MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[ITguy2016]

Was it better value? It was. You couldn't config computer with similar performance in similar price bracket. Most of Workstations with similar performance level were 1-2k USD more expensive, because of the price of the Workstation GPUs at that time.

And you never benefited from the difference that workstation GPU gave you(ECC Memory).

About the MP 7.1 and the prospect of what I have written higher. Worrying thing is the lack of support for RX 480, or Ellesmere XT GPU in macOS Sierra. So either it will be implemented later, or... Apple will use cut down Vega 10 GPU with HBM2 as second tier GPU option. Why is it important? Because HBM2 brings ECC memory with just BIOS change.

So Radeon Pro DX300 - Ellesmere Pro with 2048 GCN cores, and 4 GB of VRAM with lack of ECC.
DX500 and DX700 could have different levels of performance end ECC memory as differentiating feature.

Perhaps they cost more because they offered capability lacking in the nMP. Things like internal hard disk expansion, PCIe slots, dual processor capability, optical drives, significantly larger memory capacities, and real workstation graphics options to name a few.

It appears your idea of value is to strip things out of a product and call the resulting lower price a better value. Value is what you get for your money, not the lower cost.

 

[koyoot]

If you wanted SSD, instead of HDD, similar performance level from dual GPU(or in other words: dual Fire Pro W9000, single GPU cost around 2k$, here you had two for half of that price), and the same CPU in HP Z, or Dell you had to add more money to your computer than you had to pay for Mac Pro.

It had nothing to do with adding HDD, optical drives, memory, etc. All of this was available to you in MP, with external expansion, be it with USB, or with Thunderbolt.

Edit: it is quite funny.

- Mac Pro 6.1 was rubbish: it lacked expansion, expandability, it lacked performance, it lacked Nvidia GPUs!
- But it was much better value than comparable workstations...
- Because it was rubbish!

 

[ITguy2016]

If you wanted SSD, instead of HDD, similar performance level from dual GPU(or in other words: dual Fire Pro W9000, single GPU cost around 2k$, here you had two for half of that price), and the same CPU in HP Z, or Dell you had to add more money to your computer than you had to pay for Mac Pro.

It had nothing to do with adding HDD, optical drives, memory, etc. All of this was available to you in MP, with external expansion, be it with USB, or with Thunderbolt.

It has everything to do with the ability to add internal hard disks and optical drives, considerably more memory expansion, PCIe slots, real workstation cards, dual processor capability. IOW these systems offer more capability compared to the nMP.

What Apple did was reduce the cost of the nMP by eliminating capability. IMO the two aren't comparable. IMO the nMP isn't in the same league as the Dell or HP offerings.

 

[koyoot]

It has everything to do with the ability to add internal hard disks and optical drives, considerably more memory expansion, PCIe slots, real workstation cards, dual processor capability. IOW these systems offer more capability compared to the nMP.

What Apple did was reduce the cost of the nMP by eliminating capability. IMO the two aren't comparable. IMO the nMP isn't in the same league as the Dell or HP offerings.

Logically speaking: I do not see the connection between the price and value of computer to reduced capability. Secondly you did not lost any capability, it was moved outside the computer.

Neither you and I will agree on this, so lets just move on.

 

[ITguy2016]

Logically speaking: I do not see the connection between the price and value of computer to reduced capability. Secondly you did not lost any capability, it was moved outside the computer

Value is what you get for your money. With the Dell and HP workstations the price includes capability not available in the nMP. You can add some of the missing capability to the nMP but to do so you're going to have to pay extra for it. IOW when you pay $1K - $2K more for the Dell and HP workstations you're getting more for your money. Thus the better value.

 

[koyoot]

GPUs alone were 4K$. In MP, you payed 1000$. Actually it still is...

HP Z440 Workstation: Quad core CPU Xeon E5-1620v4, 16 GB of RAM in Dual Channel(HP for quad channel memory shouts 400$ OVER dual channel 16 GB RAM, so it would be even worse value), 256 GB SSD PCIe, 500 GB HDD, single FirePro W7100 is... 2800$!

Base Mac Pro 6.1 with similar, but dual GPUs: 2999$. 3 Years later and still gives pretty nice value for money(Albeit, still overpriced...).

