The Mac mini is definitely one Mac eating away at the edges. I think where the MacBook Pro comes into play is for people who need a laptop and want a desktop. If you have to buy the MacBook Pro anyway, at some point you start considering if you actually need the desktop.
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MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)
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The Mac mini is definitely one Mac eating away at the edges. I think where the MacBook Pro comes into play is for people who need a laptop and want a desktop. If you have to buy the MacBook Pro anyway, at some point you start considering if you actually need the desktop.
I feel like a Mac mini would also suit most people, who knows maybe they will eventually make a Mac mini Pro. I don't think the argument that it cannibalises the Mac Pro credible. I'd rather buy a Mac mini Pro with a XDR display for the money than a Mac Pro by itself. iMac Pro doesn't suit me at all, but it's the closest thing to what I need and want
I think the biggest argument against the Mac mini right now is pricing. You can get a Mac mini cheap and bring your peripherals, but as soon as you start speccing it out you quickly run into a situation where an iMac is a better option in every way except people who value their desk real estate (a problem the 21.5” iMac also has.) To some degree a more expensive but more expandable model makes more sense to me than the niche the mini sorta’ kinda’ fills at this point. I guess we’ll see when they update it and what form factor it ends up taking. I’d love to know what Apple’s market research on it looks like.
Anyone have a take on this post from The Mac Observer?
Are the concerns about already-dated tech overblown or legit?
The ‘Uncanny Valley’ Mac Pro - Failure on Arrival
John Kheit argues Apple should consider cutting the price of the new Mac Pro and be sure to update it within 12 months to stay competitive.
www.macobserver.com
Are the concerns about already-dated tech overblown or legit?
Semi-legit concerns, especially for those who are purchasing close to base models of MP7,1 with the minimum specs. Those folks are likely planning on upgrading during the life of the machine as it is (mostly due to entry cost).
I do see an issue with continuing to offer the RX580 as the new entry-level GPU in December 2019 when your MBP 16" has already moved on from that class and 7+ year old MP5,1's have already been running that as a daily GPU (for under $200 total cost). It's an upgrade in machine from MP5,1>MP7,1 for sure but shouldn't ALL the tech really be upgraded for this price point?
Apple is literally close to the bleeding edge by offering versions of 5000M-series in the new MBP at this time. That machine also offers 512GB base SSD, but quickly goes to 1TB if you're "tricked" into selecting the higher spec'd machine on the right. They really should consider bumping the base SSD capacity on MP7,1 from 256GB when selling a machine at this price level. It was a complaint during announcing and will be a focus for people who are trying to pick it apart before release. The lack of transparency with BTO pricing doesn't help either.
Also believe Apple may have shot themselves in the foot slightly here. Personally will likely hold off on MP7,1 until price drops or a random sale happens (like iMac Pro did). Cannot justify two new machines within 6 months, but timing on the 16" MBP is right and the 16" MBP I'm looking to upgrade to is $3700+.
Offering more bang for your buck at the base entry for MP7,1 in December 2019 would help steer others from doing this exact same dance.
I do see an issue with continuing to offer the RX580 as the new entry-level GPU in December 2019 when your MBP 16" has already moved on from that class and 7+ year old MP5,1's have already been running that as a daily GPU (for under $200 total cost). It's an upgrade in machine from MP5,1>MP7,1 for sure but shouldn't ALL the tech really be upgraded for this price point?
Apple is literally close to the bleeding edge by offering versions of 5000M-series in the new MBP at this time. That machine also offers 512GB base SSD, but quickly goes to 1TB if you're "tricked" into selecting the higher spec'd machine on the right. They really should consider bumping the base SSD capacity on MP7,1 from 256GB when selling a machine at this price level. It was a complaint during announcing and will be a focus for people who are trying to pick it apart before release. The lack of transparency with BTO pricing doesn't help either.
Also believe Apple may have shot themselves in the foot slightly here. Personally will likely hold off on MP7,1 until price drops or a random sale happens (like iMac Pro did). Cannot justify two new machines within 6 months, but timing on the 16" MBP is right and the 16" MBP I'm looking to upgrade to is $3700+.
