hundred or two more dollars extra per system for dongles, and the horrific keyboards on the last couple generations of laptops.)
 
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I disagree in part.

While consumers may crave transparency, enterprise buyers are forecasting purchases for the next year or more -- and *demand* to see roadmaps. If you're buying millions per year in CapEx - you want the best information possible for fiscal planning. The "one more thing" mentality from the Jobs' era has never worked for the enterprise.

No I agree with you, I used the wrong terms. By consumers I meant 'buyers' including enterprise. By 'large companies' I meant 'producers', ie Apple in this case.
 
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I’ve wanted many things in the upcoming MacPro, but in the end I think I’d settle for two.

1...at least two pcie slots where I can put two powerful graphics cards in, and then replace in a couple years.

2...more than one physical internal drive, be it flash or whatever.

Those are my most critical requests at this point.
 
If the nMP is a failure from the start or DoA, it might be worth it to Apple to license macOS to HP and Dell for their higher end high end workstations, the ones that start at several thousand. Maybe make it a $1,000 license. HP sales will climb even further and Apple can pocket $1,000 for doing **** all.
 
I’ve wanted many things in the upcoming MacPro, but in the end I think I’d settle for two.

1...at least two pcie slots where I can put two powerful graphics cards in, and then replace in a couple years.

2...more than one physical internal drive, be it flash or whatever.

Those are my most critical requests at this point.

cast your eyes back over the old Powermac 6500 - though unloved in its time, it has a design (probably not style) philosophy that bears a striking resemblance to what a lot of people are asking for.
 
I've long wondered about this approach - if trillion-dollar Apple doesn't want to deal with a couple of specialist markets that are profitable, but not worth the time for a company Apple's size to deal with, why not pick a couple of partners to license MacOS to (with restrictions on what they can put it on). Unlike the last time they licensed MacOS, it's not the company's crown jewel any more - Apple is a smartphone company that makes some nice computers as a side project...

Certainly the obvious place to start is in desktop/deskside workstations, where there is a need for quite a few configurations, none of which sell very many units. If I were Tim Cook, I'd make MacOS a reasonably priced option (the reason for having these machines is to have high profile work done on MacOS, not for a huge profit). When I just looked at an HP Z4 with the same processor as the entry iMac Pro, the version of Windows for Workstations it needs adds $375 over "Linux-ready" - no OS. That means that Apple could charge $400 for MacOS and have it be only a $25 upcharge over Windows (unless you want a dual-boot, in which case MacOS adds $400).

I'd use something like these rules:

1.) Xeon machines only (at least as powerful as the entry iMac Pro) - they want to channel the average consumer into an iMac, because Apple really believes all-in-ones are less trouble. They could choose whether to allow Threadrippers, which might be an interesting idea if it's not hard to implement in MacOS.

If you set the minimum processor at a Xeon-W, it's no longer competing with any iMac except the iMac Pro. Interestingly, a Z4 with the specs of an iMac Pro is substantially more expensive than an iMac Pro (match everything except the storage, and it's around the same price - but it has a 1 TB hard drive instead of a superfast SSD) - even before dealing with the screen. High-end custom PC builder Puget Systems does a lot better, but won't match the specs exactly (HEDT processor instead of closely related Xeon, NVidia instead of AMD). A "mostly comparable" Puget machine is around $4000, leaving the monitor premium around $1000.

2.) No NVidia - Apple doesn't want to write drivers for NVidia, and they don't consider NVidia's drivers stable enough...

3.) Apple might supply T2 chips to these vendors (this is optional - not supplying T2 means not locking MacOS down to T2 only in the future)...

4.) A few carefully selected vendors - this isn't a license to build cheap machines that cause support headaches. Maybe start with HP for big accounts and somebody like Puget for individual creatives.

If they like what they get, there are two reasonable expansions...

1.) License 15" and 17" workstation laptops - start with HP and/or Lenovo. This affects the MBP 15", but not lower down the scale, and it'll make a lot of pros who want ThinkPad hardware with a few more ports, but prefer MacOS, happy.

