What do you think about the new Mac Pro?

[deconstruct60]

I think going Thunderbolt would be much better justified if there were way cheaper PCIe-Thunderbolt adapters, though, since Thunderbolt is supposed to be PCIe in cable form.

First, Thunderbolt is not PCIe in cable form. There already is an "external PCIe" standard. Thunderbolt isn't that.

Second, one factor for PCIe external expansion boxes being expensive is that most folks don't need them. Not enough folks buy them so the cost is always going to be escalated a bit higher.

Thunderbolt means that the functionality of a PCIe card doesn't have to be packaged as a classic PCIe card. For example Blackmagic Intensity product http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity/models/
As a card in the form of the "Intensity Pro". As a TB box in the form of "Intensity Extreme". Same break out cabling. Same functionality. Marginally different connectivity one of which hooks up to the entire Mac Line up.

Some vendors aren't going to repackage their classic cards as a box, but those also aren't particularly likely to be the volume solutions that would drive problems/benefits for expansion chassis.

----------

One thing I wish is that they offer a cheaper model for the Mac Pro. Like a cheaper model, with older Xeons, ...

The older Xeons ( 3500/3600 and 5500/5600 series) are being discontinued this year. Apple doesn't have a Xeon E5 v1 product base, so older ( "before v2 " ) E5 isn't a ready made option either of selling "last year's E5".

Frankly, there are older models being offered. Visit the refurb pages if want to buy from Apple ( In USA, http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/mac_pro ) Hit the used Mac sites if not. It is already being done. Same situation is likely to still be in effect in late 2014 and early 2015 when "last year's" 2012 and 2013 Mac Pros will still up for sale.

 

[iSee]

Seems like many are unaware, but Apple has stated the new Mac Pro will support USB 3 as well as TB 2.

So it's not a USB vs. TB thing. You can have it either way (or some of each).

 

[phrehdd]

I used to have an early Mac Pro and later ended up with a Mac Mini.

This new computer is a great item - the Mac Mini Pro. I'll be happy to get it as it is just like my Mac Mini just on steroids. Most expansion is done from the outside, at least to date you are kind of stuck with whatever graphics is inside and you need to be savvy to upgrade/change out the drive. Just like the other Macs, we can move forward with either USB 3 (soon to be old standard 3) and get the ever expensive Thunderbolt options. Would be great if Apple was able to include the newer USB 3 (not even sure how it will be called) over the present USB 3 - that would be most excellent.

Honestly, I'll be considering this new Mac Mini Pro once there are more reviews out and of course the pricing is made public.

As for the present Mac Pro, it is a great machine for those who need it and it is sad it will be going away.

 

[fastlanephil]

Would be great if Apple was able to include the newer USB 3 (not even sure how it will be called) over the present USB 3 - that would be most excellent.

That would be USB 3.1 which won't be out until later 2014. By then maybe Intel will be announcing new, faster TB for the future.

 

[deconstruct60]

That would be USB 3.1 which won't be out until later 2014. By then maybe Intel will be announcing new, faster TB for the future.

Highly doubtful. Back in 2012 Intel let it be known they were targeting Thunderbolt v2 for 2014

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5405/the-first-thunderbolt-speed-bump-likely-in-2014

Thunderbolt showed up in 2011. So about a 3 year cadence. Frankly, Thunderbolt has bigger problems than TB v3. If the adoption rate and ease of implementation doesn't start improving there isn't pragmatically going to be a TB v3.

It is also unclear if any USB 3.1 products will show up in volume in 2014. USB 3.0 was announced in late 2008 and didn't really show up in volume till 2010. There is no reason to think the 3.1 adoption rate is going to be any faster. The "USB 3.0 is fast enough for most" issue is going to impact 3.1 almost as much as it does Thunderbolt. A huge fraction of USB devices haven't taken full advantage of USB 3.0 speeds/bandwidth. Finally, throw in the upcoming shift to more SATA express (i.e. PCI-e foundation) SSDs and USB 3.1 isn't holding lots of good cards. ( going from PCIe -> USB 3.1 -> PCIe doesn't make alot of sense if can just go PCIe --> Thunderbolt -> PCIe where the Thunderbolt layer is largely transparent to drivers/devices. )


Both USB committee and Intel's TB group need folks to solidy adopt the upcoming stuff 3.1 and TB v2 because start loud drumbeats that those are "old tech" and there is faster coming "real soon now". USB tends to go into a long protracted lull between major revisions. Pushing past 3.1 is likely going to require a major revision.