And lets not forget. Fire Pro W9000 which is the same Tahiti chip as D700 costs 1800$ alone! And you have to put them two inside the Z440 workstation. Both computers, all things considered, offer similar level of value, with a little edge for Mac Pro.

As I have said, we will not agree on this.

 

[ITguy2016]

GPUs alone were 4K$. In MP, you payed 1000$. Actually it still is...

HP Z440 Workstation: Quad core CPU Xeon E5-1620v4, 16 GB of RAM in Dual Channel(HP for quad channel memory shouts 400$ OVER dual channel 16 GB RAM, so it would be even worse value), 256 GB SSD PCIe, 500 GB HDD, single FirePro W7100 is... 2800$!

Base Mac Pro 6.1 with similar, but dual GPUs: 2999$. 3 Years later and still gives pretty nice value for money(Albeit, still overpriced...).

And lets not forget. Fire Pro W9000 which is the same Tahiti chip as D700 costs 1800$ alone! And you have to put them two inside the Z440 workstation. Both computers, all things considered, offer similar level of value, with a little edge for Mac Pro.

As I have said, we will not agree on this.

The HP system includes the following capabilities missing from the nMP:

• Six PCIe slots
• 2 external 5.25" drive bays
• 2 internal 3.5" drive bays
• 8 DIMM slots for a maximum official memory capacity of 128GB of RAM
• Real workstation graphics cards (available from both Nvidia and AMD...you get to choose)

None of that is available in the nMP. And this is choosing the lower end of HP's offerings. Let us also consider the pricing being used is retail pricing. I'm sure discounts are available from HP.

 

[mattspace]

GPUs alone were 4K$. In MP, you payed 1000$.

you paid $1000 for a pair of Radeon 7XXX with some extra VRAM that inevitably destroys them, and a cosmetic firmware tweak that calls itself "FirePro", not a pair of WXXXX FirePros.

 

[koyoot]

you paid $1000 a pair of Radeon 7XXX with some extra VRAM that inevitably destroys them, and a cosmetic firmware tweak that calls itself "FirePro", not a pair of WXXXX FirePros.

And what is the difference between W9000 and HD7970 apart from ECC memory? Nothing. All you always pay for is brand, and different software. Physically all of the GPUs are the same.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Perhaps they cost more because they offered capability lacking in the nMP. Things like internal hard disk expansion, PCIe slots, dual processor capability, optical drives, significantly larger memory capacities, and real workstation graphics options to name a few.

It appears your idea of value is to strip things out of a product and call the resulting lower price a better value. Value is what you get for your money, not the lower cost.

Not sure why it should cost that much more for some things that are considered "standard" in the PC industry or by certain professionals. Unless their doing some serious price gouging. Such as ability to add hard drives ( Its mostly just sheet metal brackets with added connectors )

The idea Koyoot is talking about is similarly equipped PC's & the nMP.

you paid $1000 for a pair of Radeon 7XXX with some extra VRAM that inevitably destroys them, and a cosmetic firmware tweak that calls itself "FirePro", not a pair of WXXXX FirePros.

We already had many discussions on AMD & Nvidia workstation graphics are based on their Radeon and GeForce series. If you scrutinize Nvidia's Quattro VS GeForce line you would see the same thing.

 

[ITguy2016]

And what is the difference between W9000 and HD7970 apart from ECC memory? Nothing. All you always pay for is brand, and different software. Physically all of the GPUs are the same.

OK...applying this reasoning you should be configuring the HP with dual HD7970 instead of dual W9000's.
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Not sure why it should cost that much more for some things that are considered "standard" in the PC industry or by certain professionals. Unless their doing some serious price gouging. Such as ability to add hard drives ( Its mostly just sheet metal brackets with added connectors )

The idea Koyoot is talking about is similarly equipped PC's & the nMP.

What Koyoot is doing is configuring the HP to match the specs of the nMP while ignoring the HP includes things not available in the nMP. It's an unbalanced comparison. If he wants a true comparison then the two systems need to be matched in capability and configuration.

 

[koyoot]

OK...applying this reasoning you should be configuring the HP with dual HD7970 instead of dual W9000's.

Basically, you do always that thing whether you want to believe that or not. However, does HP or Dell offer such option? No. Every workstation comes with workstation branded parts. It isnt only Apple, but Dell, HP, everyone.

Someone brilliant has said before: Premium is not what you get. It is what you pay. And Workstation is always premium option.