Offering more bang for your buck at the base entry for MP7,1 in December 2019 would help steer others from doing this exact same dance.
The complaints about the entry-level GPUs and storage I get. The complaints about PCIe 3 I don't, given that the previous cheese grater Mac Pro (still on PCIe 2) has shown that it's not a major limiting factor.
The editorial writer sounds like whoever that guy was here who keeps going on about how everyone should be building their own AMD 56-core machine.
The editorial writer sounds like whoever that guy was here who keeps going on about how everyone should be building their own AMD 56-core machine.
Anyone have a take on this post from The Mac Observer?
The ‘Uncanny Valley’ Mac Pro - Failure on Arrival
John Kheit argues Apple should consider cutting the price of the new Mac Pro and be sure to update it within 12 months to stay competitive.www.macobserver.com
Are the concerns about already-dated tech overblown or legit?
Everything in the 7,1 is either End of Lifed (EoLed) or bypassed by current tech (Intel CPUs). Apple has abandoned the HEDT market.
The Video cards are either 3 years old or 2 years old - both are on GCN architecture, not Navi. Also, keep in mind that these cards don't have access to AMD's Adrenaline drivers, so all of the tech goodness that IS available for the GCN architecture won't be available for the Mac Pro users. But it will be available for anyone on an RX 470 or better on the PC side.
Hopefully, Apple will get off their 4th point of contact and provide a Navi series of cards for the Mac Pro.
PCIe 3.0 has been superseded by PCIe 4. Does that matter in November 2019? No - but it will matter in 2020 and beyond. 2 years from now, all peripherals will be PCIe 4 or later.
For those that don't understand PCIe 3.0 will be a bottleneck shortly - look at the throughput available on single PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives.
The CPU - an 8 core/16 thread CPU is a 300 dollar CPU. The upcoming PS5 and Xbox Scarlet are going to have 8 core/16 thread CPUs (and Navi graphics). Think about that. Also keep in mind that all AMD CPUs support ECC memory - and yes, there are even Ryzen motherboards that support it.
At the end of the day, the base 7,1 is a $2,500 dollar computer. The other $3,500 is for the cooling and the Apple Tax.
If your workflow is tied to software that ONLY exists on the Apple Platform, you will just have to suck it up, or move to an iMac. If your workflow isn't tied to OSX only software, you have to decide if the Apple tax is worth it.
For me, I am not tied to OSX. It has been a great 20 years, but I am not paying that level of an Apple tax.
Sometimes it's not about what the cheapest solution is, but rather what the best solution is that meets your needs. Do these AMD 56-core machines run macOS? No? Then they immediately are out the window for my needs. Unusable.
I can't possibly be the only professional in that boat. I imagine there are more in that boat than not actually, as there are plenty of Windows machine OEMs that have great track records and services. But none make Macs.
Anyone have a take on this post from The Mac Observer?
The ‘Uncanny Valley’ Mac Pro - Failure on Arrival
John Kheit argues Apple should consider cutting the price of the new Mac Pro and be sure to update it within 12 months to stay competitive.www.macobserver.com
Are the concerns about already-dated tech overblown or legit?
Mostly overblown and a healthy dose of simple wishful thinking thrown in on top.
1. There are numerous threads here on this subforum about folks getting work done with a Mac Pro 2010-2012 (with some updates ). They'd like to do more than what the system they now have does. The MP 2019 will be better in raw computational wise . Lots of those folks have PCI-e v3 cards stuffed in a PCI-e v2 machine and get stuff done. Imagine if they moved their PCI-e v3 cards to an actual PCi-e v3 system. ( i.e., folks have lots of PCI-e v3 stuff which isn't going to get any faster if stuff into a PCI-e v4 system. ).
Even if folks bought a PCI-e v4 card basically in same situation as before ( when stuck on PCI-e v2). So it isn't like the value of the MP 2019 has suddenly tanked several thousands in the last 3-5 months because there is a sprinkle of new PCi-e v4 cards out.
