What do you actually need an iOS File System for?

[alecgold]

If I have 2 apps that I need to use to edit a particular file and I have that file in Documents, I have to "save copy to..." or "send to..." app#1, make changes, send the file back to Documents, and within Documents send it to app#2, and then back to Documents.

That results in 3 copies of the file... in app#1's sandbox, app#2's sandbox, and Documents.

What I do is the other way around. So I open word, open the file I want to work on, save the file (well, word.app auto saves by default). Then I could open the second app and open the same file in the second app.
What specific files/apps is it about?!
Documents is for file/folder-management

 

[Mathias Denichi]

Is that more of a problem with the limited capabilities of an application? e.g. if you had one application that was good enough to edit video and audio, you wouldn't need to export and save to other programs etc?

It's a fundamental issue with iOS and app size. With app size constraints, there can't be one app with all functions with the 4gb app size limit on the iPad Pro, specially for any Video or Photo editing app. The purchasing of workflow alone shows Apple wants you to work in multiple apps on a project, rather than everything in one bloated program.

For this, there are three main issues with iPad as a professional video, or photo editing device, (what they market to with the pencil etc.):

1. App size limit.
2. iCloud Drive compatibility (most support Dropbox; even safari supports dropbox over iCloud drive due to APIs).
3. Ability of and saving a single file copy from iCloud Drive in any app.

It's plain inefficient, and not user friendly to have multiple copies of a file when it would save space, time and memory to open from iCloud Drive alone. If Apple opens iCloud drive to be able to do this, and gives developers access, then it would be the application author's issue to properly adapt it.

 

[sparksd]

No. No. Please no.

Documents is NOT a file manager. It might try to mimic one, but it's not. Every time it is mentioned as a file manager option, I re-download it to give it a try (thinking that perhaps it was updated since the last time I tried it). It still falls short.

Documents is just another iOS app that happens to offer the ability to manipulate files within it's own sandboxed storage area. It is NOT a universal file manager for iOS. That is a significant difference.

Documents is fine for "read-only" files but using it to manage files that will be modified by multiple applications is quite a convoluted flow.

If I have 2 apps that I need to use to edit a particular file and I have that file in Documents, I have to "save copy to..." or "send to..." app#1, make changes, send the file back to Documents, and within Documents send it to app#2, and then back to Documents.

That results in 3 copies of the file... in app#1's sandbox, app#2's sandbox, and Documents.

Don't disagree at all because the sandbox implementation within iOS will always limit file manager capability and functionality in 3rd party apps - but given the alternatives, is it currently the best option?

Edit - and for the particular post that I was answering, doesn't Documents address what he wants to do?

 

[sdz]

If I have 2 apps that I need to use to edit a particular file and I have that file in Documents, I have to "save copy to..." or "send to..." app#1, make changes, send the file back to Documents, and within Documents send it to app#2, and then back to Documents.

That results in 3 copies of the file... in app#1's sandbox, app#2's sandbox, and Documents.

Depends if you send the file to another app, or for example you have a Numbers spreadsheet stored in Documents, because you don't want this Apple iCloud to know everything...

Then you could go to Numbers, use the document picker "Locations" and open / edit and save back TO THE SILO of documents.

So in a way Documents "emulates" an users home folder.

But again, you cannot just say (just like in Finder for example) open numbers in Numbers App. It will copy the file first to the silo of numbers and then you will have a mess with duplicates.

 

[spac3duck]

It's a fundamental issue with iOS and app size. With app size constraints, there can't be one app with all functions with the 4gb app size limit on the iPad Pro, specially for any Video or Photo editing app. The purchasing of workflow alone shows Apple wants you to work in multiple apps on a project, rather than everything in one bloated program.

For this, there are three main issues with iPad as a professional video, or photo editing device, (what they market to with the pencil etc.):

1. App size limit.
2. iCloud Drive compatibility (most support Dropbox; even safari supports dropbox over iCloud drive due to APIs).
3. Ability of and saving a single file copy from iCloud Drive in any app.

It's plain inefficient, and not user friendly to have multiple copies of a file when it would save space, time and memory to open from iCloud Drive alone. If Apple opens iCloud drive to be able to do this, and gives developers access, then it would be the application author's issue to properly adapt it.