2.) Legitimize Hackintoshes???? sell MacOS with no tech support for $150 - it comes with the drivers it comes with, so you aren't getting that GeForce RTX running unless you write a driver... Since vendors won't be allowed to sell unsupported cards, NVidia won't bother to write drivers
 
Even with the hefty margins Macs are earning, Apple already feels no motivation to push the platform as much as it could. Why would they even be interested in licensing the OS out which creates fragmentation and (software) support complications while earning less without hardware sales.

Just look at how the T2 chip is being pushed across all Macs, while it together with Mojave have been creating Kernel Panics and then audio interface incompatibilities where Apple seems unable or uninterested to solve. I don't know how Apple's priority list looks like nowadays, but it certainly doesn't have traditional professional users high on that list.

It actually made much more sense pre-2017 roundtable, when we all thought Apple was walking out of computer business.
 
I've long wondered about this approach - if trillion-dollar Apple doesn't want to deal with a couple of specialist markets that are profitable, but not worth the time for a company Apple's size to deal with, why not pick a couple of partners to license MacOS to (with restrictions on what they can put it on). Unlike the last time they licensed MacOS, it's not the company's crown jewel any more - Apple is a smartphone company that makes some nice computers as a side project...

Certainly the obvious place to start is in desktop/deskside workstations, where there is a need for quite a few configurations, none of which sell very many units. If I were Tim Cook, I'd make MacOS a reasonably priced option (the reason for having these machines is to have high profile work done on MacOS, not for a huge profit). When I just looked at an HP Z4 with the same processor as the entry iMac Pro, the version of Windows for Workstations it needs adds $375 over "Linux-ready" - no OS. That means that Apple could charge $400 for MacOS and have it be only a $25 upcharge over Windows (unless you want a dual-boot, in which case MacOS adds $400).

I'd use something like these rules:

1.) Xeon machines only (at least as powerful as the entry iMac Pro) - they want to channel the average consumer into an iMac, because Apple really believes all-in-ones are less trouble. They could choose whether to allow Threadrippers, which might be an interesting idea if it's not hard to implement in MacOS.

If you set the minimum processor at a Xeon-W, it's no longer competing with any iMac except the iMac Pro. Interestingly, a Z4 with the specs of an iMac Pro is substantially more expensive than an iMac Pro (match everything except the storage, and it's around the same price - but it has a 1 TB hard drive instead of a superfast SSD) - even before dealing with the screen. High-end custom PC builder Puget Systems does a lot better, but won't match the specs exactly (HEDT processor instead of closely related Xeon, NVidia instead of AMD). A "mostly comparable" Puget machine is around $4000, leaving the monitor premium around $1000.

2.) No NVidia - Apple doesn't want to write drivers for NVidia, and they don't consider NVidia's drivers stable enough...

3.) Apple might supply T2 chips to these vendors (this is optional - not supplying T2 means not locking MacOS down to T2 only in the future)...

4.) A few carefully selected vendors - this isn't a license to build cheap machines that cause support headaches. Maybe start with HP for big accounts and somebody like Puget for individual creatives.

If they like what they get, there are two reasonable expansions...

1.) License 15" and 17" workstation laptops - start with HP and/or Lenovo. This affects the MBP 15", but not lower down the scale, and it'll make a lot of pros who want ThinkPad hardware with a few more ports, but prefer MacOS, happy.

2.) Legitimize Hackintoshes???? sell MacOS with no tech support for $150 - it comes with the drivers it comes with, so you aren't getting that GeForce RTX running unless you write a driver... Since vendors won't be allowed to sell unsupported cards, NVidia won't bother to write drivers
Locking out AMD CPU's will lead to some anti trust issues. Also cpu level locks are not really needed.
Maybe an TX pci-e card at $350-$400 that is the mac os key. Do not put storage on it let it boot any UEFI device or even boot from an hardware raid card if needed.
Do not force an TB bus or if it must have TB then let them use an loop back cable from the video card.

mac os x server for VM's on any base hardware (no TX card needed makes live migration work) say $300-$500+
 
If you need Mac Pro level of use over years, you're better off going for the HP Z8 series workstations. Some of their AiOs offer Xeon, too, like the iMac Pro. The Z8, when fully loaded, costs a little under $108,000 USD. Nothing to sneeze at, but if some of you work for large organizations who would foot the bill, then why not? Or ask Santa Aidan for it.

