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We had budgeted eGPUs for the MacBooks (most engineers use MacBook Pros) - but Apple's petty feud with Nvidia has killed that. We've been getting Precision workstations instead.

Yeah, it's just getting petty at this point. I can (kind of) understand if Apple does not want to support internal (on-board) nVidia SKUs, but if nVidia is willing to do the work to make a reliable eGPU driver that Apple just needs to approve, they bloody well should be doing it.
 
Not that there's anything wrong with gaming, but how many of the people crying out for NVidia want it for games? Apple doesn't go out of their way to support gaming on the Mac (never has), and sometimes actively discourages it...

There are certainly 3D applications and the like that prefer NVidia as well, but they have much smaller overall userbases than popular games do. Are all the passionate NVidia supporters on here passionate about it due to 3D (or other non-game apps), or are some frustrated would-be Mac gamers?
Gaming, VR, and hash cracking. Nvidia rules the roost in all these areas.

I splash that kind of money for my Mac Pro, I expect to fire up my games in 4k, highest settings without even a thought that my machine can't handle it. It damn well better. Same thing for VR apps. AMD cards are notorious for burning up motherboards during extended hash cracking.

I require Nvidia.
 
A Mac Pro without CUDA support simply won't be a Pro machine. All of the professional creatives in my field (vfx/motion graphics/3D illustration etc) are waiting for a Mac Pro with Nvidia support across multiple GPUs.

How hard does it have to be for Apple to throw a CPU, slots for GPUs and some RAM in a box? No one gives a damn what it looks like or how innovative it is, just let us do some work.

It is beyond the pale how badly Apple have treated their Pro customers. We are struggling along on upgraded cheesegraters and hackintoshes, whilst on the PC side they are blazing ahead on Threadrippers and personal CUDA renderfarms on their desks. Madness.
 
AI and ML might be what is going to save us and force apple to built the pro workstation because at some point if they want IOS to use Apple propritary AI and machine learning, they can do it on machine sold by their opponents in the market. like video or mining, GPU is the only way to do massive parallel computing in AI and ML, and at some point I highly doubt Apple wants to do that calculations on IBM or google servers. the million of data input they have via the IOS device, is a gold mine, and soon or later they will need a apple machine to calculate them.
Like the time they built the xserve just to run their own WebObject **** to deploy itunes and the online apple store... sometime this is just as stupid as George Lucas having dinner with Tim Cook and saying to him « Hey Tim, stop ****ing around, our designers at Lucas film wants new cheesegrater so take your head out of your but and do the right thing ».
 
Yeah, it's just getting petty at this point.

Petty or just collateral damage from 'war' outside the Mac space? Nviidia isn't going to loose any tears if OpenCL and Metel loose ground against CUDA. Nvidia can engage in an "embrace, extend, extinguish" campaign against both of those and made more money in the global space by extending their moat.

On the other side, if Apple is pushed between valuing a subset of Mac Pro space and all of Metal Space ( iOS gaming, Apple arcade , etc. ) again it would be just a collateral damage assessment.

If a battle of who is going to "out leverage' the other side the most both sides here have a quite non-overlapping set of weapons to fight with. They are also both getting much larger sums from other areas so can 'fund' the 'war' for a quite a long time.

Apple pulling signature from Nvidia drivers because they don't comply with Apple's rules and requirements for inclusion in the kernel wouldn't being petty.


I can (kind of) understand if Apple does not want to support internal (on-board) nVidia SKUs, but if nVidia is willing to do the work to make a reliable eGPU driver that Apple just needs to approve, they bloody well should be doing it.

Two issues there.

If there is more than one graphics card in the Mac system instance then "on-board" and "eGPU" don't make much material difference. ( e.g., one Apple default display GPU and second slot Nvidia GPU vs Apple default display GPU(s) and Nvidia GPU in eGPU slot. Both on the same PCI-e bus network once the OS is up and running). Inside/outside-on-TB-bus there isn't much difference. If anything a bit higher on the outside option since probably have to have a small amount of underlying support for disconnection failover.