Yeah I see what you mean.

I guess multiple apps vs one bloated program could be akin to visiting the butcher, the bakery and the grocery for your weekly shopping compared to just visiting your local Supermarket. It's more convenient/efficient to go to one location instead of three and less struggle than moving your shopping (aka files) between the individual stores.

 

[kipwheeler]

No. No. Please no.
Documents is NOT a file manager. .

I'm giving Documents a run-through today, and so far, it's not really doing what I need it to do. (And it may just be that I'm using it wrong.)

Right now, I have several hundred PDFs (some of them huge) filling up on iPad. I don't have copies of them on my main computer, but I'm trying to move them back (or at least bulk move them off my iPad and onto something like Dropbox, so I can then move them from Dropbox to my desktop). I don't see any drop and drag ability--I have to click files to select them rather than simply running my finger down along them all, then dragging them all into a folder where I can drop them in iTune en masse for later extraction (or dropping them all en masse into Dropbox or Google-Drive--how do you do that?)

The only thing I can see to do is select each file and e-mail them to myself, one at a time or in small bundles for zip files. That's taking forever, and I've been at it six hours. What am I doing wrong here?

 

[sdz]

The only thing I can see to do is select each file and e-mail them to myself, one at a time or in small bundles for zip files. That's taking forever, and I've been at it six hours. What am I doing wrong here?

I don't know. I can select multiple files and then drag them to iTunes folder or to iCloud or to my FTP Server. It works.

 

[kipwheeler]

I don't know. I can select multiple files and then drag them to iTunes folder or to iCloud or to my FTP Server. It works.

I must be missing something really obvious.

Quick walkthrough. I have opened up thirty files in PDF format. They are in iBooks. I select all thirty of them from a particular "collection." My options are then "move" or "delete."

If I select "move, " i can move them into another collection, but I see no way to export them to where Documents 5 can see them, and no way to move them anywhere else but to another "collection."

If I try on the other end, opening up Documents 5 first, the documents folder is open, but empty. I can select "the Ipad" option from "On my iPad," and it does not show any of the PDF files that are stored on the local iPad for me to move them.

It simply says "No opened documents" and tells me I can "access, modifiy, and save files across your devices using Readdle Transfer Technology," but shows no way to get the pdf file open in Documents 5 when the file is stored in iBooks.

It looks to me, in fact, that I can drop and drag download *from* dropbox or google-drive *to* my iPad, but I'm trying to do the opposite.

 

[sdz]

I must be missing something really obvious.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I think you are right. And you are describing exactly the limitations of iOS architecture.

Your PDFs/eBooks in iBooks are in a silo. No way to move them freely around. Documents App will not help in that case.

 

[kipwheeler]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I think you are right. And you are describing exactly the limitations of iOS architecture.

Your PDFs/eBooks in iBooks are in a silo. No way to move them freely around. Documents App will not help in that case.

Argh. Okay, thanks.

 

[macduke]

I'm a web designer and developer. I'm always working with all kinds of files to make a website: JPG, PNG, SVG, PHP, CSS, SCSS, JS, .htaccess, HTML, XML, JSON, and more. It's hard to work on a project like that which has many files on an iPad. Also projects in Xcode often require a lot of resource files, so if they put Xcode on the iPad they're going to need something for those users. I think it should be something turned on my default on iPad Pro and maybe enabled via settings on regular iPad or iPhone. Even with a Finder the thing still isn't ideal for development, but it would be a lot easier to make fixes or other changes while out and about.

 

[alecgold]

I must be missing something really obvious.

Quick walkthrough. I have opened up thirty files in PDF format. They are in iBooks. I select all thirty of them from a particular "collection." My options are then "move" or "delete."

If I select "move, " i can move them into another collection, but I see no way to export them to where Documents 5 can see them, and no way to move them anywhere else but to another "collection."

If I try on the other end, opening up Documents 5 first, the documents folder is open, but empty. I can select "the Ipad" option from "On my iPad," and it does not show any of the PDF files that are stored on the local iPad for me to move them.

It simply says "No opened documents" and tells me I can "access, modifiy, and save files across your devices using Readdle Transfer Technology," but shows no way to get the pdf file open in Documents 5 when the file is stored in iBooks.