What I find truly hilarious is that Apple employees from Cupertino supposedly read this site and were exposed as doing so years ago. So you would hope that come June, their engineers aren't as thick as two short planks and release a dud product.

Of course, this is Apple. If they don't release a dud product, they manage to mess up a good one.


Courage (TM).



Edit: And honestly I wouldn't just look at Dell or HP, fellas. I'm sure more companies like Puget Systems exist to offer as good or a better product without getting stuck with an OEM board that'll cause you issues down the road.
 
Admitting I'm ignorant on the various broadcast tech and system bottlenecks that crunch the dataflow. I'm going to assume something like an external blackmagic decklink on TB with internal storage to buffer, connected to an imac pro or 'blackbox imacpro 2,1 ?

Ingesting 'day old' movie camera footage from a remote set isn't exactly the wheelhouse of the "National Association of Broadcasters". On the fly, live ingest of 8K-10K camera uncompressed footage from tethered cameras is a different ball game.

Look at the specs for the single 8k camera Declink

" ... PCI Express 8 lane generation 3, compatible with 8, 16 lane PCI Express slots ... "
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/decklink/techspecs/W-DLK-34

if you go to the support page for the 8K model for what specific hardware systems.
" ... Supported Hardware... "
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/note/9568
That supported hardware section is completely blank of anything Mac right now. Zip. nothing.
Windows and Linux. ....... No macOS at all. That is currently a hole in the line up. NAB '19 it will still be a hole. When the "data hog footprint" cameras step up to 10K it will just be worse if Apple rigidly sticks to their current track.

Broadcasting 8K is pretty close to a solution in search of a problem, but folks are going down that rabbit hole.

Is the Mac product line up going to collapse if they don't fill that hole? No. Apple moving to focusing on "dailies" ingested from sneaker-net gathered camera drives can, does, and probably will work over time. Internet only "national" broadcasters are more than happy with 4K as an upper boundary for the immediate future. When Apple is a "national" broadcaster with their own streaming service ..... that could change their viewpoint of what the core of what National broadcasting is.


Can see GPU/Storage solutions being showcased, mentioned it from the start even :)

You are talking about Apple demoing cherry picked solutions that fit what they have. I'm more so talking about competitor solutions that have better economics and are aligned with the other infrastructure in future deployment. ( 2+ GPUs in a single box. not spread over 2+ ePGU boxes and bigger internal "working set" data capacity with overall system racked with discrete monitors. )


I think Apple wanted the imacpro to be the 'next macpro', I'd argue that Apple wants out of this space you think the next macpro should exist in.

Which Mac Pro? The iMac Pro to be the next Mac Pro 2013? Yes, there is substantially high overlap there in targeting. As Apple said explicitly they saw a substantive number of folks going from PowerMac and early Mac Pros to iMacs. ( e.g., some folks just wanted a desktop that "just worked". Not a tinker box. Not "has to look like my PC from 5-10 years ago" . Just plug-in ... good contemporary desktop processor performance, and simply just use it. ). The iMac is a more refinement of major portion of what the Mac Pro 2013 covered.

I don't think Apple thought they were completely covering the old market that the Power Mac / Mac Pro covered with the iMac Pro (or the MP 2013) . In fact, it is covering even less space than the Mac Pro 2013 did ( folks with hyper preference for non Apple monitor (including headless). Inherent desire for a 2 GPU set up. multiple tenant virtualization , "better than" SSD of performance than contemporary Macs. (iMac Pro is roughly same range as the MBP 2018 models ... as long as only one internal SSD it is going to be hard to gap significantly) , etc. )

It isn't so much that Apple wants to get out. It is whether the market is shrinking as people move to new generations of technology. Folks moved from Mainframes , to "Mini" Computers (really mid size) , to "personal" computers desktops , to personal "laptops" , to handheld computers. Which trends are up and which ones are down ( or grossly stagnant) coupled with opportunity and profitability. Being in something largely as "place holder" to a 'wide' line up isn't really an objective for Apple. ( and that isn't really a change since the "return of Jobs". ... been a couple of decades at this point. )


There are lots of workloads where Apple has no horse, ie enterprise outside of extreme niche ( that one mac mini datacenter ).