Second, 'willing to do the work' is key. Before Apple stopped signing the Nvidia drivers would "stop and catch fire" any time Apple releases a minor dot ( _ . _ . X ) update. If their code is not playing fast and loose with API boundaries, interacts inside the 'lines' with all other kernel components , stays away from high reliance on deprecated areas , and does tight integrated development for alpha and small batch betas releases ... then what is the 'stop and catch fire" code really doing? Super duper abundance of caution. Or a significantly uncoordinated development. That latter isn't necessarily "working hard".

If AMD and Intel are participating in the Apple's GPU driver decathlon ( adding Metal features to newer family/generations , satisfying 'work well with others' criteria, sharing info/workload in Apple's dev rollouts in timely fashion , etc. ) then they'll get the wins and at least driver signatures.

You don't see Nvidia proclaiming that they have some of the best Metal compliance and performance available and Apple is stopping that from getting to market. Similarly that they have the most stable and cohabitation drivers available and that Apple is keeping that greater stability from getting to market. It is mainly an implicit "well, Apple is keeping you from our proprietary stack".

Putting in hard work would be delivering on both. The foundation that Apple wants and whatever value add Nvidia wants to put on top. Some amount of back burner ( or extinguish ) re-prioritization of the workload probably will run into problems with Apple. ( if Nvidia significantly screwed with MS on DirectX issues would pop up there too. )
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Clearly you are unfamiliar with CoreML, well maybe not, but that's what we got on macOS. It uses Metal, naturally.

https://developer.apple.com/machine-learning/

From that link.
"... Because it’s built on top of low level technologies like Metal and Accelerate, Core ML seamlessly takes advantage of the CPU and GPU to provide maximum performance and efficiency. .. "


....
And if you want to cry, read https://github.com/tf-coreml/tf-coreml - a tool to convert TensorFlow to Apple's proprietary API. Just what I want to work (and debug) with - using translators to convert millions of lines of open source code to Apple's proprietary API.

You don't have to convert to TensorFlow to CoreML. TensorFlow runs on macOS. Apple and Google have down work to hook Tensorflow with Metal ( WWDC 2018 session Metal for Accelerated Machine Learning )

CoreML isn't really the issue. CoreML sits on top of Metal (and Metal Performance Shaders MPS ).

If CUDA happens to be faster than an optimized MPS then fine. However, if Nvidia is out to kneecap MPS so it isn't then they probably will run into a problem with Apple.
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Nobody is using proprietary tools for ML. Even MS has opensource their ML framework.

MS's ML Framework is design to highly integrate with .Net. ( Pragmatically .Net is pretty narrow as a "multiplatform" technology).

CoreML is fairly similar. If building on a core Apple foundation library/framework application then it has the tradeoff of being more integrated. If trying to put your ML functionality into a subsystem of a larger application there are significant upsides here. ( as opposed to some cloud, back-end, "faceless" inferencer/training in a machine room / server farm )

Also a chuckle when the who CUDA flies by and not tagged as proprietary tools for ML. Most of the grandstanding about Nvidia GPUs being "essential" for any reasonable ML is all about advocating for a proprietary ML stack.
 
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Petty or just collateral damage from 'war' outside the Mac space?

I guess a combination of both.

The Mac Pro already sells so little I firmly believe Apple intended to kill the model and the iMac Pro was its successor because at least the iMac Pro could leverage a fair bit of the development costs and production infrastructure of the iMac which made it more "financially justifiable".

If Apple constrains the market relevance of the 2019 Mac Pro as much as they did the 2013, then Apple will be just as disincentivized to upgrade it as they were the 2013 model. They will just find a different reason than "thermal corner" as an excuse. Call it a "market corner", perhaps.

And with the above, I am not calling for a Mac Pro that can go toe-to-toe with the full line of PC OEM workstations, much less their server lines. But something that looks like it was optimized for more than iOS development or running Logic Pro X / Final Cut Pro X (as the 2013 Mac Pro and 2017 iMac Pro look to be on the surface).
 
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I guess a combination of both.

The Mac Pro already sells so little I firmly believe Apple intended to kill the model and the iMac Pro was its successor because at least the iMac Pro could leverage a fair bit of the development costs and production infrastructure of the iMac which made it more "financially justifiable".

If Apple constrains the market relevance of the 2019 Mac Pro as much as they did the 2013, then Apple will be just as disincentivized to upgrade it as they were the 2013 model. They will just fine a different reason than "thermal corner" as an excuse. Call it a "market corner", perhaps.

