MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[deconstruct60]

Theres a difference between " future Macs" and the next Mac.

And that difference has about zero relevance to what goMac and I addressed. You aren't addressing the problems of ARM macs just tap dancing and arm flapping. Your distinction of "next" and "future" is primarily a way of kick the predication into the more distance future where this "broken clock is right twice a day" prediction has a slightly better chance of coming true.

The more distant future gets you just as much (if not more ) different Intel/AMD offerings as it gets different A-Series ones. Certainty there is only looking at less than half of the possibilities. Good luck with that.

 

[grcar]

I just noticed the Apple online refurbished store has all four 6,1 mac pros (4, 6, 8, 12 core) with a selection of memory and storage options. Unusual to see the 8 and 12 core units there.

Kinda looks to me like Apple is selling off the inventory of 6,1 mac pros.

Included is a pretty rare complete maxed out unit (12 core, 64GB, 1TB SSD, D700 GPU) at exactly 15% off.

 

[deconstruct60]

...
Seriously - doesn't the failure to update any of the "Mac" line (laptops, desktop, semi-pro workstation) make you worry?

If Intel had a completely smooth 14nm rollout and AMD wasn't shooting themselves in the foot over the last 2-3 years then yes. Given the bubbles and gaps in Intel's line up.( missing GT3/Iriis/Iris Pro gen 6 (skylakes), Xeon E5 v4 1600 slide about two quarters past initial roadmaps, etc. ) and Zen still sliding out a bit (assisting Intel to solve their problems at whatever pace they choose). Thirdly, Users are siting on hardware longer. No.

There is a high coupling in Apple's line up. the Mac Mini depends upon MBA and MBP 13" parts. If those two don't move the Mini isn't either. A gap in Intel's line up of 2-3 specific processor SKUs can stall out a large fraction of Apple's line up.

If Apple exits October and does nothing on the Mac front. Then yes. For the Mac Pro specifically if there is nothing by Jan-Feb '17 then I'd worry. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple had put the Mac Pro on a 3 year cycle. (2010 -> 2013, 2013 -> 2016). Probably need a long production ramp, so add some slack time and a target of Jan-Feb '17. ( If ramping production more solid leaks would probably spring up. ) It wasn't until 2014 that most of could to the current Mac Pro. 2014 + 3 = 2017.
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I just noticed the Apple online refurbished store has all four 6,1 mac pros (4, 6, 8, 12 core) with a selection of memory and storage options. Unusual to see the 8 and 12 core units there.

Kinda looks to me like Apple is selling off the inventory of 6,1 mac pros.

Refurbs are not selling off inventory. They are computers that other people returned ( off lease, bought but changed mind, financed but can't pay for , returned for repairs and now Apple thinks it works (after given original owner a new one), etc. ). Some one else has used them. There are peaks and valleys because the number of folks in those categories goes up and down over time.

If Apple was dumping inventory it would indirectly be through one of the larger, high volume 3rd parties. B&H, BestBuy , etc. Either Apple would press them to draw down their inventory (and take more) or cut them a bulk buy deal ( to flush the abnormally large (for them) inventory out). In general, Apple has some of has some of the lowest inventory levels in the business. They don't have warehouses full stuff and spend a ton of money not to be in that situation. Apple tends to order stuff built as they need it. When the demand goes down, the orders go down.

P.S. the other common inventory dumper is whatever Apple is bundling for "back to school" promo from June-August.

 

[grcar]

Refurbs are not selling off inventory.

Yeah, I know, but I have never before seen the entire mac pro product line in the refurb store. The complete mac mini line is also there.

No chance that Best Buy would stock a $10,000 unit in the hope it will sell for 15% off. They are not stupid.

 

[deconstruct60]

Yeah, I know, but I have never before seen the entire mac pro product line in the refurb store. The complete mac mini line is also there.

I think it is more a proxy of how non competitive the product is. An old quad core Mac Mini will disappear instantly. A returned Mac Pro will just languish. As the number of tech news stories build about the Mac Pro being 1000 days the number of buyers remorse returns are going to go up. It only takes 1-2 people returning a configuration to get it up on the refurb store.

No chance that Best Buy would stock a $10,000 unit in the hope it will sell for 15% off. They are not stupid.