It looks to me, in fact, that I can drop and drag download *from* dropbox or google-drive *to* my iPad, but I'm trying to do the opposite.

iBooks sucks for this kind of work it's really hard to get anything out. iOS can do it, the iBooks app not
I've been able to get them out via iCloud sync in iBooks and on my mac via libraries.

 

[sparksd]

Argh. Okay, thanks.

Do you have the PDFs available on a Mac or PC that you can load them into Documents from? iBooks is a pain ...

 

[spac3duck]

I'm a web designer and developer. I'm always working with all kinds of files to make a website: JPG, PNG, SVG, PHP, CSS, SCSS, JS, .htaccess, HTML, XML, JSON, and more. It's hard to work on a project like that which has many files on an iPad. Also projects in Xcode often require a lot of resource files, so if they put Xcode on the iPad they're going to need something for those users. I think it should be something turned on my default on iPad Pro and maybe enabled via settings on regular iPad or iPhone. Even with a Finder the thing still isn't ideal for development, but it would be a lot easier to make fixes or other changes while out and about.

I've almost finished my CS degree and web dev looks to be fun. Can you smash out a website on your iPad or is it too much trouble with all the moving parts? (I've tried CodeAnywhere before but it was quite painful to use when I'm used to Sublime)

 

[alba63]

I am one of those who absolutely want to have a file system/ browser in the iPADs.

Simply put: Files are my files, I create, collect and keep them because they have some value for me (even if that may be temporarily only), therefore I prefer to keep, safe and transfer them myself on my desktop or an external HD.

I do NOT want a company to keep them for me on their servers by default or habit. I do NOT want to rely on an internet connection in order to access my personal files on an Apple server. It is an absurd idea for me. For me this is just another dependance (even if it is relatively safe), it creates a dependancy which is unnecessary. It is like the now quite common rental models for software that make us - one by one - dependant on a company. It is more reliable for them, but a loss of freedom/ independance for the user.

Not good!

 

[pika2000]

IMO it's not about the file system. Basically, people want a laptop, but forgot that Apple still sells laptop.

There are professionals out there having iPads on their workflow already. Instead of demanding a tool to do something it's not, get the proper tools (i.e. A laptop).
[doublepost=1495407119][/doublepost]

Doesn't work for me. I prefer logical grouping, not functional grouping. Just different ways of working and why I prefer a file system supporting it.

I have a Pro tip for you. It's old, but it's very phenomenal in this post-PC era. Even Apple don't want you to know it. They made a device that will offer you the versatile features you wanted. Are you ready? Keep this a secret though, it's called the MacBook. Yes, a laptop. It's an amazing device and let you have access to the file system. Don't let those Geniuses at Apple fooled you into buying he iPad. Ask them for the MacBook, and they will surprise you.

In short, get the proper tools for your need. iPads are fine, you just need a different tool.
[doublepost=1495407501][/doublepost]

I'm a web designer and developer. I'm always working with all kinds of files to make a website: JPG, PNG, SVG, PHP, CSS, SCSS, JS, .htaccess, HTML, XML, JSON, and more. It's hard to work on a project like that which has many files on an iPad. Also projects in Xcode often require a lot of resource files, so if they put Xcode on the iPad they're going to need something for those users. I think it should be something turned on my default on iPad Pro and maybe enabled via settings on regular iPad or iPhone. Even with a Finder the thing still isn't ideal for development, but it would be a lot easier to make fixes or other changes while out and about.

Then use a laptop. Seems easy problem for me.
I'm not sure why people so hung up about the "Pro" branding and expect one tool to be another.

For reference, just go back to Steve Jobs' car vs trucks analogy. Use the right tool for your needs.

 

[off_piste]

IMO it's not about the file system. Basically, people want a laptop, but forgot that Apple still sells laptop.

There are professionals out there having iPads on their workflow already. Instead of demanding a tool to do something it's not, get the proper tools (i.e. A laptop).
[doublepost=1495407119][/doublepost]
I have a Pro tip for you. It's old, but it's very phenomenal in this post-PC era. Even Apple don't want you to know it. They made a device that will offer you the versatile features you wanted. Are you ready? Keep this a secret though, it's called the MacBook. Yes, a laptop. It's an amazing device and let you have access to the file system. Don't let those Geniuses at Apple fooled you into buying he iPad. Ask them for the MacBook, and they will surprise you.