 

[rabidz7]

Just got a 2008 MP

 

[LongSticks]

Heh?

Highly doubtful. Back in 2012 Intel let it be known they were targeting Thunderbolt v2 for 2014

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5405/the-first-thunderbolt-speed-bump-likely-in-2014

Thunderbolt showed up in 2011. So about a 3 year cadence. Frankly, Thunderbolt has bigger problems than TB v3. If the adoption rate and ease of implementation doesn't start improving there isn't pragmatically going to be a TB v3.

It is also unclear if any USB 3.1 products will show up in volume in 2014. USB 3.0 was announced in late 2008 and didn't really show up in volume till 2010. There is no reason to think the 3.1 adoption rate is going to be any faster. The "USB 3.0 is fast enough for most" issue is going to impact 3.1 almost as much as it does Thunderbolt. A huge fraction of USB devices haven't taken full advantage of USB 3.0 speeds/bandwidth. Finally, throw in the upcoming shift to more SATA express (i.e. PCI-e foundation) SSDs and USB 3.1 isn't holding lots of good cards. ( going from PCIe -> USB 3.1 -> PCIe doesn't make alot of sense if can just go PCIe --> Thunderbolt -> PCIe where the Thunderbolt layer is largely transparent to drivers/devices. )


Both USB committee and Intel's TB group need folks to solidy adopt the upcoming stuff 3.1 and TB v2 because start loud drumbeats that those are "old tech" and there is faster coming "real soon now". USB tends to go into a long protracted lull between major revisions. Pushing past 3.1 is likely going to require a major revision.

That anandtech article is from Jan 2012? Do we really think it's still current?

We know that TB2 is coming on the Blackcan this year.....and there's every reason to believe that there will be a refresh on MBP and Macmini. What's the odds that TB2 is in there as well?

It would be nice to see if anyone has figures for USB 3. With people using laptops probably more than desktops now, portable storage is a first line of storage/backup. I bet that USB 3 is moving!? When TB2 opens the gap wider; and your date of late 2014 is correct for 3.1, that may be the impetus for TB2 as the speed gap will have widened considerably.

The next couple of months wil be interesting!

 

[deconstruct60]

That anandtech article is from Jan 2012? Do we really think it's still current?

Pragmatically yes. Intel has stated recently that while they are going to try to start shipments of Thunderbolt v2 controllers in 2013, they didn't expect to get to volume shipments until 2014.

From another recent anandtech article. http://www.anandtech.com/show/7049/intel-thunderbolt-2-everything-you-need-to-know. It is a relatively recent Intel slide, so presumably they actually know how they are going to ramp up production.

Could read that as Apple is going to suck up all of the early shipments in the last quarter of 2013 so there won't be enough to go around till 2014, but if many peripheral vendors can't get them..... what is the utility? If there are few TB v2 perhiperals to hook to then TB v1 Mac does just fine with TB v1 devices.

We know that TB2 is coming on the Blackcan this year.....and there's every reason to believe that there will be a refresh on MBP and Macmini. What's the odds that TB2 is in there as well?

Not so sure.... There was always a risk that Intel couldn't ship TB v2 in 2013 ( It was not the initial objective). It is one thing to "bet the farm" on a minor product. Take out the iMac and the MBP 13" out of Apple line up due to parts unavailability and is Apple's Mac product line is crushed. ( Look at the debacle of Fall 2012 on just dropping the iMac. )

The MBA 2013 doesn't have it. Apple could still get 4K output to many 4K monitors by just using the current Redwood Ridge TB controllers that enable DisplayPort 1.2. On a two port Mac one port would be stuck in DP 1.2 mode to support the 4K output, but likely lots of folks could live with that.

On the other hand, Apple is the biggest TB controller buyer so they could have arranged to just take every working controller till 2013 ends and Intel just worked that into their ramp plans.