I suspect Apple makes folks take at least token units. (e.g., BestBuy you want 1,000 MacBook Airs then you gotta take one Mac Pro. If you don't you won't be first in line on the next roll out. ). Industry low inventories are done in part by making your partners stock the inventory. Either your production suppliers (parts) , folks you supply (retailers) , or both.

Not in the stores, but in some BB warehouse somewhere there are at least 2-3.

 

[Peace]

Wow you people need a life.

 

[fastlanephil]

Yeah, I know, but I have never before seen the entire mac pro product line in the refurb store. The complete mac mini line is also there.

The only thing I've noticed lately from occasionally checking out the refurbished Mac Pros is there is always about the same number of different configurations for sale unlike previously there being just a few configurations at times. It probably is just supply and demand as these configurations do appear random. Also Apple doesn't advertise how many units of any one configuration are available until there isn't one.

 

[filmak]

Wow you people need a life.

A life? not an ARM cpu?

 

[Mago]

Where can this suggestion be found?!

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...s-announcements.1975249/page-36#post-23414501

 

[Hank Carter]

Ouch

 

[deconstruct60]

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...s-announcements.1975249/page-36#post-23414501

in other words ... no where. "could be" was a suggestion of what wanted to see in macOS Sierra, not what is actually listed.

 

[grcar]

Ouch

So sad. Tim Cook has made a liar out of Steve Jobs.

 

[Aldaris]

Ouch

I miss when apple stood for something-or at least made an attempt to appear that way depending on how you personally feel.

Those 2 minutes of Steve were better than all the cook attempts ever.

 

[R3k]

Wow you people need a life.

Mac Pro -> Productivity -> Income -> Life

 

[Hank Carter]

If Apple exits October and does nothing on the Mac front. Then yes. For the Mac Pro specifically if there is nothing by Jan-Feb '17 then I'd worry. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple had put the Mac Pro on a 3 year cycle. (2010 -> 2013, 2013 -> 2016). Probably need a long production ramp, so add some slack time and a target of Jan-Feb '17. ( If ramping production more solid leaks would probably spring up. ) It wasn't until 2014 that most of could to the current Mac Pro. 2014 + 3 = 2017.
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If Apple waits until Q1 of 2017 to update the Mac Pro without even the slightest hint dropped then there won't be any pro users left to buy them, when they finally do arrive. October is make or break for a lot of people. Many of us have held out as long as possible, but now we're been backed into a corner and work needs to get done ('hello' HP Z).

I hate to say it but in the pit of my stomach I got a bad feeling.

 

[zephonic]

Ouch

Ouch indeed. That used to be true. Not anymore. Apple is definitely price gouging with the desktops these days.

 

[mpta]

The lots of people here are asking what is the reason to not switching to windows. What about original software worth few thousands of $? Appstore and Itunes account is also not empty for some of us I guess. Besides that.. windows 10 is not rly for PRO users. My friend has a lots of issues with RAM. He's using windows and OSX on the same computer and OSX just works better. Maybe it's hardware stuff. I don't know. He just prefers OSX for working (GPU rendering with Octane and Cycles, Adobe Premiere, AE and PS).

For me also is important the visual aspect of the system. I know it's not a PRO reason but still.. I just like OSX

I think it would be nice to have:
nMP with CPU updates incl budget option with something like i7 5820 6core around 2k $ maybe silver cylinder case for it?
Replaceable GPUs with NVIDIA options.
Not only QUADRO but also GTX.. why not? It's good stuff for rendering.

Would you buy 2k $ i7 nMP with GTX 1070 and later upgrade second GTX 1070 (+ let's say 650$)?
I know it's not workstation anymore but this is best choice for GPU 3D rendering which is more and more popular.

2650$ nMP i7 6 core (i7-5820 6core performs like old MP 12 core) + 2x GTX 1070 (8GB ram) does sound good no?

 

[ManuelGomes]

that would (will?) be the Mac, not the Mac Pro.
The Mac Pro will always use ECC RAM and "workstation" cards to address those who need it.

 

[mpta]

that would (will?) be the Mac, not the Mac Pro.
The Mac Pro will always use ECC RAM and "workstation" cards to address those who need it.