In short, get the proper tools for your need. iPads are fine, you just need a different tool.
[doublepost=1495407501][/doublepost]
Then use a laptop. Seems easy problem for me.
I'm not sure why people so hung up about the "Pro" branding and expect one tool to be another.

For reference, just go back to Steve Jobs' car vs trucks analogy. Use the right tool for your needs.

Sarcasm noted. I'd give it a solid 4/10.

It's not a problem of making a tablet something it's not, it's a problem of Apple being unwilling change something that's pretty basic.

For the life of me I don't get why people get upset when others want improvements to an Apple product. You'd think that after all the acquiescing Apple has done over the years (added features competitors had already implemented) this wouldn't devolve into the same tired debate.

 

[macduke]

I've almost finished my CS degree and web dev looks to be fun. Can you smash out a website on your iPad or is it too much trouble with all the moving parts? (I've tried CodeAnywhere before but it was quite painful to use when I'm used to Sublime)

I'm full stack so not quite. Maybe possible but painful and time consuming, especially for the graphic side of things. I make pretty big websites at work with a lot of parts and files to manage. If it's a simple portfolio site then I could do it without complaining too much as long as I can run a SCSS compiler on the server instead of having to use CodeKit, then Coda with a decent icon kit and premade logo SVGs should mostly get the job done. Oh, and a keyboard.
[doublepost=1495425313][/doublepost]

Then use a laptop. Seems easy problem for me.
I'm not sure why people so hung up about the "Pro" branding and expect one tool to be another.

For reference, just go back to Steve Jobs' car vs trucks analogy. Use the right tool for your needs.

Yeah, but that analogy only holds up for so many years until we think about what is next. The same argument could have been made about many devices over the years. "A laptop will never be powerful enough or have an input method better than a trackball or eraser head, just use a desktop!" Or "A phone will never have a browser as good as a laptop, just don't ever use internet on your phone!" Or "Many companies have tried and failed with tablets, the iPad will be no different." Or, to quote Bill Gates, "640K is enough for anyone." You lack vision if you think this is just the end of the road and we'll always be using laptops for work, iPads for fun, ad infinitum.

 

[Eric5273]

I must be missing something really obvious.

Quick walkthrough. I have opened up thirty files in PDF format. They are in iBooks. I select all thirty of them from a particular "collection." My options are then "move" or "delete."

If I select "move, " i can move them into another collection, but I see no way to export them to where Documents 5 can see them, and no way to move them anywhere else but to another "collection."

If I try on the other end, opening up Documents 5 first, the documents folder is open, but empty. I can select "the Ipad" option from "On my iPad," and it does not show any of the PDF files that are stored on the local iPad for me to move them.

It simply says "No opened documents" and tells me I can "access, modifiy, and save files across your devices using Readdle Transfer Technology," but shows no way to get the pdf file open in Documents 5 when the file is stored in iBooks.

It looks to me, in fact, that I can drop and drag download *from* dropbox or google-drive *to* my iPad, but I'm trying to do the opposite.

The problem is with the iBooks app and not with Documents. Apple did not design the iBooks app to export anything. Once you put something in there, it goes there to die.

Instead, if you had Documents to begin with, you would store your PDF files in a folder in Documents (instead of in iBooks), just like you would store them in a folder on your Mac. Then from Documents, you can open them in any app you want, and save them back to Documents, or you could move them from Documents to any cloud drive or FTP or even to a remote drive on the same wi-fi network. Documents really is a full featured file manager.

The only limitation of Documents I have found is that you cannot use it to open a file directly from a cloud service or FTP site. You must first move the file from the cloud drive to Documents, and then you can open it. Likewise, you cannot move files directly from one cloud drive to another. You must copy the files to Documents first, and then upload them to the second cloud drive. Although I'm pretty sure even a Mac or PC must do that when moving files between cloud services.

