Well, That Was Quick - Bored Already, Not Going To Keep Apple Music

[shandyman]

The only way that an individual can "discover" new music is by hunting and pecking for it.

Think of a record store circa 1980. If you blow past all the Styx and Sugar Hill Gang being marketed in the front windows you'd have to go through the entire A-Z alphabetical archive to find a 12" square piece of vinyl with a name that you've never heard of. Rack after rack, row after row, looking for something that looked interesting just based on its sleeve art. With Apple Music, same thing. The only way to discover something new is by using keywords and using the Search box. Start with "A", work your way to "Z" so you don't miss anything.

All other methods are curated by someone or some corporation, no different than Rolling Stone magazine reviews in 1980. Some editor in San Francisco deciding which albums are good or bad and, more germainely, deciding which ones were even worthy of reviewing to begin with. Today's Beats 1, For You, custom playlists, somewhere in Cupertino there is a guy who decides what makes the cut as a 'push' for the month of August and who gets ignored, someone is deciding the track list for the Apple Alternative Radio station.

"Discovery" is a myth. It's cumbersome and unrealistic. And it's the only thing justifying Apple Music as a value of any sort. Hence the issue.

BJ

Rubbish. I listen to Zane Lowe, have done for years. In listening to him, I've discovered more new music than any other way. There's stuff that he plays that you'd never have gotten anywhere else.

 

[boltjames]

Sorry, but with the greatest of respect its difficult to image any children not discovering music beyond their parent's music collection.

If I didn't imply it properly let me clarify:

For the Archive of Past Artists: I feel confident that I have 99% of what they'd want in my 25,000 song library. And if there were a few artists or albums that they want that I don't have, purchasing those few missing tracks will not cost $7,200 which is the cost of subscription to Apple Music for the rest of their lives.

For the Discovery of New Artists: The following services are free and will do a superior job to Apple Music to expose my offspring to quality newness: iTunes Radio, iTunes Previews, FM Radio, XM Radio, Pandora, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, TV shows, movies, documentaries, Later with Jools Holland, and the vast array of social and aural media available today.

Going back to your $24 a year for two albums plus the streaming service.

Just plug that in to the Indian restaurant analogy.

Supposing there is a town where everyone likes to eat out in restaurants, but the average spend in that Indian restaurant, taking everyone in the town into account, is $1. Enough for a poppadom.

Would you propose that they could charge people $2 for two poppadoms plus an all you can eat buffet?

Because that is essentially what you are proposing for Apple Music.

Clever, but no.

Ask yourself why in a world where you can create a free iTunes Radio station called "Born To Run" that will call upon the 30 million song catalog and feed an endless and fresh flow of Bruce Springsteen, Tom Petty, Jackson Browne, Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, et al, you would need to pay for the same privilege? Because you can call these songs all on demand, right?

So the value proposition in Apple Music is that instead of putting on "Born To Run" radio for an 8 hour barbecue for free it's better to put in a lot of work to download and curate your own playlist of 100 songs at a perpetual cost of $120 a year. That's completely backwards today. That's the 2003 iTunes model that streaming is putting out to pasture, that's why Pandora was blow-your-mind awesome when it was released and Spotify is a big yawn.

BJ

 

[boltjames]

Rubbish. I listen to Zane Lowe, have done for years. In listening to him, I've discovered more new music than any other way. There's stuff that he plays that you'd never have gotten anywhere else.

Sounds good.

I've never heard of Zane Lowe in my life but I'll bet you anything that the stuff he broke that you discovered got to me just a few weeks later. Maybe he broke Interpol. Maybe he broke Spoon. Maybe he broke Tame Impala.

So you keep paying to listen to Zane and the rest of us will just wait a week if his choices are good enough and they emerge to the populous. That's the thing about good music; it spreads like wildfire. It's not like, shh, Zane Lowe is a big secret and only the cool kids on Apple Music get to hear his sage wisdom. The good music gets out there quickly. It always does. Especially today when there is so little of it.

BJ

 

[boltjames]

No trolling here..... this thread keeps coming up as unread in the forum. Time to close it.

Great idea, let's close every discussion you find disagreeable. Especially one that at its root is talking about freedom of choice and the discovery of expression. Irony.

