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I think I like it, I'm just waiting to see if I like the pricing of a 12 core yet.

I don't want a huge gaudy case to put somewhere, I have nowhere to put one, I went away from those 5 yrs ago and I'm not going back.

I'm looking around the $3k price range, maybe $4k if the 12core is right there. If not then it looks like I'll be grabbing the new iMac maxed w/ a 29" Ultrawide IPS monitor.
 
I think I like it, I'm just waiting to see if I like the pricing of a 12 core yet.

I don't want a huge gaudy case to put somewhere, I have nowhere to put one, I went away from those 5 yrs ago and I'm not going back.

I'm looking around the $3k price range, maybe $4k if the 12core is right there. If not then it looks like I'll be grabbing the new iMac maxed w/ a 29" Ultrawide IPS monitor.

I don't think you're going to see anything close to that price point for a 12 core model. The CPU alone is almost $3k.
 
What if they would manage to use the (as some people say) now superseded graphics cores to the advantage of background processes for use with FCPX, and some API interfaces for 3rd party programs of Maverick etc.? Sure, MPs maybe won't be the fastest gaming machines but that's not intended target market anyway, is it? IMO all that graphics power, if I can't use it other then for some gaming fps is pretty useless to me as I don't play games. Then the graphics superseded or not pretty much makes no difference because through the integration the MP would be faster then anything else for the next several years new or old graphics who cares.
 
After 5C I have next to no belief the new Mac Pro will be less than $3000 for base model. Will remain cool but crazy expensive.
 
I want a 10-core, but I'm curious to see the comparison between the maxed out imac ($3500 - i7, 780, 32 gb, ssd) vs. The base nMP. I'm sure it will cost $5K plus, buts its also 20 threads vs 8 in the imac, and a lot more graphics hp, more thru-put, and TB2.. i think which was purposefully omitted from the imac.
 
I want a 10-core, but I'm curious to see the comparison between the maxed out imac ($3500 - i7, 780, 32 gb, ssd) vs. The base nMP. I'm sure it will cost $5K plus, buts its also 20 threads vs 8 in the imac, and a lot more graphics hp, more thru-put, and TB2.. i think which was purposefully omitted from the imac.

It would be silly to pay Apple's upgrade prices for RAM when you can upgrade it yourself, but yes, this will be a comparison that I'll be thinking about as well when the new Mac Pro finally comes out. I am disappointed by the lack of TB2 in the new iMac and the fact that it comes with a screen has always left me cold.
 
Apple claims that it's going to be the most expandable Mac because of it's thunderbolt ports. Well, I did some research and I found some PCIe and SATA enclosures over thunderbolt, BUT THEY ARE EXPENSIVE. Why 4TB Raid over Thunderbolt costs 1000$ but over standard USB it costs 400$? The problem is that if Thunderbolt accessories are too expensive, the new Mac Pro will drop the "Pro" in his name. With the previous Mac Pro (and with the other PowerMac G3 G4 G5), you could just insert a PCi card or a Hard Drive. What do you think about the idea of having everything external and what do you think about the new Mac Pro?

The iMac has pretty much the same upgradability as the MP.
I think they really forgot what professionals want as computers.

They're great, and appeal to me much more than the current MPs. Primarily because I have no interest in giant hard drive setups, but I have a lot of interest in a much heftier CPU, GPU, and scratch disk compared to what my MBPr has. I don't need the storage capacity, just the grunt. It's a lot more flexible for all the different computing requirements of professionals.

Also, I don't think we're talking about an octopus setup here... one RAID box via thunderbolt and you're pretty much at where the old MP was, except for maybe an optical drive. But seriously... an optical drive? What for?
 
I agree, it's more apt to say they've left the workstation market rather than redefine it. But if you google "PC market decline" you'll see story after story talking about double-digit declines in growth. That will have an impact on the workstation market eventually, from reduced choices (in systems and PCIe cards), to increasing costs. While I agree, that I don't see workstation vendors radically changing course, I do see a continued trend of professionals dumping "big iron" in favor of very well equipped laptops and the workstation market becoming incredibly niche (even more so than it is today). So Apple exiting that market in favor of a powerful headless solution that can share peripherals with the mobile market makes a lot of sense to me.

I can definitely see that all coming true. As computing technology becomes more and more powerful per watt, it stands to reason that a laptop will satisfy the "good enough" criteria for more and more people.