There are lots of lower end Mac where Apple has no horse either. the Mini is out of the $300-700 desktop computer market. There is no $500-700 laptop. No xMac. etc. The data center really doesn't make much sense for a GUI focused operation system. In the standard context there is no operator sitting in front of the GUI console of the server. Mac colocation is more small-medium business thing than enterprise ("mega war bucks budget" ) one. Have a mix of developers logging into yet another macOS instance (scaled developer seats ) which is distinctly GUI focused or have Q/A test farms ( non GUI per se but have to make them rentable/sharable if not centrally located . That is a shared cost of the system (which keeps Mac avg sales price higher but still affordable after spread the cost. )


The strategic issue for Apple though is that they have designed themselves "into a corner" a couple of times now. That is also coupled with the system upgrade rate is slowing down. Correcting out of the corner is taking longer. If they give themselves a standard PCI-e slot there are more corners they can work themselves out of in a timely fashion. They don't have to rigidly make everything a socket but balancing the system integration better would be a something. [ Even if they need their own card the R&D to do that if they have a reasonable socket to plug into will be less onerous than doing another new system with all of the function units touch points inside of Apple that might loop in. ]



Apple used to have a 'fairly robust' set of server/workstation offerings, hardware and software. Now all they have is a punchline, whether purposeful or reactionary, legitimate or not, it is what it is. It's not so much a criticism as an observation.

That is more criticism than observation. Apple server offerings consisted of a single 1U model. 2-4 U models no. Hot swappable dual power supplies for 24/7/365 uptime. No. 3+ CPU package servers. No. 'hot' RAS/Failover . Not really.

Appleshare (AFP ) and a couple of other Apple specific services really wasn't a robust nucleus. The highly standards based stuff basically feel into the "On the internet nobody knows if you are a dog" category. As long as the correct bits come back it doesn't matter ( more of a 'race to the bottom' and Linux is Free. Not much of a lower bottom than free beer. ).

And workstation offerings. When did they have more than one? Sequel upgrades for a single product is not a robust line up. Actually going to two workstation zone offerings with limited overlap would be robust in the context of mix consumer demand in the workstation sector.

Amiable to tinkering doesn't necessarily make something a robust set .


Without knowing what is going on internally, and just seeing the time slip through the hourglass between what information is shared, I truly hope for 'not consuming too many resources' otherwise they would have had something by now. If they need the time AND modest amount of resources, then I suspect they are aiming for 'revolutionary' and in this particular instance, it will inevitably lead to disappointment ( as modern Apple revolutionary means proprietary or incompatible )

Extremely often folks who are dogmatically devoted to "form over function" label "function over form" as being revolutionary. If in that dogma pragmatically that is somewhat applicable. If not in the dogma then it is more like evolution that revolution.

if there is functional driver as to why something does ends up being proprietary that is far more an example of "function over form".
 
Snip

if you go to the support page for the 8K model for what specific hardware systems.
" ... Supported Hardware... "
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/note/9568

Snip

I'm sorry, but I think at this point it is unlikely that Apple is going to introduce a product that competes with the offerings on that list. Now I appreciate your lust for pedantry, so I ask for forgiveness beforehand. I didn't do an exhaustive search of the certified hardware list, so I could be very well be wrong. But if this is the 'spot' that the macPro needs to occupy; I'd invite you over to sit in front of a nice warm fire, on a beautiful winter evening where we can both dip our forks in a warm pot wishful thinking fondue.