BJ

 

[shandyman]

Sounds good.

I've never heard of Zane Lowe in my life but I'll bet you anything that the stuff he broke that you discovered got to me just a few weeks later. Maybe he broke Interpol. Maybe he broke Spoon. Maybe he broke Tame Impala.

So you keep paying to listen to Zane and the rest of us will just wait a week if his choices are good enough and they emerge to the populous. That's the thing about good music; it spreads like wildfire. It's not like, shh, Zane Lowe is a big secret and only the cool kids on Apple Music get to hear his sage wisdom. The good music gets out there quickly. It always does. Especially today when there is so little of it.

BJ

So, I provide an example of discovery that proves your earlier poo pooing of discovery wrong, are you now changing your tone?

 

[Rigby]

And since I'm the only one speaking on behalf of the common, average iTunes user, I think that my opinions generally do apply to all but the 1%'er outliers like yourself. The others putting up arguments appear to download 500+ songs a year. Apple's math says it's only 12. Huge discrepancy.

If you want to keep throwing around that number, at least do it properly. The $12 figure is not from Apple, but an analyst estimate. Also, as has been pointed out numerous times, it is not an accurate indication of what music consumers spend on music on average, because (a) not all iTunes accounts are used for music purchases (many only exist because people got an iPhone and wanted to download some apps), and (b) even consumers who do purchase music from iTunes are not necessarily using iTunes exclusively to consume music. In fact, the iTunes sell-through numbers have been in decline for years precisely because many consumers have additionally subscribed to streaming services such as Spotify (which is the primary reason why Apple is now introducing Apple Music to stop the hemorrhaging).

Further, your argument seems to be that subscription services are an attempt by the music industry to extract "ten times the money" from consumers based on some average spending number for sell-through services. How about this statistic:

http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/6229258/latinos-spend-more-on-music

According to this, consumers on average spend $14 per year on digital albums and tracks. They spend $3 on average on streaming services. By your logic, that would suggest streamers actually spend less on average than purchasers, doesn't it?

 

[shandyman]

I feel confident that I have 99% of what they'd want in my 25,000 song library. And if there were a few artists or albums that they want that I don't have, purchasing those few missing tracks will not cost $7,200 which is the cost of subscription to Apple Music for the rest of their lives.

This is the reason YOU find Apple Music a ripoff, etc. You're a minority. You're not the average user.

You don't see any value in the service for yourself, which is fair enough and valid. If that's all you had said, this thread would have ended quickly. The issue is you're projecting your situation and claiming its a universal truth for everyone. It's not. That's what the issue is.

 

[boltjames]

But for that to work everyone who currently buys no music would have to subscribe.

But why would they do that?

Because if one could get access to all the world's music and keep the subset of songs they truly like forever and it's offered at a fair and natural price you'd get a lot more people to sign up for it. Apple Music holds your songs and playlists hostage. Shut off the service, lose it all.

Music simply isn't worth $120 a year when it's all around you for free at any time. This isn't Movies, as an example, which can only be seen in a theater or living room under special circumstances. You don't get free exposure to Movies in elevators, toilets, buses, and cars. With Music, you do. I might pay $120 a year for the ability to see an unlimited amount of Movies in theaters in a year. I'd never pay that for Music. Because something is on right now that will satisfy me. And it's free.

BJ

 

[shandyman]

Apple Music holds your songs and playlists hostage. Shut off the service, lose it all.

iTunes holds your purchased songs hostage. Shut off the service, lose it all.

 

[boltjames]

iTunes holds your purchased songs hostage. Shut off the service, lose it all.

No it does not. Songs I have purchased from iTunes are mine to keep, the AAC format is translatable and playable on several apps, and I have backups on drives to ensure that if I have a physical failure I have my Library complete and safe.

It's 7PM on a Friday night in the UK. I assume you're drinking, yes?

BJ

 

[boltjames]

This is the reason YOU find Apple Music a ripoff, etc. You're a minority. You're not the average user.

I'm speaking of my children who are 11, 14, and 16. I think I'm quite qualified to voice an authoritative opinion in that regard.

BJ

 

[boltjames]

You don't see any value in the service for yourself, which is fair enough and valid. If that's all you had said, this thread would have ended quickly. The issue is you're projecting your situation and claiming its a universal truth for everyone. It's not. That's what the issue is.

