Yeah, that one is embarrassingly bad. Even worse than the inconsistency is the unintuitive behavior.
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MP All Models What is stopping you from using Windows?
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Yeah, that one is embarrassingly bad. Even worse than the inconsistency is the unintuitive behavior.
I think that was a power user shortcut that somehow became the usual way of operation. Special, Eject Disk or Special, Erase Disk was the consistent way to deal with that operation.
The "inconsistency" with the CLI is not a power user "issue"? Regardless Aiden didn't refer to the Special menu. She referred to dragging and dropping which, as described, is inconsistent.
Again, you misunderstand what I'm saying. You aren't supposed to drag the disk into the trash normally. You're supposed to use the menu. Dragging into the trash was a power user shortcut.
Why does macOS have two separate clipboards where one is used when you hit Cmd-X and Cmd-V, and one is used for Control-K, Control-Y? Why does Control-K cut from the cursor position to the end of the line, but not Cmd-X? Why does Control-B do the same thing as left arrow?
Power user shortcuts. If you tried to explain this to people, you'd say how stupid it is. If you're a power user and know where it comes from, it's completely natural.
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I am doing no such thing. Power user or not it's inconsistent behavior. My "power user" behavior (i.e. using the CLI) was rejected. By that metric all special circumstances have to be rejected. If you disagree then you need to take it up with Nugget as he set the bar.
Nope. It's two different things. Power user shortcuts can often violate human interface guidelines because they present a completely optional way of doing things. The primary path (trash for files, special menu for disks) is logical and compliant.
The primary way of navigating macOS text is with the arrow keys. Control-f -b -p -n is redundant and completely optional. Nobody screams inconsistent because they work.
If there's only one path to do things, i.e. the only way to stop a CLI program, then the expectation is that it fits within primary human interface guidelines.
There's definitely a difference between an avoidable inconsistency and one which is unavoidable (and thereby impacts usage). Moreover, I took Aiden's comment to be a humorous reminder of how even macOS usability can be opaque and arcane at times. But beyond that, anyone who is seriously re-litigating OS9 floppy disk behavior is just "rehashing [issues] from the 1990's [which] makes them look foolish."
I actually switched my music production machine to Windows 10 a couple of months ago.
For $1500 I built a Ryzen PC which is as powerful as the base iMac Pro model, and from the early benchmarks seems to be more powerful than the base 2019 Mac Pro model.
Windows is not as refined UI-wise but for workstation use I don't care. I just boot Windows and open my DAW. It's rock solid and I've had zero issues. Windows 10 has fixed those issues with updates in the middle of something. That just doesn't happen anymore.
Would I prefer to have a tower with macOS? Certainly, but 1) Apple doesn't sell a similar machine in a similar price range and 2) saving about $4000 helps me cope with Windows not being as pretty. And I gotta admit, Windows is growing on me.
For $1500 I built a Ryzen PC which is as powerful as the base iMac Pro model, and from the early benchmarks seems to be more powerful than the base 2019 Mac Pro model.
Windows is not as refined UI-wise but for workstation use I don't care. I just boot Windows and open my DAW. It's rock solid and I've had zero issues. Windows 10 has fixed those issues with updates in the middle of something. That just doesn't happen anymore.
Would I prefer to have a tower with macOS? Certainly, but 1) Apple doesn't sell a similar machine in a similar price range and 2) saving about $4000 helps me cope with Windows not being as pretty. And I gotta admit, Windows is growing on me.
Yeah. If you only need one application I think windows is pretty good. The Magic of macOS is multitasking. Both on the user side and the way the applications work together and the OS side (the scheduler is way more efficient that on Windows).
I did switch. Windows 10 is pretty good now, and I'm happy.
I think the most painful things are:
I think the most painful things are:
- No iMessage
- No Automator
- If I searched for a third party utility on the Mac, almost always there was one or two clear, good choices. If I search for a third party utility on Windows, there is an enormous amount of crap. If I try to narrow that down with reviews, I find an enormous amount of crap reviews. I realize that having more choices are good, but getting there requires walking through a minefield of adware, crapware, and malware.
