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jimmy43

macrumors regular
Apr 9, 2008
105
82
Forget about the redesign for 2020
Next year we will have probably the 14”, and 13” will remain for the macbook air for those who wants the ultimate mac portability
Probably next year only the imac could see a slightly redesign
The ARM will begin for non pro macs, like macbook air or entry level imac or mac mini

Pretty much the most sensible way to go. Which professional wants an ARM based MBP which has support for so few of the frameworks they use? Will the brew package manager even work for its release? How about the tens of thousands of packages that people rely on? How bout the stability of every non-apple developed app, like Chrome, Adobe, etc. ARM conversion is no small undertaking. The most likely route is Apple will create an 'arm-branch' of their laptop line and most of their software, and it will take years for all other developers and Apple themselves to get it to the place where intel support is at.

In terms of hardware, you are dreaming if you think there is another redesign coming. Think about this- Tim cook walks into a room and says, great job everyone, people are loving the new MBP 16. Now, please go and design a new version that wastes all the effort ($$$) and time ($$$) we sunk into this one. If even there was one already in development - its likely to be pushed back now if nobody has any major complaints. Tim Cook is all about optimization and what you are suggesting is just about the most suboptimal action there is. And even if this unlikely scenario were to play out, as others have pointed out, there is very few new tech that could constitute a redesign cpu bump, maybe faceid, thats about it.
 

dk808

macrumors 6502a
May 13, 2015
616
364
Do you guys really think the 14 inch is coming? It seems logical but I also saw some people on this forum say it might not be possible or something? 14 inch would be the perfect size laptop for me so I’m really hoping Apple makes one
 

Howard2k

macrumors 603
Mar 10, 2016
5,721
5,675
Do you guys really think the 14 inch is coming? It seems logical but I also saw some people on this forum say it might not be possible or something? 14 inch would be the perfect size laptop for me so I’m really hoping Apple makes one

There has been speculation from forum members but no rumours from the industry that I’ve seen. The opposite in fact, it’s rumoured that the 13” will get a new keyboard.

I expect an update in capabilities, but not in screen size.
 
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PastaPrimav

Suspended
Nov 6, 2017
929
1,495
I don't see Apple going down the ARM transition route when it's clear to nearly all of us that the future of Mac is iPad Pro. For some use cases, we're not there yet obviously. But we're getting there, and an iPad is the best choice now for more than 95% of all users. Until that 95% figure gets closer to 99%, Apple will continue offering legacy Mac products to keep its whiney pro customers happy. But I don't see Apple investing in a major platform transition for the Mac line, not now the writing is clearly on the wall for its impending death.
Nope. Not clear to anyone including Apple.
 

dk808

macrumors 6502a
May 13, 2015
616
364
I feel there’s too much of a difference between a 13 inch and 16 inch. Hopefully Apple brings something in the middle to close that gap. 13 inch seems a little too small for me and 16 a little too big coming from a 15 inch mbp user
 

fokmik

Suspended
Oct 28, 2016
4,909
4,688
USA
Yes, i think thats what apple wants
To have again the mb air as the most portable mac with 13.3”, and make 14 and 16” mbp
[automerge]1574842895[/automerge]
14” with 70w hour battery, 10nm intel wifi6 will be a succes for most
 

Macbookprodude

Suspended
Jan 1, 2018
3,306
898
Hopefully, Apple won’t prevent us from upgrading our computers like the 16 inch junk they released a few weeks ago - junk because 2 years from now you can’t upgrade anything, as everything is soldered to board, SSD and all.
 

Lakersfan74

Suspended
Oct 17, 2019
900
1,124
MacBook Air should go away. MacBook and MacBook Pro only. MacBook 8GB/16GB...256 and 512.. MacBook Pro 16GB/32GB...1T and 2T. Display, keyboard, trackpad and speakers are the same on both. All configs with or without Touchbar.
 
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x-evil-x

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
5,598
3,282
Apple is going to need to lower the price of the next 13” with what you get for a base model 15” the upgrade is huge. That or start putting dgpu’s in them and upgrading the screen. For a higher end 13” your already spending about the same as a 16”.
 