Back in the day, if you had a laptop at all, you still had to have a desktop because the laptop was slow, had no HD capacity, and the screen was crap. It was so great at the end of the day moving from a 800x600 LCD screen to a 19" CRT running 1024x768.

Now Laptops not only have all the speed and space you need for 99% of consumer tasks and a good portion of pro tasks, while at the same time being reasonably priced. I believe that's what's being reflected in the sales figures. I have a 5 year old white Macbook (with an SSD) that powers through web browsing, video, email, programming, photo editing, etc. to the point where I just don't have any reason to upgrade--I would see literally no speed advantage for those tasks, and the resolution is good enough.

When (and I'm using when here) a small form-factor can have 24 cores, thunderbolt (or something like it) at 16GBps, and 10TB of storage running at 3000MBps... That's going to take care of many more professional needs. Some workflows will likely be created to take advantage of future technologies and therefore big irons will still exist, but the "workstation" world will start to dwindle, nonetheless.

What Apple has released here, however, is only a modest speed bump to a 4 year old dinosaur and packaged it in a way that doesn't allow for improvement.

My question is not if it will happen, but if that time is now. Is Apple just ahead of the game like they were with the Newton? Is the technology there yet? Will this be another Newton?
 
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Will this be another Newton?

no.. it's a completely different situation (imo).. the newton was an entirely new concept (for the most part).. everything the new mac has in it as well as the scenarios in which it's users will use it are completely tried and tested and it will be used more/less in the exact same way desktops have been used for the past 30 years..
the only thing different is they've taken out multiple hd storage bays.. no radical change has actually happened here
 
Hmmm... You seemed so rational until you got to this point...

What Apple has released here, however, is only a modest speed bump to a 4 year old dinosaur and packaged it in a way that doesn't allow for improvement.

That's an extremely pessimistic summary, especially given you seem to agree the traditional PC form factor is in decline (along with the PCIe cards that go into them), mobile computing is the future, and this new Mac Pro can share peripherals with that vastly bigger (and growing) mobile market.

My question is not if it will happen, but if that time is now. Is Apple just ahead of the game like they were with the Newton? Is the technology there yet? Will this be another Newton?

I don't think they're ahead of the game... As I said above they're changing direction and I don't expect anyone to follow. I believe success or failure really comes down to price. If they are reasonable with pricing, I believe this will be far more successful than any previous Mac Pro and for every buyer they lose as a result of the new form factor, they will gain two or three new ones who want a compact headless powerhouse. However, if they price this in the stratosphere, it could very well be the last we see of a workstation class system from Apple as it will not draw new buyers or old.
 
I don't think they're ahead of the game... As I said above they're changing direction and I don't expect anyone to follow. I believe success or failure really comes down to price. If they are reasonable with pricing, I believe this will be far more successful than any previous Mac Pro and for every buyer they lose as a result of the new form factor, they will gain two or three new ones who want a compact headless powerhouse. However, if they price this in the stratosphere, it could very well be the last we see of a workstation class system from Apple as it will not draw new buyers or old.

Nailed it....fingers crossed on $$$
 
My Thoughts about the coming new Mac Pro

From the little we (all) know, the new Mac Pro appears to be not just another superfast computer but a revolution in the Art of Computing.
 
That's an extremely pessimistic summary, especially given you seem to agree the traditional PC form factor is in decline (along with the PCIe cards that go into them), mobile computing is the future, and this new Mac Pro can share peripherals with that vastly bigger (and growing) mobile market.

I agree that it's in decline, but I'm not sure the Pro market is ready to give up PCIe. What do we use PCIe for? Storage, connectivity, graphics. If the nMP had a ridiculous amount of internal storage and GPU capability, that would be one thing. It is, however, virtually guaranteed that bulky external storage is going to be necessary for almost everybody, and anyone who would benefit from more than dual 7970 is out in the cold. There are definitely a significant portion of the population who would like more than 2 year old graphics technology. Is it more than those with whom the nMP fits the "good enough" criteria? I don't know.

Eventually, a small form-factor like this will be able to have the kind of power where, regardless of other options, it still has a lot of appeal. I do not think we're there yet.

This is all an arbitrary line and we will see where that line actually lies depending on the sales numbers (unless Apple kills the product with a ridiculous price). I do not think we are there yet--the tech is simply not there, desires for more features and speed go beyond or soon will go beyond what the nMP has to offer.

I think there is or shortly will be a bigger market for 3000MBps SSD drives, the latest GPU technologies, etc. SSD SATA drives dropped something like 60% in price over the course of 1 year (2010, I believe). What happens if PCIe SSDs do the same thing?