Spotify has 60 million users of which 25% pay $9.99 a month for the service.

That's 15 million paying customers.

iTunes has 800 million users and, being very conservative, let's say they too only have 25% who pay to download songs each year.

That's 200 million paying customers. And if I put the proper number in there, say 50%, that number grows to 400 million paying customers quite easily.

Streaming services are a niche business, a strange startup-like plaything for people who are strangely fickle about music. So what I'm saying actually is the universal truth for everyone. If not, the universal truth for 97% of everyone which is close enough.

BJ

 

[boltjames]

So, I provide an example of discovery that proves your earlier poo pooing of discovery wrong, are you now changing your tone?

No. I'm saying that Zane Lowe, who I've never heard of, possibly breaks new artists faster than any other DJ and that gives you a two week head start on the rest of us who get our newly braking artists from free sources like FM radio, XM radio, iTunes radio, iTunes previews, iTunes Top 100 Lists, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, etc.

And I'm also saying that two week head start isn't worth $120 a year to rational people.

BJ

 

[boltjames]

If you want to keep throwing around that number, at least do it properly. The $12 figure is not from Apple, but an analyst estimate. Also, as has been pointed out numerous times, it is not an accurate indication of what music consumers spend on music on average, because (a) not all iTunes accounts are used for music purchases (many only exist because people got an iPhone and wanted to download some apps), and (b) even consumers who do purchase music from iTunes are not necessarily using iTunes exclusively to consume music. In fact, the iTunes sell-through numbers have been in decline for years precisely because many consumers have additionally subscribed to streaming services such as Spotify (which is the primary reason why Apple is now introducing Apple Music to stop the hemorrhaging).

Hey, make the average $12, $24, $36, whatever you like. Why? It doesn't matter.

When you look at Spotify and its lame 15 million paying customers compared to iTunes whopping 800 million users it's very apparent that we're talking about nothing here. 1.8% of iTunes users pay for Spotify. Stop the presses. OMG. It's the same geeks who got the Apple Watch or the NEST thermometer for cripesakes, lots of talk over nothing.

BJ

 

[Supermallet]

The only way that an individual can "discover" new music is by hunting and pecking for it.

Think of a record store circa 1980. If you blow past all the Styx and Sugar Hill Gang being marketed in the front windows you'd have to go through the entire A-Z alphabetical archive to find a 12" square piece of vinyl with a name that you've never heard of. Rack after rack, row after row, looking for something that looked interesting just based on its sleeve art. With Apple Music, same thing. The only way to discover something new is by using keywords and using the Search box. Start with "A", work your way to "Z" so you don't miss anything.

All other methods are curated by someone or some corporation, no different than Rolling Stone magazine reviews in 1980. Some editor in San Francisco deciding which albums are good or bad and, more germainely, deciding which ones were even worthy of reviewing to begin with. Today's Beats 1, For You, custom playlists, somewhere in Cupertino there is a guy who decides what makes the cut as a 'push' for the month of August and who gets ignored, someone is deciding the track list for the Apple Alternative Radio station.

"Discovery" is a myth. It's cumbersome and unrealistic. And it's the only thing justifying Apple Music as a value of any sort. Hence the issue.

BJ

This is the oddest argument I've ever heard. Did you used to do this? You'd go to a record store and start at A and ask to listen to every artist you hadn't heard of before?

If so, then my hat's off to you. You must have listened to an incredible amount of awful music to get those 25,000 songs you like.

However, if there's a service that takes what I like, based on my library and inputs I've given, and can offer me new tracks I've never heard that are in line with my tastes, that seems to be a much more fruitful method of discovery than manually going through every album I've never heard before. Now, you may say Pandora does that. I've found that on the whole, it does not. Because Pandora can't really know what I have and haven't heard. I can thumbs up or thumbs down to tell it what I do and don't like, but that's not the same as discovering new music.

In theory, Apple Music SHOULD be able to know what I have and what I don't have and recommend new things based on what I don't have.