 

[ITguy2016]

Basically, you do always that thing whether you want to believe that or not. However, does HP or Dell offer such option? No. Every workstation comes with workstation branded parts. It isnt only Apple, but Dell, HP, everyone.

Yes, HP and Dell do offer that option...buy the workstation without a graphics card and install two HD7970 on your own. Oh, you were talking about workstation parts. I thought that wasn't important to you because the cards in the nMP are relabeled consumer parts and not the real workstation parts offered in the competing products.

 

[mattspace]

And what is the difference between W9000 and HD7970 apart from ECC memory?

...(as used in the nMP) the ability to work at full capacity without reducing themselves to molten slag? I mean call me old-fashioned, but actually surviving a production environment is a pretty important part of a "pro" piece of hardware.

Over and over I've read here that Nvidia gaming cards aren't proper "pro" cards, Core i7 CPU's aren't proper "pro" CPUs compared to Xeons, gaming computers aren't proper "workstations", yet the nMP gets a free pass on having gaming cards, because they put a "firepro" sticker on them?

At least be realistic about what the nMP IS - a workstation CPU & memory subsystem, connected to a pair of thermally fragile gaming cards.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Yet the nMP gets a free pass on having gaming cards, because they put a "firepro" sticker on them?

Yet Nvidia gets a free pass on using gaming cards for their Quattro series. As example, If memory serves me correct, the GTX 780 and Quattro K6000:

 

[koyoot]

Yes, HP and Dell do offer that option...buy the workstation without a graphics card and install two HD7970 on your own. Oh, you were talking about workstation parts. I thought that wasn't important to you because the cards in the nMP are relabeled consumer parts and not the real workstation parts offered in the competing products.

You did not understood what I meant. Every GPU, regardless if we are talking about gaming, mobile or professional GPU are using the same ASIC's. It was always like that. Lately however we do not get the differentation in branding between mobile, and desktop parts, because currently all of them are using the same ASIC's. It is exactly the same for professional graphics.

...the ability to work at full capacity without reducing themselves to molten slag? I mean call me old-fashioned, but actually surviving a production environment is a pretty important part of a "pro" piece of hardware.

Over and over I've read here that Nvidia gaming cards aren't proper "pro" cards, Core i7 CPU's aren't proper "pro" CPUs compared to Xeons, gaming computers aren't proper "workstations", yet the nMP gets a free pass on having gaming cards, because they put a "firepro" sticker on them?

At least be realistic about what the nMP IS - a workstation CPU & memory subsystem, connected to a pair of thermally fragile gaming cards.

So you are saying that Workstation GPUs are immune to failures.

That is laughable. Most of the failures of the GPUs in MP are happening after heavy load for months. Similar thing can, and will happen in GPUs in a tower.

Like I have said before, we will not agree on this. So better lets move on.

 

[Hank Carter]

One of the great thing about the HP boxes is that you can order them without a GPU and drop in whatever you want. Don't want a Quadro? Fine, order it sans GPU and drop in a 1080. Or two. Or four.

With the nMP you're stuck with Apple's GPU offerings - forever.

 

[ITguy2016]

You did not understood what I meant. Every GPU, regardless if we are talking about gaming, mobile or professional GPU are using the same ASIC's. It was always like that. Lately however we do not get the differentation in branding between mobile, and desktop parts, because currently all of them are using the same ASIC's. It is exactly the same for professional graphics.
So you are saying that Workstation GPUs are immune to failures.

That is laughable. Most of the failures of the GPUs in MP are happening after heavy load for months. Similar thing can, and will happen in GPUs in a tower.

Like I have said before, we will not agree on this. So better lets move on.

I understood you just fine. Which is why I said to substitute dual HD7970's instead of dual W9000's. Not sure why you think there's a disconnect between what you're saying and what I suggested.

 

[mattspace]

So you are saying that Workstation GPUs are immune to failures.

Does any workstation card have a high-usage failure rate remotely in the ballpark of the nMP? Are FirePros or Quadros renowned in the industries that use them as being failure-prone?

The Radeon 79xx series was designed around having 3gb of memory, the FirePro 6gb. The Radeons in the nMP were custom-redesigned to have 6GB to look more like the FirePros on paper, but they'e not FirePros, and the evidence seems to be that this change is causing them to overheat and fail.