One amazing thing about humanity is the capacity for demand. People found a way to utilize more than 512k, drive faster than 25miles per hour, give everyone their own telephone number, etc. The move toward smaller, more portable devices is the compromise of expandability for portability and convenience--but it could only be possible because the marginal utility of expandability has been reduced by how many features and how much power is able to be included in the machine, while at the same time portability is enhanced via smaller size and longer battery life. When people are buying laptops, they are choosing to trade the expandability, affordability, and speed of a desktop, not give it away for nothing. I'm sure if Laptop users could have twice the speed, upgradability, and capacity for a small dollar cost, they would go for it, no matter what kind of laptop they actually own currently. There are few out there would pass up a product that's 20% better for 1% higher cost (This is 'merica, Gosh Darn it!).

Conversely, the nMP is not a laptop and is not portable. It has none of the advantages of a laptop, but it does have many of the disadvantages of one. You're using the wonderful example of the market moving towards laptops and then making a false-comparison to the nMP. How much value will users place on the portability of a system they may never actually move Vs the value they placed on power and upgradability? This is not a desktop Vs laptop argument, this is a conventual desktop Vs slightly-smaller-but-equally-non-portable desktop argument. While I'm sure everyone would love to have all the capabilities of their massive "big iron" crammed into a small box for only a small upfront cost, the utility of the small form-factor is clearly much less for these users than for laptop users, since they have already decided not to go the portable route.

I don't think they're ahead of the game... As I said above they're changing direction and I don't expect anyone to follow. I believe success or failure really comes down to price. If they are reasonable with pricing, I believe this will be far more successful than any previous Mac Pro and for every buyer they lose as a result of the new form factor, they will gain two or three new ones who want a compact headless powerhouse. However, if they price this in the stratosphere, it could very well be the last we see of a workstation class system from Apple as it will not draw new buyers or old.

If Apple is pricing everyone else out of the market, I expect very good results. The 2006 Mac Pro was cheaper than the competition. Heck, if they could put the thing at $1,500, and they managed to create Crossfire over OS X, this could even push into the gaming market. This could be situation where the price is so low, the machine is considered disposable and therefore upgrading is not a huge deal. We agree on this. I am just as in the dark as you are about their pricing, obviously, so I guess we'll just see. I will however point out that PC computer component manufacturers are at razor-thin margins, are extremely competitive, and are probably maxed out on the economy of scale and market efficiency (using todays technology, anyway). It is unlikely that Apple will be able to beat this highly mature and rapidly evolving portion of the economy simply by virtue of being Apple. Has it happened before? Sure, but that was a long time ago.
 
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I agree that it's in decline, but I'm not sure the Pro market is ready to give up PCIe. What do we use PCIe for? Storage, connectivity, graphics. If the nMP had a ridiculous amount of internal storage and GPU capability, that would be one thing. It is, however, virtually guaranteed that bulky external storage is going to be necessary for almost everybody, and anyone who would benefit from more than dual 7970 is out in the cold. There are definitely a significant portion of the population who would like more than 2 year old graphics technology. Is it more than those with whom the nMP fits the "good enough" criteria? I don't know.

I agree bulky HD storage is still required, but I think many homes and offices have moved to network storage already. Many homes (like mine) are multi-user and multi-computer environments where the most convenient and economical storage is a NAS. Offices, even more so where collaboration is critical and not even NAS is convenient but cloud (we use Box at work for storage with network backups).

I think the only issue with this new Mac Pro is the lack of GPU upgradability. If you're a gamer or other user who often upgrades the GPU before the rest of your system, this new form factor creates compromise... You either need to upgrade the entire system more frequently or make do with your initial GPUs longer than you might like.

However, for many pro users, and especially those where the company is buying the machine, mid-life upgrades are not so common and this new machine doesn't create that compromise. At work we're generally on a 3-year depreciation schedule and replace our machines that frequently. All of our creative professionals have no issue at all with that cycle (and all of them are on MBP or iMac machines). (I still have a GT120 in my Mac Pro and would get little benefit from upgrading thanks to Apertures lack of GPU support).

Eventually, a small form-factor like this will be able to have the kind of power where, regardless of other options, it still has a lot of appeal. I do not think we're there yet.

Fair enough. I think this new Mac Pro will come equipped with enough CPU and GPU to satisfy nearly any need. As we agree though, price is key.