Snip

Is the Mac product line up going to collapse if they don't fill that hole? No. Apple moving to focusing on "dailies" ingested from sneaker-net gathered camera drives can, does, and probably will work over time. Internet only "national" broadcasters are more than happy with 4K as an upper boundary for the immediate future. When Apple is a "national" broadcaster with their own streaming service ..... that could change their viewpoint of what the core of what National broadcasting is.

Snip

Ok good, I don't know how to make wishful thinking fondue. However, I'm going to take a wild guess here; Apple services don't run on Apple hardware/os. I don't see why Apple broadcasting services would need to either.


It isn't so much that Apple wants to get out. It is whether the market is shrinking as people move to new generations of technology. Folks moved from Mainframes , to "Mini" Computers (really mid size) , to "personal" computers desktops , to personal "laptops" , to handheld computers. Which trends are up and which ones are down ( or grossly stagnant) coupled with opportunity and profitability. Being in something largely as "place holder" to a 'wide' line up isn't really an objective for Apple. ( and that isn't really a change since the "return of Jobs". ... been a couple of decades at this point. )

Folks had mainframes ? You know, I really would like a DEC VAX in my powder room, would make such a great conversation piece.

Not very many of the tasks that are mainframey are being done to today's handhelds. I don't see IBM offering transaction queue solutions on a cluster of whatever Samsung phones. No coffee house full of ipad pros syncing/correlating radio telescope interferometry data. No swipe left to render airline scheduling. This is obvious, not sure why I even bring it up. I guess trends and opportunities and all sorts of other 'inputs' feeding back into a function type thingy

Snip

The data center really doesn't make much sense for a GUI focused operation system. In the standard context there is no operator sitting in front of the GUI console of the server.

Snip

Someone tell all the windows guys hogging my vm infrastructure ! They even run databases on GUI systems .. oh the nerve.


The strategic issue for Apple though is that they have designed themselves "into a corner" a couple of times now. That is also coupled with the system upgrade rate is slowing down. Correcting out of the corner is taking longer. If they give themselves a standard PCI-e slot there are more corners they can work themselves out of in a timely fashion. They don't have to rigidly make everything a socket but balancing the system integration better would be a something. [ Even if they need their own card the R&D to do that if they have a reasonable socket to plug into will be less onerous than doing another new system with all of the function units touch points inside of Apple that might loop in. ]

insert some statement of agreement here


That is more criticism than observation. Apple server offerings consisted of a single 1U model. 2-4 U models no. Hot swappable dual power supplies for 24/7/365 uptime. No. 3+ CPU package servers. No. 'hot' RAS/Failover . Not really.

Apparently my use of 'single quotes' didn't trigger your sarcasm senses. 'fairly robust' relative to Apple. Apple has had Centris/Quadra/Performa/PowerMac/G3.. geeze even the SE30, where they had variants that 'could fit' in server/workstation roles. Whether for little elementary school's computer labs, to small municipality civic planning offices, etc... I'm not talking System/360 level stuff.

Someone earlier posted a nice graphic with a football net on wheels. I've stated previously that Apple has no business ( in computers ) in enterprise outside of standard desktop ornaments.


Snip

Linux is Free. Not much of a lower bottom than free beer.

Snip

Linux is not free. A lot of resources ( time and money ) are being put into it to satisfy feature development etc. It might not be YOUR money that goes into it, even if you use it. But that does not make it free necessarily. But as this notion is quite foreign in this age of dogmatic hayekian hyper capitalism, I won't push on it too hard.

Snip

Extremely often folks who are dogmatically devoted to "form over function" label "function over form" as being revolutionary. If in that dogma pragmatically that is somewhat applicable. If not in the dogma then it is more like evolution that revolution.

if there is functional driver as to why something does ends up being proprietary that is far more an example of "function over form".

To use your own statement above about 'designing yourself into a corner'. In this case 'corner' is poor function. Was it a design constraint or an engineering constraint that necessitated the momentum to that corner ?

Otherwise, this form v function topic too much of a rabbit hole to dig into.