It would be nice to see if anyone has figures for USB 3. With people using laptops probably more than desktops now, portable storage is a first line of storage/backup. I bet that USB 3 is moving!?

For single drives for backup and/or sneakernet data transfers USB 3 has cost effectiveness advantages over Thunderbolt in the vast majority of contexts. Yes it is moving quickly to take command of that space.

When TB2 opens the gap wider; and your date of late 2014 is correct for 3.1, that may be the impetus for TB2 as the speed gap will have widened considerably.

TB v2 is fast enough to deal with USB 3.1. + some other legacy ports (at least the discrete controllers available for the next couple of years). TB v2 just reshuffles the bandwidth that was there in TB v1. Both are going to require time ( and IMHO also optical to get affordable ) to push forward.

The next couple of months wil be interesting!

It isn't Apple ( or any system vendor looking for bragging rights ) usage of TBv2 to look out for. It is whether there is going to be any substantive number of peripheral vendors who jump on board with TBv2.

SonnetExpress is offering "free TBv2 " update.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echoexpressiii.html

but I suspect that is largely driven by fact they don't really expect to sell that many before 2014. Lots of perhiperal vendors are going to sit and wait for CES 2014 before announcing where they are going. [ Yet another reason Intel was targeting 2014. ]

 

[ActionableMango]

Phones before and after iPhone:

Tablets:

Notebooks before and after the MacBook Air:

Workstations before the new Mac Pro:

Workstations after the new Mac Pro:

At the risk of being on the wrong side of history here, I think the Mac Pro has no chance of redefining the workstation market. I think the other workstation manufacturers are going to keep on making computers loaded with PCIe and internal storage bays.

It's not that I have no vision; I instantly saw the value of the iPod, iPhone, iPad, and MacBook Air. Even if a couple of those things didn't suit me personally, I still saw the market moving toward those items. I'm just not seeing it with the new Mac Pro.

Maybe I'll eat crow in a couple of years and we'll see HP workstation tubes, but I don't think so.

 

[deconstruct60]

....
At the risk of being on the wrong side of history here, I think the Mac Pro has no chance of redefining the workstation market.

It isn't so much whether the segment is moving, it is whether the population is moving. The population that buys thing is the real market. That "spec sheet check off list" attempts to classify the market into a description but it isn't really the market in terms of gauging size.

The huge difference is that before/after iphone , iPad , MBA the number of people moving into that segment grew much larger. As your "before"/"after" for the workstation it isn't going to redefine because that isn't where people are going. It is far more where folks are going from; not to. So no, it isn't going to redefine it. That particular class of machines is calcifying. Apple can't change that.

Phones were going toward touch screens whether iPhone came or not ( iPhone might have pushed sooner rather than later if folks had followed "head in the sand" blackberry for a few more years than they did). Likewise Microsoft trying to pound round peg into square hole with 80-90's era Windows ideas.

I think the other workstation manufacturers are going to keep on making computers loaded with PCIe and internal storage bays.

Same path the "big iron" mainframe/mini computer vendors are still on.

It's not that I have no vision; I instantly saw the value of the iPod, iPhone, iPad, and MacBook Air. Even if a couple of those things didn't suit me personally, I still saw the market moving toward those items. I'm just not seeing it with the new Mac Pro.

The insightful question for the Mac Pro is "who was buying" Mac Pros. I think some folks think that tinkers and "fill all the PCIe slots" were the majority of buyers. That isn't so clearly broadly supported:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1614365/
[ go through list and cross off systems that have just 1-2 GPU+USB3.0+PCI SSD/eSATA. What fraction is left? ]


Over time built in functionality ( dual Ethernet , USB 3.0 , access to higher end external drive connects ) drives down the broad base need from custom cards.

iPhone , iPad are generally aimed at broad communities. In refocusing onto Mac Pro do you focus onto the narrow are possible group or still at broad perspective?

Maybe I'll eat crow in a couple of years and we'll see HP workstation tubes, but I don't think so.