What do you think is more likely - that it was just a bad batch, and against unimaginably great odds all the heaviest users just happened to get them, and keep getting them when they're repaired / replaced, OR that there's an endemic, non-fixable design flaw in this non-standard card, and the conditions to cause it to manifest happen to overlap the heaviest users?

 

[koyoot]

Overheat? In what way, when the TDP is locked at 129W, and if it exceeds that limit the GPU will throttle?

How can you overheat a GPU that was designed to work in 250W thermal envelope at half of it?

 

[ITguy2016]

Overheat? In what way, when the TDP is locked at 129W, and if it exceeds that limit the GPU will throttle?

How can you overheat a GPU that was designed to work in 250W thermal envelope at half of it?

Overheating issues seem to be a problem with several Apple products. All because their focus is on form instead of function.

 

[mattspace]

Overheat? In what way, when the TDP is locked at 129W, and if it exceeds that limit the GPU will throttle?

How can you overheat a GPU that was designed to work in 250W thermal envelope at half of it?

As I've seen it described by people I have good reason to believe know very specifically what the problem is, the addition of the extra 3GB of vram to the Radeon design has given rise to a localised thermal problem that the system cannot cool, or protect against. It's inherent to the design, and if you use your machine hard enough, you're guaranteed to burn them out.

Take that for what it is, believe it or not. My bugbear is the disingenuous argument that a person can't claim how good / cheap their homebuild PC (or hell even iMac / Mini etc) is compared to the nMP, because the GeForce (or Radeon) GPUs aren't "workstation" parts, when the nMP's GPUs are no more "workstation" than any other gaming card.

 

[koyoot]

I will ask again. W9000 with 6 GB of VRAM has 250W TDP. How come it is not able to work in thermal envelope that is half that? How come it can be too hard for it? Don't you think that if that is the case, then the problem should be MUCH bigger in 250W thermal envelope? And this is limited in GPU BIOS.

 

[Hank Carter]

Does any workstation card have a high-usage failure rate remotely in the ballpark of the nMP? Are FirePros or Quadros renowned in the industries that use them as being failure-prone?

The Radeon 79xx series was designed around having 3gb of memory, the FirePro 6gb. The Radeons in the nMP were custom-redesigned to have 6GB to look more like the FirePros on paper, but they'e not FirePros, and the evidence seems to be that this change is causing them to overheat and fail.

What do you think is more likely - that it was just a bad batch, and against unimaginably great odds all the heaviest users just happened to get them, and keep getting them when they're repaired / replaced, OR that there's an endemic, non-fixable design flaw in this non-standard card, and the conditions to cause it to manifest happen to overlap the heaviest users?

The poor thermal design of the nMP doesn't help this situation. You don't need to be an engineer to look at the size of the vents on an nMP and question it's ability to provide enough airflow and cooling under full load. But thermal problems seem to be the norm at Apple these days as they sacrifice functionality for design aesthetics. Look at the 5k iMac etc
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Overheat? In what way, when the TDP is locked at 129W, and if it exceeds that limit the GPU will throttle?

How can you overheat a GPU that was designed to work in 250W thermal envelope at half of it?

Put it in a case that's too small with inadequate ventilation and cooling.

 

[linuxcooldude]

While its an interesting theory, Koyoot is thinking what I was. Since W9000/D700/7970 are based on the Tahiti XT series shouldn't we see similar problems with the W9000?

My bugbear is the disingenuous argument that a person can't claim how good / cheap their homebuild PC (or hell even iMac / Mini etc) is compared to the nMP, because the GeForce (or Radeon) GPUs aren't "workstation" parts, when the nMP's GPUs are no more "workstation" than any other gaming card.

Still many things differentiate workstation vs gaming cards besides performance. Driver support ( While I'm not arguing the Apple may not use custom drivers per say like PC version) Hand picked GPU for better stability, better thermal properties, guaranteed to work in listed pro apps. Noted differences are found in video I posted.

A few glitches in a video game is not a big deal, not so much when using pro applications.

You don't need to be an engineer to look at the size of the vents on an nMP and question it's ability to provide enough airflow and cooling under full load.

Being an engineer myself ( Gas Turbine ) its somewhat similar design to a gas turbine which I'm familiar with. I consider it an ingenious design that is very efficient in cooling. The axial flow design is more efficient than conventional box PC with multiple fans blowing in different directions.