Anyways, I'm done on this. Thanks for the exchange. I see potentials for miscommunications/misunderstandings taking points some places I don't think they need to go, nor want them to. So for the sake of good spirits and cordiality going to cut myself off here.
 
Happy 11,000+ posts everyone.

We'll always have that ! ;)
[doublepost=1550231998][/doublepost]
Is the Mac product line up going to collapse if they don't fill that hole? No. Apple moving to focusing on "dailies" ingested from sneaker-net gathered camera drives can, does, and probably will work over time. Internet only "national" broadcasters are more than happy with 4K as an upper boundary for the immediate future. When Apple is a "national" broadcaster with their own streaming service ..... that could change their viewpoint of what the core of what National broadcasting is.

Here is what I don't get - how can Macs succeed in any part of any particular market, if they can't deliver adequate hardware to that entire market ?

Instead of thinking of Mac/Apple, let's think OSX ( aka macOS ) .
Why would any individual, company or even an industry invest in hardware that comes with a propriatery OS, if the hardware on offer is limited in scope ?
Why use OSX then , and be limited to Macs ?

If one wants/needs to mix and match, it's easier to do with Windows and Linux, considering the hardware choices available for those .

Not to mention the software support OSX has lost and/or not gained due to the a frenetic and misguided update policy on the OS side, and no progress in hardware .
[doublepost=1550232758][/doublepost]
Extremely often folks who are dogmatically devoted to "form over function" label "function over form" as being revolutionary. If in that dogma pragmatically that is somewhat applicable. If not in the dogma then it is more like evolution that revolution.

if there is functional driver as to why something does ends up being proprietary that is far more an example of "function over form".

Fair point ; however, the proprietary solutions which are presented to consumers tend to only benefit the manufacturers and sellers .
Just look at broom handle attachments ....

Proprietary solutions only benefit everyone if they eventually become mainstream - there are no magic bullets .
 
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What's not going happen? The monitor? the Mac Pro? Sorry, but how could you possibly know?
The Mac pro:
https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/17/apple-31-inch-6k-display-mini-led-kuo/
Look at the picture for the 2019 products forecast. The Mac pro is on the list.
[doublepost=1550501144][/doublepost]
The Mac pro:
https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/17/apple-31-inch-6k-display-mini-led-kuo/
Look at the picture for the 2019 products forecast. The Mac pro is on the list but I bet it will not happen this year.
 
I mean, we know the Mac Pro is coming, that's not all that interesting.

The new standalone display being a big 6K one is more interesting. 32" @ 6144x3160 would be the right pixel density for retina. But a single TB3 port can't drive it. Given that their iMacs, Mac minis, and MBPs can't easily drive that many pixels even if you did a dual-cable solution it seems like it could really only be a Mac Pro peripheral, at least for a while.

The idea of a possible resurrection of the 17" MBP in form factor is also interesting.

Not necessarily. If I remember correctly, Mr. Kuo’s sources are chinese suppliers. Maybe the Mac Pro will be produced by a supplier he has no acces to, hence we still may get a new mac pro this year.

Anyway, we’re a couple of months away from the third annual Schillerfest, I guess we’ll find out by then.

One day off of two months, to be specific.
 
The new standalone display being a big 6K one is more interesting. 32" @ 6144x3160 would be the right pixel density for retina. But a single TB3 port can't drive it. Given that their iMacs, Mac minis, and MBPs can't easily drive that many pixels even if you did a dual-cable solution it seems like it could really only be a Mac Pro peripheral, at least for a while.
What if the display has a built-in GPU that acts as a TB3 eGPU for an "unsupported" Mac?
 
What if the display has a built-in GPU that acts as a TB3 eGPU for an "unsupported" Mac?
Interesting. I was going to suggest that unsupported macs could use an egpu, but if the display has one built-in that would maje things easier. And apple could charge even more for the display. Tim Cook smiles.
 
The idea of a possible resurrection of the 17" MBP in form factor is also interesting.

I’d guess the 16” is still roughly the same foot print as the current 15”. There is about a half inch of bezel on each side. There is no mention of the 13 becoming a 14 though. So we’ll see.
 
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