That being said, it seems like AM hasn't really come through on this yet, so I can see why that aspect would be disappointing. But make no mistake, that is where all these services are trying to go. We may see the primary method of music consumption going from albums/singles to playlists. In which case, services like this will be tremendously useful, because a song might be great in the context of a playlist, but you don't feel the need to own it.

That being said, streaming services have one major advantage over radio stations. There's a limited amount of radio stations that cater to a specific demographic, and in terrestrial radio, those stations are hamstrung by corporate agreements on what to play when. So the likelihood of discovering new music on the radio is nil. iTunes Radio/Pandora is slightly better in this regard, but again they tend to track toward hits and recognizable songs, plus the aforementioned issue that they don't really know what you have and don't have. Streaming can offer me a limitless supply of suggestions, free of corporate tie-ins and narrow restrictions of genre. Now, Apple Music certainly has artists it's promoting, but if I never listen to Drake, I'm not going to see a Drake playlist show up in the "For You" section. If I listen to a lot of Queens of the Stone Age though, I may see a KYUSS playlist pop up, or a playlist of new stoner metal.

I do think streaming services can be used to aid much greater music discovery than we've ever had in the past. And as the technology gets more sophisticated, I think we'll see exactly that happening.

I realize that's not much value to someone who wants to listen to just the same songs over and over, but it's very valuable to lots of other people.

 

[Dub1ous]

Hey, make the average $12, $24, $36, whatever you like. Why? It doesn't matter.

When you look at Spotify and its lame 15 million paying customers compared to iTunes whopping 800 million users it's very apparent that we're talking about nothing here. 1.8% of iTunes users pay for Spotify. Stop the presses. OMG. It's the same geeks who got the Apple Watch or the NEST thermometer for cripesakes, lots of talk over nothing.

BJ

I've tried to be pretty neutral about all of this and respect your view, but seriously dude, you're making sweeping generalization after sweeping generalization that disrespects a lot of people, and somehow expecting them to let you jam your argument down their throat.

 

[Uofmtiger]

No. I'm saying that Zane Lowe, who I've never heard of, possibly breaks new artists faster than any other DJ and that gives you a two week head start on the rest of us who get our newly braking artists from free sources like FM radio, XM radio, iTunes radio, iTunes previews, iTunes Top 100 Lists, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, etc.

And I'm also saying that two week head start isn't worth $120 a year to rational people.

BJ

XM Radio is not free. It costs more per month than Apple Music and if you want the full lineup it costs more than twice as much and costs even more if you want internet access. If you got it with your car, they lumped it into your car's price or with the price of an additional "package".

 

[shandyman]

No it does not. Songs I have purchased from iTunes are mine to keep, the AAC format is translatable and playable on several apps, and I have backups on drives to ensure that if I have a physical failure I have my Library complete and safe.

It's 7PM on a Friday night in the UK. I assume you're drinking, yes?

BJ

If you lost your 'backups', you're screwed.

Again, making personal attacks. I abstain from alcohol, so I take offends to your accusation. How would you like me to ask if you're high....

 

[shandyman]

Spotify has 60 million users of which 25% pay $9.99 a month for the service.

That's 15 million paying customers.

iTunes has 800 million users and, being very conservative, let's say they too only have 25% who pay to download songs each year.

That's 200 million paying customers. And if I put the proper number in there, say 50%, that number grows to 400 million paying customers quite easily.

Streaming services are a niche business, a strange startup-like plaything for people who are strangely fickle about music. So what I'm saying actually is the universal truth for everyone. If not, the universal truth for 97% of everyone which is close enough.

BJ

Actually, 75 million people, 25 million are paying. Spotify is but one streaming company, amongst many.

97% is an absurd made up number. Your 200 million is also made up. Come back with real numbers of active accounts that buy music, then maybe you'll actually have something approaching a valid point.

 

[shandyman]

No. I'm saying that Zane Lowe, who I've never heard of, possibly breaks new artists faster than any other DJ and that gives you a two week head start on the rest of us who get our newly braking artists from free sources like FM radio, XM radio, iTunes radio, iTunes previews, iTunes Top 100 Lists, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, etc.

And I'm also saying that two week head start isn't worth $120 a year to rational people.

BJ

2 weeks head start is rubbish. Months more like it.

 

[shandyman]

Hey, make the average $12, $24, $36, whatever you like. Why? It doesn't matter.