I think there is or shortly will be a bigger market for 3000MBps SSD drives, the latest GPU technologies, etc. SSD SATA drives dropped something like 60% in price over the course of 1 year (2010, I believe). What happens if PCIe SSDs do the same thing?

As a tech geek this will be the most challenging part of this new machine for me to ignore. I will miss the ability to upgrade my primary storage to the latest and greatest, but I'm not sure this is a big issue for a lot of pros.

My hope is that like most Apple products, the resale value of these holds up reasonably well so I can flip it every two years to stay on the bleeding edge more often.

Conversely, the nMP is not a laptop and is not portable. It has none of the advantages of a laptop, but it does have many of the disadvantages of one. You're using the wonderful example of the market moving towards laptops and then making a false-comparison to the nMP. How much value will users place on the portability of a system they may never actually move Vs the value they placed on power and upgradability? This is not a desktop Vs laptop argument, this is a conventual desktop Vs slightly-smaller-but-equally-non-portable desktop argument. While I'm sure everyone would love to have all the capabilities of their massive "big iron" crammed into a small box for only a small upfront cost, the utility of the small form-factor is clearly much less for these users than for laptop users, since they have already decided not to go the portable route.

Yeah, my point was that the advantage this machine has in common with mobile solutions is TB which allows it to share in that peripheral market... I know I sound a lot like a broken record on this topic, but I think TB offers Mac Pro buyers a brighter future for peripherals than PCIe cards ever did or ever will.

If Apple is pricing everyone else out of the market, I expect very good results. The 2006 Mac Pro was cheaper than the competition. Heck, if they could put the thing at $1,500, and they managed to create Crossfire over OS X, this could even push into the gaming market. This could be situation where the price is so low, the machine is considered disposable and therefore upgrading is not a huge deal. We agree on this. I am just as in the dark as you are about their pricing, obviously, so I guess we'll just see. I will however point out that PC computer component manufacturers are at razor-thin margins, are extremely competitive, and are probably maxed out on the economy of scale and market efficiency (using todays technology, anyway). It is unlikely that Apple will be able to beat this highly mature and rapidly evolving portion of the economy simply by virtue of being Apple. Has it happened before? Sure, but that was a long time ago.

Agreed. Fingers crossed they don't get greedy here. But deep down I ought to know better than to hope for aggressively competitive pricing :(
 
There are definitely a significant portion of the population who would like more than 2 year old graphics technology.
The card inside the nmp are not 7970, they are likely W9000 and they are just one year old.
Unless your specific workflow needs cuda, those cards will cover every other job very well for many years.
 
I don't care for it at all. I like multiple processors, room for multiple GPUs and lots of internal disks.
 
The card inside the nmp are not 7970, they are likely W9000 and they are just one year old.
Unless your specific workflow needs cuda, those cards will cover every other job very well for many years.

The only difference between the two are drivers and ECC memory on the W9000. They essentially the exact same card, and the tech is still rather old.

AMD are also launching their new Volcanic Isles card shortly, with the NDA apparently lifting next week. The consumer cards should give a give indication of what their new FirePro line will bring as well.
 
A different driver can make a big difference for pro user.

Yes, but it can also easily be applied to a flashed or modded card. People have been "unlocking" consumer cards for years.

I also doubt Apple will be slapping in 2 full blooded W9000 in the nMP, considering they're near the 3000 mark in currency. MacVidCards, also happened on his ERI rom flashed 7970 showing up as a FirePro card in OS 10.9 Mavericks.

None of it also changes the fact that if Apple uses the current gen, they'll be severely outdated by the time the nMP even ships, which would certainly be a pity. If I was going to buy a workstation, I'd at least want the option to either upgrade, or not have state of the art workstation that's already behind the competition.

It could shift more people to the competition, or and many have started doing; build a hackintosh. Thereby getting the best performance available, expandability, and OS X.
 
Opening the case, unscrewing the drawers, the drives, and do everything in reverse is the old school way of thinking. Yeah, large towers are impressive but small ones can be too. :cool:
Yeah, That 90 seconds it takes to slap in another 4TB of storage is such a burden.
 
Yeah, That 90 seconds it takes to slap in another 4TB of storage is such a burden.

It's not really 90 seconds, more like 5 minutes. Anyway, if you prefer the old way, that's all you. With everything inside, you're still limited to about 4 drives.

Personally I prefer to be able to hot swap my NAS drives while leaving everything on. With Synology, you can now build 24 or 36 drive volumes. I'd take that RAIDed solution over internal drives any day.
 
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