MBX

macrumors 68020
Sep 14, 2006
2,030
817
Yeah no redesign next year. Most likely iMacs/ Pro redesigns as well as possible ARM-MacBook Air. Or maybe they'll reintroduce the thin MacBooks again for the ARM CPU's who knows.

I for one can't wait for Apple switch to their AX CPU's. The iPad Pro is so good, almost on paar to MacBook Pro's. So I hope MacBook Pro ARM in next 1-2 years.
 

falcon511

macrumors member
Apr 23, 2016
39
14
So question, next we are not expecting Intel to release its 10nm for the H line of cpus correct? That is sometime in 2021(jeez intel get on the ****ing ball)? I ask because I want to get a macbook pro in the future but I refuse to buy another 14nm cpu. I think I have owned like 3 or 4 computers that were 14nm.
 

koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
5,939
1,853
So question, next we are not expecting Intel to release its 10nm for the H line of cpus correct? That is sometime in 2021(jeez intel get on the ****ing ball)? I ask because I want to get a macbook pro in the future but I refuse to buy another 14nm cpu. I think I have owned like 3 or 4 computers that were 14nm.
You will get 7 nm AMD CPU based MacBook Pro, then. Enjoy.
 
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danwells

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2015
783
617
AMD doesn't seem (so far) to have any interest in 7 nm mobile CPUs/APUs, and, when they finally do, I bet they are low-power quad cores, not 45W (in addition to GPU power if it's an APU) monsters that really have one major customer. If I were AMD, here's why I wouldn't be interested

The 15-16"" MBP outsells all other mobile workstations combined by a wide margin - the mobile workstation market (exclusive of the MBP) is on the order of $1.5 billion/year, while the Mac market is about $25 billion/year, 80% of which is notebooks. If the big MBP accounts for 1 dollar in 4 of Mac notebook sales (and I bet it's higher than that), it's around $4.5-5 billion/year, 3x the size of the remaining mobile workstation market.

Gaming laptops are a ~$12 billion market (again, the MacBook Pro isn't part of that), but not all of those use the 6 and 8 core H-series chips (13" "gaming" laptops don't, and there are a fair number of economy "gaming" laptops that don't, either). The top two sellers in the gaming category at Best Buy are inexpensive machines that use i5s or mobile Ryzens, and, while the best sellers at Newegg and B&H are 6-core H-series, there are quite a few machines scattered in the gaming category that are not.

The 15-16" MBP alone probably produces half the revenue of the entire gaming laptop market (take out the low-end quad-core gaming models, and it's more than that). If you include the 13" MacBook Pro as using similar CPUs to quad-core gaming laptops, Apple's sales are probably greater than the entire gaming laptop market.

Global laptop market (includes Chromebooks, etc. but not iPads) - $USD 107 billion
Apple laptop market - $20 billion (market share by units shipped is around 8%, but Macs are disproportionately expensive)
Gaming laptop market - $12 billion
Mobile workstation market - $1.5 billion

For H-series 6 and 8 core chips alone:
Apple - $5-8 billion??
Gaming - $6-9 billion??
Mobile workstation - $1.5 billion

The remaining $90 billion or so of the laptop market is in low-power chips...

Since the gaming machines are spread across so many vendors, there aren't many significant customers to chase. Dell is probably the largest non-Apple customer for H-series chips, and they're around $2 billion/year in H-series 6+ core laptop sales at a guess (there aren't public numbers breaking this out, but there are enough figures for an educated guess). Is AMD interested in that smallish market, 40% of which is one company, or would they rather build improved low-power chips to compete for the remaining $90 billion market?
 
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Mr. Dee

macrumors 603
Dec 4, 2003
5,990
12,840
Jamaica
I believe Apple will only fully adopt A-Series on the Mac when the app ecosystem is rich enough. They likely wanted to do this in 2021, but Catalyst is still being figured out. So, they will go with a co-processor strategy initially. Just like they have for years whether it was switchable graphics, the T1/T2 chip. The version of macOS Apple will likely launch for this will have the necessary frameworks to run both x86 apps and A-Series targetted apps as a universal binary. When you launch an app, the right instruction set just chips in for it with the best optimization.
 