Box workstations aren't going to disappear any more than big iron mainframes did. The latter are still around. Is HP going to do a tube that looks exactly like the Mac Pro? Probably not. Apple is still on their sue-everyone-in-sight scorched Earth strategy. If it new Mac Pro gets some traction will HP do another variant in their line up that drops more slots... probably. iMac -> Z1. Boxx ... this ( been out for couple of years )

http://www.boxxtech.com/Products/renderpro

and don't cripple the graphics capabilities.

 

[bearcatrp]

I expect apple to drop the pro line IF this does not sell well. Time will tell. Any prices on this yet? Miss my older mac pro's but moved on to building my own dual xeon work stations to suit my needs. Now if I could afford the new 10 or 12 cores, would be in heaven.

 

[phrehdd]

That would be USB 3.1 which won't be out until later 2014. By then maybe Intel will be announcing new, faster TB for the future.

Given Apples 'boatload' of cash one would think they would be clever enough to sell external enclosures and the like for these faster connections (TB for now and USB 3.x for later) at cost to get them out there. We saw how firewire didn't get the praise it deserved and ended up playing second to USB2 which is slower for the most part.

When Apple released TB, they should have immediately provided Apple branded moderate cost devices to connect or provide "assistance" to some 3rd party known makers of such items.

Just peanuts from the gallery.

 

[ActionableMango]

Same path the "big iron" mainframe/mini computer vendors are still on.

Yeah I agree with most of what you are saying.

In my opinion Apple has left the "big iron" workstation market, just as they left the rackmount server market when they dropped the XServe. The difference is that in dropping the Mac Pro, which many people speculated they would do, they also came out with a very powerful headless Mac and slapped the Mac Pro label on it.

Because it's a different market, I'm confident the others won't follow like they did with Ultrabooks, All-in-Ones, and iDevices. Workstations will continue to be big rectangles with big space in them.

Not that any of this is the wrong move for Apple. They've ignored the masses clamoring for the "mini-tower xMac" and gone on to be the most profitable PC maker in the world.

 

[kazmac]

agreed

The only thing disappointing about the Mac Mini is that they use Intel HD 4000 graphics. I wish we could configure the graphic card to a better GT or something. One thing I wish is that they offer a cheaper model for the Mac Pro. Like a cheaper model, with older Xeons, older 2xGPUs, 256GB SSD and 8GB RAM for like 1899$, and everything completely new for 2499$ and 2 processors for 3499$.

Agreed on all counts.

If they offered a cheaper nMP, I'd definitely jump. I know I'm not the intended market, but I'd like a computer that will last more than four years (sadly, I know Apple no longer sees it this way.)

I agree about the mini, the graphics are the only reason I haven't jumped.

----------

@kazmac

A Mac Pro is a Pro-Mac
A Mac Mini is a Mini-Mac

I am so confused on this forum when people compared mac-mini to a mac pro. You are comparing a grape to an apple.

Hi Kennyman,

I know exactly what both machines are and the intended market for both machines. I did not compare the Pro to the Mini, I said my needs are most likely better suited for the Mini (which I've been told of in this very forum), even though I'd prefer a nMP. I would prefer better specs than my iMac than settle for a graphics card which is not enough for what I do.

If that is confusion, it is all good.

 

[scottsjack]

At the risk of being on the wrong side of history here, I think the Mac Pro has no chance of redefining the workstation market. I think the other workstation manufacturers are going to keep on making computers loaded with PCIe and internal storage bays.

I think you are correct. Mac Pros are not about coolness, or making a fashion statement. Sure there are plenty of users who think they are cool. I am one of them but really a Mac Pro is a serious tool. It is about doing a job. It is hard to beat a computer like a cheese-grater Mac Pro or an HP Z tower if you really have a job to get done.

 

[Erasmus]

I think it still comes down to cost. If Apple can release a powerful Mac Pro for reasonably cheap, it's possible that it could progress above being just a niche product. Basically becoming the next step up from the Mac Mini and iMac.

On the cost side, it does have some things going seriously against it. For one, the CPUs it will probably use are very expensive. Maybe the base models will come with less expensive, but still powerful versions of quad/hex CPUs, but it seems unlikely. Also, even more worryingly, the change from standard PCI to Apple's new GPU connector thingy will likely completely kill off the hope of having the latest and greatest GPUs in the Mac Pro. Hopefully either Apple, or other companies will quickly be able to create new GPU generation cards in the new layout. Otherwise, it's going to be hard to stomach shelling out top dollar for graphics cards that are already superseded on release.