 

[whg]

Yeah, but that analogy only holds up for so many years until we think about what is next. The same argument could have been made about many devices over the years. "A laptop will never be powerful enough or have an input method better than a trackball or eraser head, just use a desktop!" Or "A phone will never have a browser as good as a laptop, just don't ever use internet on your phone!" Or "Many companies have tried and failed with tablets, the iPad will be no different." Or, to quote Bill Gates, "640K is enough for anyone." You lack vision if you think this is just the end of the road and we'll always be using laptops for work, iPads for fun, ad infinitum.

I read through most of this thread, and I remember all the agony I went through when I bought my iPad Pro 12.9 shortly after realease. It was very difficult to find pencil and smart keyboard for it. I tried almost everything that was suggested here to find out if it could replace my Macbook. I found work arounds for many scenarios, but at the end I gave up. My hope that iOS10 would improve matters was not coming true. I still keep the iPad because it is such a beautiful piece of technology, and I can still hope for iOS11?

When I went back to the Macbook (today I still have an Air 11 2013 and the Pro 15 2015), I really missed the touchscreen, and reading books and papers in portrait mode etc. So I tried a Surface 4 Pro to see if this would cover up both worlds (Macbook and iPad for my use case). This started a couple of months ago, and initially I had a hard time to get used to Windows 10. Today I can say that I'm very happy with the Surface 4 Pro. I have the full laptop experience, and I can use the device as a tablet for reading papers.

I'm still hanging around in Macrumors forums, but I will not buy new hardware from Apple if they don't move away from their current way of doing things. I'm as disappointed from the new Macbooks that lost all the useful connectors, as from the slow pace of iOS development.

Just one last comment about an other advantage of the Surface: I also have the dock, and with a Magsafe like connector I have power, external monitor, CD drive etc. connected. The only real drawback I see is the relatively short battery life.

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic reply to this thread, but I just had to point out that development continues outside the Apple universe.

 

[sdz]

iBooks sucks for this kind of work it's really hard to get anything out. iOS can do it, the iBooks app not
I've been able to get them out via iCloud sync in iBooks and on my mac via libraries.

If we had a "finder" app, we could go to iBooks App folder, and see files on a physical layer.
[doublepost=1495433228][/doublepost]

The only real drawback I see is the relatively short battery life.

Can you provide us some real life numbers?
Is it like 5hours ? or more like 8-10 ?

 

[alba63]

IMO it's not about the file system. Basically, people want a laptop, but forgot that Apple still sells laptop.

There are professionals out there having iPads on their workflow already. Instead of demanding a tool to do something it's not, get the proper tools (i.e. A laptop).

An iPAD that has a phone OS is limited. The big screen theoretically would offer lots of possibilities, but Apple limits it all. I don't know what a proper file system has to do with a laptop. I sometimes read how people try to navigate around the tiring limitations of iOS and the lack of simple things like connectivity with a USB stick or an SD card slot. The reason is that Apple wants to keep control over ALL the content by forcing people into their services and the cloud.

I definately do NOT want a laptop, I never liked their (cumbersome) form factor, I find tablets without keyboard and trackpad/ mouse very convenient, iOS is just a phone OS, for tablets it is too limited.

 

[sdz]

I definately do NOT want a laptop, I never liked their (cumbersome) form factor, I find tablets without keyboard and trackpad/ mouse very convenient, iOS is just a phone OS, for tablets it is too limited.

Android shows us how flexible a tablet OS can be. Windowed Apps, file system access, running torrent client in background mode... etc. etc. etc.

 

[spac3duck]

Android shows us how flexible a tablet OS can be. Windowed Apps, file system access, running torrent client in background mode... etc. etc. etc.

Torrenting client is an excellent reason to not allow users access to play around with their file systems! Not only would it enable easier access to piracy (ethics/morals etc aside), that level of control undermines the defence in depth that sandboxing provides.

Don't get me wrong, I want to better organisation of my files on the iPad as do the majority of other iPad users but I don't believe that everyone needs direct access into the iOS file system in order to achieve that.

 

[sdz]

Torrenting client is an excellent reason to not allow users access to play around with their file systems! Not only would it enable easier access to piracy (ethics/morals etc aside), that level of control undermines the defence in depth that sandboxing provides.

Don't get me wrong, I want to better organisation of my files on the iPad as do the majority of other iPad users but I don't believe that everyone needs direct access into the iOS file system in order to achieve that.

Wow! You would be a good fit in a fascistic Society .