And with the above, I am not calling for a Mac Pro that can go toe-to-toe with the full line of PC OEM workstations, much less their server lines. But something that looks like it was optimized for more than iOS development or running Logic Pro X / Final Cut Pro X (as the 2013 Mac Pro and 2017 iMac Pro look to be on the surface).

Well said! Hopefully Apple will give a preview of the new Mac Pro next month so we can all make a decision and either save up to get one or move on to PC land. The hope is killing me here! :rolleyes:
 
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I think the wait is because Apple is going to use the forthcoming Zen 2 CPU line-up, starting with Threadripper 3 in the new modular Mac Pro...
 
I think the wait is because Apple is going to use the forthcoming Zen 2 CPU line-up, starting with Threadripper 3 in the new modular Mac Pro...

Not happening - that would be the smart thing to do.
 
I think the wait is because Apple is going to use the forthcoming Zen 2 CPU line-up, starting with Threadripper 3 in the new modular Mac Pro...
Zen 2 barely to reach markets in July only as Ryzen 3000 series, but more likely ThreadRipper / Epyc 2000 series in a PCIE 4 (future compatible) motherboard.

I give 50:50 chance to an AMD Mac pro, given Intel delays and how picky is the Mac Pro market, if we see an Intel based Mac Pro, it should be an advertisement move from Intel than a workstation business case.
 
Zen 2 barely to reach markets in July only as Ryzen 3000 series, but more likely ThreadRipper / Epyc 2000 series in a PCIE 4 (future compatible) motherboard.

I give 50:50 chance to an AMD Mac pro, given Intel delays and how picky is the Mac Pro market, if we see an Intel based Mac Pro, it should be an advertisement move from Intel than a workstation business case.

I think we haven't heard about much on an AMD MacPro because it would skyrocket the shares of AMD, imagine if Playstation 5, Xbox and the new MAcPro all on AMD hardware
 
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I think we may have had a clue revealed as to the form factor of the new modular Mac Pro...

dPTmQkP.png


Obviously, a larger-than-life scale model, but there it is, the new modular Mac Pro...!

Bringing this back, with a Copy / Paste from my post over at the AppleInsider forums...

Even though this is not the mini-tower / tower that everyone wants, if Apple allows end users to easily add / change the CPU / RAM / GPU & add additional 2.5" SSDs for expanded storage, AND releases updates (looking at you, GPU module) on a regular schedule, it might work...

If we are looking at a 7.7" x 7.7" enclosure with rounded corners, then the GPU may arrive in the MXM format...?

Look at the work done on the PSU in the new Space Grey Mac mini, now imagine that same horizontal footprint, but extended vertically, a larger PSU with more power...

I could see Apple using a vertical backplane (mounted at the front of the chassis) with five slots for vertical daughtercards; one for CPU / RAM / base GPU (Navi 12), one for storage (T2 & four M.2 NVMe slots, two prefilled & remaining modules initially available from Apple, until OWC steps in), one for base I/O (eight TB3 / USB-C ports, two 10Gb Ethernet ports, one 3.5mm headphone jack), two remaining slots are for GPUs and/or AI / ML specific GPUs...

So basically you are going to have three slots filled from Apple, with you deciding the level of CPU / RAM / SSDs come pre-installed...

You can BTO up the CPU / RAM / storage & you can BTO add up to two Apple-sanctioned GPUs / GPGPUs...

I would imagine bottom intake / rear exhaust Apple-designed blower fans for the CPU & various GPUs...

It is Apple after all, why would they ever give us EXACTLY what we want...! ;^p
 
If we are looking at a 7.7" x 7.7" enclosure with rounded corners, then the GPU may arrive in the MXM format...?

Look at the work done on the PSU in the new Space Grey Mac mini, now imagine that same horizontal footprint, but extended vertically, a larger PSU with more power...

Powermac G4 Cube - Compact, densely packed components, price premium based on small footprint, limited upgradability, highly engineered thermal chimney design. Result - Chronic thermal related failures, and a sales disaster.

2013 Mac Pro - Compact, densely packed components, price premium based on small footprint, limited upgradability, highly engineered thermal chimney design. Result - Chronic thermal related failures, and a sales disaster.