When you look at Spotify and its lame 15 million paying customers compared to iTunes whopping 800 million users it's very apparent that we're talking about nothing here. 1.8% of iTunes users pay for Spotify. Stop the presses. OMG. It's the same geeks who got the Apple Watch or the NEST thermometer for cripesakes, lots of talk over nothing.

BJ

800 million users is not 800 million people buying music.

 

[navaira]

I just got recommended "Intro to Kylie Minogue" (I have all her albums and most singles in my library), "Michael Jackson: The 90s and Beyond" (I have all Michael Jackson albums except Off The Wall), Air's 10,000 Hz Legend (their worst record, which I also own) and Britney's Blackout (her best record, which I also own).

Also, this:



I don't love you because you're dumber than a bag of bricks, Apple Music, that's why.

I've had enough.

Goodbye Apple Music. If good people on this forum, ones with more patience than me, tell me you've been improved, I might check you out again. Or not.

How to switch off Apple Music on Mac and iOS device

 

[shandyman]

I just got recommended "Intro to Kylie Minogue" (I have all her albums and most singles in my library), "Michael Jackson: The 90s and Beyond" (I have all Michael Jackson albums except Off The Wall), Air's 10,000 Hz Legend (their worst record, which I also own) and Britney's Blackout (her best record, which I also own).

Also, this:

View attachment 569355

I don't love you because you're dumber than a bag of bricks, Apple Music, that's why.

I've had enough.

View attachment 569354

Goodbye Apple Music. If good people on this forum, ones with more patience than me, tell me you've been improved, I might check you out again. Or not.

How to switch off Apple Music on Mac and iOS device

I went from mostly 'intro to' in the first week, to playlists like 'deeper cuts', 'b sides', 'artists that inspired (one of the artists I already have'. Since launch, it has been improving, but you have to actually be active in your likes and dislikes. How's it meant to learn if you don't bother. It's not a mind reader. I have been liking songs, artists, any playlist it recommends that I think is wrong, I tell it that. A lot of people complaining, don't actually pay attention to how it works.

I just got recommended an 'open-road rock songs, playlist this morning. It has about 5 artists I have in my library. There were some other I knew of, more that I didn't. I then ended up listening to more music by one of the bands in that playlist. Discovered a new band that I'd never heard before and may not have, without this.

Moral is, actually try to use it and you'll get some payoff.

 

[Uofmtiger]

Hey, make the average $12, $24, $36, whatever you like. Why? It doesn't matter.

When you look at Spotify and its lame 15 million paying customers compared to iTunes whopping 800 million users it's very apparent that we're talking about nothing here. 1.8% of iTunes users pay for Spotify. Stop the presses. OMG. It's the same geeks who got the Apple Watch or the NEST thermometer for cripesakes, lots of talk over nothing.

BJ

The streaming market is trending upward (see below) and Apple has an iTunes user base of 800 million they can leverage. Seems like a pretty smart move based on those two things.

"As of June 2015, Spotify had 20 million paying subscribers worldwide, up from 10 million paying subscribers in May 2014."

"As industry observers see the growing dominance of streaming, many have waited for the moment when it would become more important than digital downloads. Warner Music Group announced its first quarter earnings ending on March 31, and the main takeaway from their report was that streaming has at last surpassed downloads as the primary source of revenue for the smallest of the three major labels."

 

[navaira]

Since launch, it has been improving, but you have to actually be active in your likes and dislikes. How's it meant to learn if you don't bother.

I actually spent quite a lot of time going through my library and hearting things in order for For You to improve (even though I still believe it should have enough material from looking at playcounts and "last played" dates). A day later it recommended me a CD I ripped the day before. True, I didn't heart it. If I had infinite amounts of free time I'd go through my 4835 albums, but unfortunately I have other things to do than teach For You about my taste. As I said, maybe the first public beta, i.e. 12.2.2 improves the algorithm and then I'll check it out again. And I might take a chance with iCloud around 12.2.6 unless my free trial expires first.

Sorry I'm ranting (but I think I'm kinda on topic). It's my personal experience, your mileage may vary, etc.

Edit: Oh and by the way there is no way you can dislike something on a Mac, or I haven't discovered it.