True, but still more PRO than ipad PRO or mac mini PRO with mobile stuff inside

 

[rdav]

True, but still more PRO than ipad PRO or mac mini PRO with mobile stuff inside

It seems that the iPhone-7(A10) has a higher GeekBench score than some Mp(6,1) models. So that mobile stuff is apparently faster than versions of the latest (over one thousand days-old) Mac Pro. Obviously, we're comparing different types of oranges, but it's still concerning that the venerable Mac Pro is so lagging.

 

[mpta]

It seems that the iPhone-7(A10) has a higher GeekBench score than some Mp(6,1) models. So that mobile stuff is apparently faster than versions of the latest (over one thousand days-old) Mac Pro. Obviously, we're comparing different types of oranges, but it's still concerning that the venerable Mac Pro is so lagging.

That is really impressive indeed, but for me its like this:

RC car can be faster then the real car, but you won't go with it anywhere

 

[rGiskard]

that would (will?) be the Mac, not the Mac Pro.
The Mac Pro will always use ECC RAM and "workstation" cards to address those who need it.

It didn't always use "workstation" cards. Back in the day they were an option for those rare buyers who need them. Some of them wanted the option to run two high power cards in the Mac Pro, so then Apple outdid themselves with the Tube and forced everyone to buy old *workstation cards.

Careful what you wish for...
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That is really impressive indeed, but for me its like this:


RC car can be faster then the real car, but you won't go with it anywhere

The main issue is the x86 instruction set. Apple could easily add the necessary accelerated features to the A10 and up the core count, but without x86 compatibility it will have to be fast enough to do emulation, and that's not happening soon.

AMD Zen however...Apple did switch entirely to AMD GPUs. Maybe there's more to the switch than we know. I can see Apple EOLing the Tube and unleashing an iMac Zen. Or maybe a redesigned Zen Tube that looks more like a Mac Mini.

*The Tube is actually fitted with detuned AMD Tahiti GPUs, 7900 family without ECC. All that makes them "workstation" GPUs are the AMD drivers. Thus the Tube's core premise of being a GPGPU powerhouse is actually a con.

 

[Mago]

It didn't always use "workstation" cards. Back in the day they were an option for those rare buyers who need them. Some of them wanted the option to run two high power cards in the Mac Pro, so then Apple outdid themselves with the Tube and forced everyone to buy old workstation cards.

Careful what you wish for...
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The main issue is the x86 instruction set. Apple could easily add the necessary accelerated features to the A10 and up the core count, but without x86 compatibility it will have to be fast enough to do emulation, and that's not happening soon.

AMD Zen however...Apple did switch entirely to AMD GPUs. Maybe there's more to the switch than we know. I can see Apple EOLing the Tube and unleashing an iMac Zen. Or maybe a redesigned Zen Tube that looks more like a Mac Mini.

Despite what's geekbench said it's not the same platform as a desktop running macOS or Linux, this bench is not a pure CPU performance test as Apple marketing pretend you believe geekbench results vary depend on the system, iOS is not a full os its kernel deliberately don't support file lock and many core service mandatory on other kernels .

I'd like to see the A10 running the same kernel as Android 7 or desktop Linux to tell u the real performance of the A10 SOC.

Did you know HPC Clusters run a minimal kernel w/o unnecessary services removed in order to shrink the latest flop from the CPU.

iOS light kernel evidently has its drawbacks: while Android system can run process In a shared storage and memory pool even virtualize a full OS, things like this require an all new kernel for iOS.

iOS it's more like metal for GPUs and Android it's more like DX12.

 

[ssgbryan]

The lots of people here are asking what is the reason to not switching to windows. What about original software worth few thousands of $? Appstore and Itunes account is also not empty for some of us I guess. Besides that.. windows 10 is not rly for PRO users. My friend has a lots of issues with RAM. He's using windows and OSX on the same computer and OSX just works better. Maybe it's hardware stuff. I don't know. He just prefers OSX for working (GPU rendering with Octane and Cycles, Adobe Premiere, AE and PS).

For me also is important the visual aspect of the system. I know it's not a PRO reason but still.. I just like OSX

I think it would be nice to have:
nMP with CPU updates incl budget option with something like i7 5820 6core around 2k $ maybe silver cylinder case for it?
Replaceable GPUs with NVIDIA options.
Not only QUADRO but also GTX.. why not? It's good stuff for rendering.