*definition of insanity, repeating the same actions & expecting different results*
*definition of a fanatic, one who upon losing sight of their objective, redoubles their efforts*

"it's small, it thermally fails, customers reject it. it's small, it thermally fails... are you getting it?"
 
Powermac G4 Cube - Compact, densely packed components, price premium based on small footprint, limited upgradability, highly engineered thermal chimney design. Result - Chronic thermal related failures, and a sales disaster.

2013 Mac Pro - Compact, densely packed components, price premium based on small footprint, limited upgradability, highly engineered thermal chimney design. Result - Chronic thermal related failures, and a sales disaster.

*definition of insanity, repeating the same actions & expecting different results*
*definition of a fanatic, one who upon losing sight of their objective, redoubles their efforts*

"it's small, it thermally fails, customers reject it. it's small, it thermally fails... are you getting it?"

Maybe third time is the charm...?!? ;^p

The best selling "power" Mac was the cheesegrate Mac.

I'm just sayin'

Everyone wants a modern cheesegrater, or at least a modern cheesegrater lite; which is why Apple will not give it to us...?
 
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Powermac G4 Cube - Compact, densely packed components, price premium based on small footprint, limited upgradability, highly engineered thermal chimney design. Result - Chronic thermal related failures, and a sales disaster.

2013 Mac Pro - Compact, densely packed components, price premium based on small footprint, limited upgradability, highly engineered thermal chimney design. Result - Chronic thermal related failures, and a sales disaster.

*definition of insanity, repeating the same actions & expecting different results*
*definition of a fanatic, one who upon losing sight of their objective, redoubles their efforts*

"it's small, it thermally fails, customers reject it. it's small, it thermally fails... are you getting it?"

Take away compact, some density and lack of upgradability then you have a modern version of the Next Cube. That would be not too bad.

4a283a52319323.590c53059ae18.jpg
 
Maybe third time is the charm...?!? ;^p



Everyone wants a modern cheesegrater, or at least a modern cheesegrater lite; which is why Apple will not give it to us...?

My point was if Apple was mainly concerned about sales and profit they would simply build another tower unit similar to the old cheesegrate because they knew it sold well.

There has to be a reason other than pure sales/profit behind this.
 
A case, larger than tcMP/G4 cube but smaller than full tower, designed to house components with reasonable TDP could be the centerpiece of a modular ecosystem. Pervious efforts at "compact" were too aggressive, but that doesn't mean only big towers are viable.

My solution would be a mini-tower sized "brain" case for the mobo, PSU, cooling, ports, CPU, RAM, etc with zero, or just one PCIe slot. This would suit a portion of the market and support things like eGPU, RAIDs, etc via TB3. For the hard core crew, offer a second matching "daughter" case that's just a slotbox with it's own PSU and at least 24 dedicated lanes of PCIe4 via extender. With clever design, the two cases could allow for a very short distance between the mobo and an external PCIe bus to reduce latency issues.

For those of us that need max performance and would like to avoid a rat's nest of boxes and cables, we can just treat the brain/daughter combo like a cheese grater tower. Pack it full of GPUs, SSDs, specialty PCIe boards, etc. Order the whole thing BTO from Apple if you want full AppleCare coverage and are willing to pay a premium to protect your investment (or satisfy company purchasing rules).

For those folks who need more than a maxed-mini and/or aren't interested in an AIO like the iMac you could still sell them a one case solution. If they ever need more than the thermal envelope can handle, there's TB3 externals or add the daughter case later. This would keep a population of artists, creatives, hobbyists, institutional buyers, etc in the Mac.OSX world at a price point ($3-8K) and TDP requirement (1,100w PSU and air cooling) that would work in a wide variety of situations.
 
My point was if Apple was mainly concerned about sales and profit they would simply build another tower unit similar to the old cheesegrate because they knew it sold well.

There has to be a reason other than pure sales/profit behind this.

Because their current business ethos can not find a place for a product that is either not a soft product like a service, or a simple sealed polygon. I think they are trying to figure out how they will fit in a presumed trendy future where no one owns anything, but rather leases or subscribes to resources on demand/as needed. The imac/mini/macpro will soon become vestigial. Eventually the ipad will put the macbook in the grave. The cheesegrater is not forward thinking, despite being a roughly standardized solution, and the Apple brand needs to court the 'forward thinking' even in spite of itself.
 
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