Since Apple is on the Intel bandwagon there are not behind at all if want to release something in 2019 . Which matters way more than being on some tech porn curve. Shipping is better than next year's spec sheets. In the Intel space PCI-e v4 CPUs in the Xeon W like space aren't coming until mid 2020 ( maybe later). it is way overblown that Apple could gaining anything stubatntive by waiting that long. It is also way overblown that somehow mid 2020 systems are tanking 2019 systems now. ( It isn't happening over at Dell or HP's websites for systems with the same Xeon W processors. )
2. AMD solutions in Mac Pro right now is in the "If my Aunt was male she'd be my Uncle" category. Next iteration Apple might change but the current Mac Pro was probably speced out in late 2017 or so.
It is also a bit wishful thinking that Apple is going to iterate the Mac Pro every 12 months when they are just coming off 6 and 3 years intervals. ( The iMac Pro also stalled in the water. Along with other Macs. Three years to get out of the butterfly keyboard thing). 18 months from now, would be a pleasant surprise.
Apple does need to get back on regular intervals. But a practical regular interval for them with their resource allocations. Graphics cards ? Yeah something in the next 12 months. Obsolete the whole system in 12 months? Probably not going to happen. ( same reason an significantly updated iMac Pro probably isn't going to pop out of the queue in the next 2 months either. )
3. The other wishful thinking part is that Apple is desperate for folks outside of the "backlog demand" market. Keeping the folks that have is likely a bigger priority than trying to peel hard core Windows users out of Dell/HP/Lenovo systems.
Lowering the price isn't going to make the hard core Nvidia fan boys happy. Lots of folks who wanted cheaper every 12-18 months probably left 2 or so iteratios after the Mac Pro 2010 went stale. ( that was probably 4-5 years ago. Chasing them with the new Mac Pro is dubious as many are already gone. ).
4. The last overblown factor is that Apple's expectations probably aren't that they are going to sell 100's of thousands of these Mac Pros. All they have to do is sell enough of these to make a small profit.
So the $3K price point does leave some folks out in the cold. But is that really a huge group at this point?
Short term AMD is ahead, but it's really difficult for long term planning. It's likely not a good time for Apple to switch over.
There is the ARM stuff hanging out over Apple. Even if it doesn't come to the Mac Pro initially, it would discourage Apple from creating another new CPU supplier relationship.
And then 10 nm Xeons are somewhere in the future. That could possibly put Intel back ahead in performance and cost.
It doesn't make sense for Apple to jump around based on today's conditions. Apple probably has a long term CPU roadmap and that's what they are going to follow. With AMD's custom CPU designs, they might even have a custom design that's not ready to go yet. They wouldn't want to disrupt their product designs ahead of that.
I've been doing 3D graphics on a mid-2010 12-core, with a variety of GPUs, for the best part of a decade. Truth is, it still works and makes pretty pictures. Now in my blissful, non-PC ignorance, this new Mac Pro (24-core, hopefully) will be two times, maybe even three times faster. So, relatively speaking, it'll feel amazing compared to what I'm used to. I've seriously considered a PC, but every time I get near to pulling the trigger, I hear another nightmare story about drivers and bugs and malware and god knows what else. So I'll stick with what I know and all the apps I already have. Sure, the new Mac Pro isn't ideal, but it'll be great for me at this moment in time. However I do agree that, now we're six months down the line, Apple should throw us a bone regarding price or low-end spec – or both. But, of course, it won't.
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Of course, one other point: how upgradable is the nMP? Will we be able to stick bigger CPUs in down the line, and these fabled Navi GPUs?
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Of course, one other point: how upgradable is the nMP? Will we be able to stick bigger CPUs in down the line, and these fabled Navi GPUs?
There is no workstation Navi (yet.) Vega is still state of the art on the AMD side.
That's how tech always is. Whatever computer you buy will probably have out of date I/O in a few years.
Even if Apple included PCIe4 we could all move directly on to complaining about USB4. And 10 nm. And ARM. There is always something right on the horizon.
I bought a 2008 Mac Pro when it was brand new. I got stuck with slow bus/memory/IO speeds within a few years. It's just how it is.
I'd be _much_ more worried about the 14nm CPU that the Mac Pro is shipping with. That's going to be a performance handicap.
Those drives are well within the performance of PCIe 3.0. They just can use less lanes, but the 7,1 isn't really short on lanes.