Would you buy 2k $ i7 nMP with GTX 1070 and later upgrade second GTX 1070 (+ let's say 650$)?
I know it's not workstation anymore but this is best choice for GPU 3D rendering which is more and more popular.

2650$ nMP i7 6 core (i7-5820 6core performs like old MP 12 core) + 2x GTX 1070 (8GB ram) does sound good no?

How much of that software actually requires the end user to purchase a new version? If I move my entire workflow over to windows, it would only cost me $500 (ZBrush 5 - either Windows or Mac, due to how they price stuff). The rest of my software came with both windows and mac versions - I simply load the windows versions on my new Windows box & get to work.

Apple isn't giving us NVIDIA cards - they refuse to accept the fact that the world runs CUDA - a technology that P.T. Barnum bet against before he died in 2011.

If Apple offered a cMP form factor with current Xeon dual cores & NVIDIA cards, that I would buy. I have lots of HDs, a Blu-Ray player etc.

 

[deconstruct60]

If Apple waits until Q1 of 2017 to update the Mac Pro without even the slightest hint dropped then there won't be any pro users left to buy them, when they finally do arrive.

Pure hyperbole. There will probably be fewer but none? The is extremely unlikely.

Mac Pro users tend to update boxes on a 3-6 year cycle. (e.g., depreciation schedules of 3 or 5 years ). Apple is likely to loose folks letting go of the officially obsolete models ( 2009 and earlier ), but I doubt few of those are super high value targets for Apple. Customers who don't buy anything for more than half a decade aren't really customers ( not in a exchange money for goods and services relationship. ). Folks who bought a 2012 model are at high risk (i.e., the 3 year schedule folks). Folks who bought 2013 models in 2013-2015 are not.

October is make or break for a lot of people.

A lot people isn't everybody.

Many of us have held out as long as possible, but now we're been backed into a corner and work needs to get done ('hello' HP Z).

HP Z has been an option on the table since 2010 era. That isn't new. 90% of people buying PCs buy Windows boxes every day. That happens for Appel each day. It isn't a crisis for them. And there are still people moving the opposite direction ( dropping Windows for macOS). Again not a crisis for Apple.

I hate to say it but in the pit of my stomach I got a bad feeling.

An "around every 3 years" would seem to indicate that the Mac Pro had been placed in a kind of "hobby" project status. Do one every once in a while for giggles and bragging rights ( "can't innovate my ass"). If it doesn't have to meet any growth targets then it may stick around and get occasional resource allocations. (think iPod Touch. not dead yet but some updates when Apple has copious spare time. )

For most of 2013 Apple has no Mac Pro to offer in the EU ( "old" or new) and probably chased off a decent chunk of customers and still released the Mac Pro 2013. Only they know how many they got back or where permanently lost.

I pegged the Jan-Feb 2017 window for as measure of just how low a priority the Mac Pro is. If it has been deprioritize so far as a hobby project that they can't do something by that deadline then most folks should just move on. If the release cycle is shifting from 1 yr to 3 yrs to > 3 yrs then the product is on a death spiral.

IMHO, i'd be surprised if Apple even resourced anyone to do serious work on a new Mac Pro before April-July 2015. If they had started substantially earlier than that, they would have finished by now with a reasonable resourced team.
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Ouch indeed. That used to be true. Not anymore. Apple is definitely price gouging with the desktops these days.

Apple's margins on Macs now are about what they were we Jobs was making references. Same issue of bringing what comparing against up to "apples to apples" standards. [ And throw to the outlier of the initial Mac Pros after the Intel transition which were highly just rebadged Intel stuff just to rapidly speed up the "1 year transition to x86" process. ]

The hype these diays is that Apple should be discounting for products that sit on the market longer. Jobs didn't support that. The price is fixed until the next one comes is a Jobs era policy.

Apple's Mac problem is more so that they shifted from "We don't ship junk" to "We don't ship". That seems largely due to a "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" problem. They have about one product line where they can ship at a consistent cadence. But to keep that up they have to throw other product lines under the bus. As long as suppliers are giving them not parts options faster than they can use them that was hidden. When Apple has to be more innovate with what's on the table (at slower rates) they have little value add outside of their singular focus area.