There has always been a gaping hole between the iMac and the Mac Pro. This new Mac Pro could in theory narrow the gap, but on the other hand, could well widen it into a chasm as well. It would be nice to be able to finally buy an Apple product that used top-tier desktop components, but without top-tier workstation exorbitant prices. Not holding my breath though.

 

[VirtualRain]

Yeah I agree with most of what you are saying.

In my opinion Apple has left the "big iron" workstation market, just as they left the rackmount server market when they dropped the XServe. The difference is that in dropping the Mac Pro, which many people speculated they would do, they also came out with a very powerful headless Mac and slapped the Mac Pro label on it.

Because it's a different market, I'm confident the others won't follow like they did with Ultrabooks, All-in-Ones, and iDevices. Workstations will continue to be big rectangles with big space in them.

Not that any of this is the wrong move for Apple. They've ignored the masses clamoring for the "mini-tower xMac" and gone on to be the most profitable PC maker in the world.

I agree, it's more apt to say they've left the workstation market rather than redefine it. But if you google "PC market decline" you'll see story after story talking about double-digit declines in growth. That will have an impact on the workstation market eventually, from reduced choices (in systems and PCIe cards), to increasing costs. While I agree, that I don't see workstation vendors radically changing course, I do see a continued trend of professionals dumping "big iron" in favor of very well equipped laptops and the workstation market becoming incredibly niche (even more so than it is today). So Apple exiting that market in favor of a powerful headless solution that can share peripherals with the mobile market makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[theluggage]

I think the Mac Pro has no chance of redefining the workstation market. I think the other workstation manufacturers are going to keep on making computers loaded with PCIe and internal storage bays.

The design of those big black boxes was determined by 20th Century technology: ISA/PCI, Parallel ATA, Parallel SCSI, motherboards with no sound or networking and a motley assortment of Centronics, RS232 and PS/2 connectors.

The only thing keeping the big-box designs relevant is the lack of a standard way of attaching high-speed external expansion that doesn't need an 8-way cable as thick as your finger. Now we have 3 candidates for that - Thunderbolt, USB 3.1 and Oculink (The 'official' PCIe external proposal).

Having a small, compact CPU unit with a fast SSD system disk, networking and various forms of fast expansion, with all your "specialist" stuff attached externally makes a lot of sense. Why would you not want your data discs, video/audio digitisers etc. accessible on your desk? With specialist video/audio equipment, there's an argument for having the noise-sensitive bits in an external box (and your PCIe kit may already use an external break-out box) and now you can just grab it & plug it into your laptop for field use. With storage - you get to chose between cheap USB3 JBOD enclosures and fancy RAID/SSD options depending on your needs. The enclosures are often hot-swap, so you can junk some of those individual USB3/Firewire drives you're using for sneakernet or archiving.


And if you do want everything all-in-one, designing a rack with cable management and shared power supplies isn't rocket science - I'm sure many will appear. The one welcome innovation is if manufacturers could agree on a standard power connection for non-bus-powered devices, so you didn't need a dozen wall-warts.

 

[flat five]

The new Mac pro is stupid.. If I ever needed I super high end pro video editing machine I would just make one. Thunderbolt is not the future watever is the cheapest is the future.

sounds like you're missing out on a lucrative business opportunity..
seems like you're capable of making the cheapest super high end pro video editing machines?#

 

[liquid stereo]

Xserve departure was hard

To me, this new MacPro is a non-issue. I'm not saying that is true for others however.

The Xserve was a big blow. I had a lot of hardware/infrastructure for that stuff.

Yeah I agree with most of what you are saying.

In my opinion Apple has left the "big iron" workstation market, just as they left the rackmount server market when they dropped the XServe. The difference is that in dropping the Mac Pro, which many people speculated they would do, they also came out with a very powerful headless Mac and slapped the Mac Pro label on it.