A year away and still not going to be as fast as a Mac Pro. And when Navi workstation cards ship, you can throw one in a Mac Pro.
They could it's really not that hard, people are hackintoshing AMD CPUs Zen and Threadripper, so if they can do it, there's something else stopping apple
I'm feeling this more and more with the interviews I have heard with Mac product team members (like the MBP lead on today's episode of the "Upgrade" podcast). Apple seems to be leaning very heavily on the input they are getting from their "Pro Workflow" teams and designed the 2019 Mac Pro, 2019 MacBook Pro 16 and the 2018 Mac Mini around what those teams were telling them they wanted in those form factors to keep them "in the fold".
On the plus side, these "Apple Pros" seem to want a fair bit of things that "pros" also want (faster CPUs and GPUs along with large RAM and storage capabilities), so there seems to be sufficient overlap to keep the "10 percenters" at the top end using Apple while still appealing to a large part of the other 90% who don't need the absolute maximum, but also want configuration flexibility.
more drips....
"... Since its debut, Apple made a few tweaks. There's now an 8-terabyte solid-state drive option for the Mac Pro, with twice as much memory as previously stated. The Mac Pro will now be able to handle six simultaneous streams of 8K video, twice the number promised at WWDC. ..."
Mac Pro will finally ship in December
Apple's pro-grade Mac has been tweaked since its debut at Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference back in June.www.cnet.com
Although, I suspect that this 3 to 6 move probably comes from two Afterburner cards far more so than the Afterburner card somehow got twice as fast. That is probably at the cost of a possible second Vega II Duo. ( A second Afterburner in one of the MPX bays. ).
Been discussing with Casperes1996 about changing FCPX project settings to ProRes 422HQ even though the original film clips were shot using 1080. A question I have is will the Afterburner kick in in this scenario (simple change in settings) or only if the original (native) shots were filmed in ProRes (e.g. EVA1 & Atomos).
And there are no workstation drivers for Vega on OSX. Apple writes the drivers, not AMD, so no Adrenaline for you. And where as, yes there is always new tech on the horizon, PCIe 4.0 isn't on the horizon, it is in port, right now. What is your plan if Apple goes and Rip-van-Winkles for 2,000 days?
You are right to worry about the CPU, because Intel is all about socket of the month. 7,1 users won't have much in the option of CPU upgrades.
I would hope that a $6,000 workstation would outperform a $500 game console - but I wouldn't bet on it.
If you're looking for Adrenaline on macOS... We can just already exclude the Mac. No need to talk about PCIe 4.0.
PCIe 4.0 is not universally shipping right now. It's not widely available.
Yes, _some_ CPUs have PCIe 4.0. But you can't get it on HP workstations either. There is no Z series with PCIe 4.0.
This isn't really an Apple problem. And there is always going to be something that some other computer has that Apple doesn't have yet.
If you want PCIe 4.0... then don't buy this years Mac Pro. That's an easy fix. Wait until it's more widely available.
You're trying to argue that Apple is behind here, but if I turn around and look at HP or Dell workstations... no PCIe 4.0 there either.
I think he's referring to the group of people who would like to see the 7,1 Mac Pro priced at $3K.
On the tightly-couple gaming code - bet on the console.
If you need 1024 GiB of RAM, 24 cores, 8 TB of SSD, dual 10 GbE networking - bet on the workstation.
Right. Even for games... maybe at the entry level. But I doubt even a PS5 will be faster than a Vega 2. The next consoles are very likely Navi based, which won’t be a clear win against Vega 20. They definitely won’t be using a big Navi GPU since they’re SOC.
I’d bet the next consoles are going to ballpark somewhere around a 5700. But software will be highly tweaked for the SOC, especially if the CPU has an Infinity Fabric link to the GPU.
But yeah. Very unlikely next years game consoles are going to outrun this years Mac Pro. If you believe that... by all means buy a PS5 next year and do your video editing on that.
Can you do video editing on a PS4 or an Xbox?
I don't think so.
Can you do high resolution, high frame rate games on an Apple?
I don't think so.
____________
It's absurd to suggest using a console as a workstation video editing platform. Or to expect a workstation to beat a console from the same generation at games.