Ener Ji

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2010
475
343
AMD doesn't seem (so far) to have any interest in 7 nm mobile CPUs/APUs, and, when they finally do, I bet they are low-power quad cores, not 45W (in addition to GPU power if it's an APU) monsters that really have one major customer. If I were AMD, here's why I wouldn't be interested
<snip>

Just wanted to say that was very interesting analysis and seems very logical to me. It makes perfect sense why AMD would want to focus on the biggest parts of the market first.
 

littlepud

macrumors 6502
Sep 16, 2012
470
333
Just wanted to say that was very interesting analysis and seems very logical to me. It makes perfect sense why AMD would want to focus on the biggest parts of the market first.

Fab time on TSMC 7nm is probably not cheap. I would expect AMD (and others) to use 7nm for their highest-margin SKUs, of which APUs and mainstream CPUs/GPUs are probably not.

In addition, the parts that benefit the most from die shrinks (esp. for increased manufacturing yields) are likely to be the largest and highest power parts, which are generally the most expensive SKUs.
 

danwells

macrumors 6502a
Apr 4, 2015
783
617
The expensive fab time argues for server parts (which AMD is doing)... Profit margins on server stuff are really high. A 16 core Ryzen (two chiplets plus an I/O die) sells for $749. A 32 Core Threadripper (four of the same chiplets plus a (more complex) I/O die) goes for $1999. If you want eight chiplets with your I/O die, the Epyc with that design goes for $6950! More than twice as much as four Ryzens that use the same chiplets... The big server I/O die doesn't cost $4000, much of that is profit.

I suspect low power laptop parts offer more $/mm^2 of wafer than H-series laptop parts? The other argument for low power is that chip design is expensive. You can amortize a design over many more U-series parts than H-series parts. AMD gets around this on desktop and server parts with their chiplet design - they use the same cores across a wide range of chips, varying only the I/O die and number of chiplets. That's probably hard to do on a laptop chip, where small size really matters.
 
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koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
5,939
1,853
AMD doesn't seem (so far) to have any interest in 7 nm mobile CPUs/APUs, and, when they finally do, I bet they are low-power quad cores, not 45W (in addition to GPU power if it's an APU) monsters that really have one major customer. If I were AMD, here's why I wouldn't be interested
And why are 6C/12T and 8C/16T APUs launching in Q1 2020? AMD not being interested in mobile market? The most lucrative one in consumer space, of them all?
I believe Apple will only fully adopt A-Series on the Mac when the app ecosystem is rich enough. They likely wanted to do this in 2021, but Catalyst is still being figured out. So, they will go with a co-processor strategy initially. Just like they have for years whether it was switchable graphics, the T1/T2 chip. The version of macOS Apple will likely launch for this will have the necessary frameworks to run both x86 apps and A-Series targetted apps as a universal binary. When you launch an app, the right instruction set just chips in for it with the best optimization.
If any A series based MacBook will appear it will be Chromebook competitior. Entry level option for Apple services, and education.

Apple already put AMD APUs(all of the previous ones, and future ones) into the MacOS Catalina beta. Its easier to switch from x86 to x86 architectures, or simply - switch CPU vendors, than to switch from x86 to ARM, no matter how people will try to spin this.

I suspect low power laptop parts offer more $/mm^2 of wafer than H-series laptop parts? The other argument for low power is that chip design is expensive. You can amortize a design over many more U-series parts than H-series parts. AMD gets around this on desktop and server parts with their chiplet design - they use the same cores across a wide range of chips, varying only the I/O die and number of chiplets. That's probably hard to do on a laptop chip, where small size really matters.
Mobile APUs(AMD Renoir) are monolithic. They are not chiplet based.
 

matram

macrumors 6502a
Sep 18, 2011
781
416
Sweden
Could there be a collaboration between Apple and AMD resulting in a "hybrid" CPUs combining x86 cores with Apples ARM cores and maybe parts of the T2 chip?

If any A series based MacBook will appear it will be Chromebook competitior. Entry level option for Apple services, and education.

Apple already put AMD APUs(all of the previous ones, and future ones) into the MacOS Catalina beta. Its easier to switch from x86 to x86 architectures, or simply - switch CPU vendors, than to switch from x86 to ARM, no matter how people will try to spin this.
 
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