Because it's a different market, I'm confident the others won't follow like they did with Ultrabooks, All-in-Ones, and iDevices. Workstations will continue to be big rectangles with big space in them.

Not that any of this is the wrong move for Apple. They've ignored the masses clamoring for the "mini-tower xMac" and gone on to be the most profitable PC maker in the world.

----------

This is the part that I don't think most are aware of. (Either that or they're being deliberately misleading.)

The "workstation" market is small and decreasing.

I agree, it's more apt to say they've left the workstation market rather than redefine it. But if you google "PC market decline" you'll see story after story talking about double-digit declines in growth. That will have an impact on the workstation market eventually, from reduced choices (in systems and PCIe cards), to increasing costs. While I agree, that I don't see workstation vendors radically changing course, I do see a continued trend of professionals dumping "big iron" in favor of very well equipped laptops and the workstation market becoming incredibly niche (even more so than it is today). So Apple exiting that market in favor of a powerful headless solution that can share peripherals with the mobile market makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[deconstruct60]

The difference is that in dropping the Mac Pro, which many people speculated they would do, they also came out with a very powerful headless Mac and slapped the Mac Pro label on it.

Yeah it is a Mac Pro aimed at a different market. So reusing the name is a bit new for Apple.

Because it's a different market, I'm confident the others won't follow like they did with Ultrabooks, All-in-Ones, and iDevices. Workstations will continue to be big rectangles with big space in them.

Long term same down physical sizing forces on workstations also. For one-man-band stuff sure one-box-one-person is highly aligned. But in group settings the trend line is on more shared storage. All the more so hypergrowth media storage business. Apple is going is a bit dependent upon far more affordable 10+ Gb/s NAS/SAN storage rolling out for the track they are on to work well. It is coming slower than expected but it still coming. Driven by same Moore''s law forces cranking up core count in CPU and GPUs.

Apple is a bit early with the directions the Mac Pro has gone but they aren't off the longer term trend lines.

Not that any of this is the wrong move for Apple. They've ignored the masses clamoring for the "mini-tower xMac" and gone on to be the most profitable PC maker in the world.

We'll see. Some of Apple's growth has come from just shifting market share away from stumbling (or outright failing) PC vendors. But yes they have stayed away from the "just sell me commodity parts" business. There isn't much future in that for any system vendor. (e.g., Facebook , Google, etc wihip up their own commodity part servers. Likewise the "Other" category seems to have slightly less worse growth problems that the big 4. )

 

[kappaknight]

But they don't realise pros want to have a big box, never moved, with a bunch of internal drives (especially with video editing), sound card and a graphic cards. Apple has done the entire reverse. "The back I/O lights up when you spin the new Mac Pro". WHO CARES? Many people buy the Mac Pro just for the sake of upgrading it!

Honestly, I don't want the big box. The only time I ever mess with the big box after all the initial upgrades are done, is to replace the broken hard drive. In this case, I would much rather have an external, RAIDed storage device where I can just hot swap the bad drives for the good ones in under a minute and move on.

Opening the case, unscrewing the drawers, the drives, and do everything in reverse is the old school way of thinking. Yeah, large towers are impressive but small ones can be too.

 

[RoastingPig]

sounds like you're missing out on a lucrative business opportunity..
seems like you're capable of making the cheapest super high end pro video editing machines?#

You know what i mean

 

[deconstruct60]

....
The "workstation" market is small and decreasing.

Small yes, decreasing not so much

http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases...eling-the-same-pain-as-the-broader-pc-market/
[ the quarters are fluctuating but 12-15 month trends are approximately flat. ]

More accurately the workstation market is much closer to stagnant than decline. Effectively, it has already gotten to the mature state. The declines of the overall legacy PC form factor market is two major factors.

a. growth coming off those form factors market due to hitting saturation levels. ( those who need one, have one: trend toward PC+ phone/tablet as opposed to PC + cheaper PC. ).
b. lengthening product ownership cycles. (Squatting on "fast enough" PC )

both of those have already hit the workstation market years ago. The only big legacy PC vendor is Lenovo which is largely leveraging selling to those didn't have one previously in China. At some point that runway' will run out.

 

[garirry]

This thread is going to be long.