- Way too many ways to configure things, all with slightly different overlap, and frequently changing. Adjusting sound for example. Another example, selecting different background screens for different monitor keeps changing and getting enabled/disabled over time. Why is this so hard to get right and just keep it that way.
LOL! Why am I not surprised to hear "they're two different things" as your response. They are, in fact, not two different things. Cut, copy, and paste via the keyboard in a CLI is a completely "power user" means of cutting, copying, and pasting. One doesn't have to use them as one can always use the mouse. The keyboard key combinations are there for the "power" user.
MacOS proves you wrong because there's two ways to cut, copy, and paste on the keyboard. The normal way, Cmd-x, -c, -v, and the power user way, Control-k, -y.
Likewise, arrow key movement is the normal way, and Control-a, -e, -p, -n are the secret power user way (so you don't move your hands off the letters). If you got rid of arrow key manipulation and select, people would scream.
From my experience it’s dependent on user. Most have trouble with either. (But usually more familiar with windows but not necessarily any good at it). Also current generation growing up on chromebooks and google web apps. Or an iPad. Little Mac or windows knowledge. Where as in the 90s we were building our own PCs. I don’t think typing is a thing in high school anymore either.
I moved to Windows around 3 years ago and just keep an eye on Mac for personal interest. The only things I missed were Messages and the preview app. Everything else was in Windows.
In the past 3 years I've had barely any crashes and only reboot for Windows updates around once per month. Stories of updates constantly interrupting workflow or introducing new issues with every release are simply not true. Updates can be configured and apart from security fixes it is wise with any OS (Mac, Linux or Windows) not to run on the latest release.
I recently did a rebuild of my main desktop as I wanted to replace the boot drive and while I could image it, there was a lot of clutter (of my own making) and I wanted a fresh start. I downloaded an ISO from Microsoft and that was pretty much it. Other than NVidia drivers everything else was included. I entered my MS account details and it installed office too. I only had Adobe CC and printer drivers/utilities to install. The whole process including the Adobe apps took around 2 hours to complete.
Next year I'm considering an upgrade, but still haven't seen anything from Apple that makes me want to switch back. I like the Mac Pro but I'm not convinced about the pricing for the spec on offer, and AMD have just released the 3950x and new Threadripper CPUs'. If I'm being modest I could go down the 3950x route and get 16-cores and 64GB RAM for around £1500 (including all the other odd and sods I need to replace my existing MB/CPU/RAM). It's nearer 3-3.5k to go down the threadripper route but that would give me 3-cores and 128GB RAM. It depends what direction my video editing goes. Either way, I will get a lot of performance for the money and I know Windows will be just fine with it.
Other than a performance increase over my 6-core Mac Pro I've not noticed anything different in Adobe CC since moving to Windows. No you don't get Messages, but WhatsApp does the job. No I don't get preview and yes I do miss this, but I gain better file management (personal taste explorer vs finder), but it's probably more stable than Mac OS is these days and I get complete freedom over my choice of hardware. Also all the snooping isn't really a thing - I've looked and almost nothing is sent out. Your choice of browser would expose you more than Windows will.
In the past 3 years I've had barely any crashes and only reboot for Windows updates around once per month. Stories of updates constantly interrupting workflow or introducing new issues with every release are simply not true. Updates can be configured and apart from security fixes it is wise with any OS (Mac, Linux or Windows) not to run on the latest release.
I recently did a rebuild of my main desktop as I wanted to replace the boot drive and while I could image it, there was a lot of clutter (of my own making) and I wanted a fresh start. I downloaded an ISO from Microsoft and that was pretty much it. Other than NVidia drivers everything else was included. I entered my MS account details and it installed office too. I only had Adobe CC and printer drivers/utilities to install. The whole process including the Adobe apps took around 2 hours to complete.
Next year I'm considering an upgrade, but still haven't seen anything from Apple that makes me want to switch back. I like the Mac Pro but I'm not convinced about the pricing for the spec on offer, and AMD have just released the 3950x and new Threadripper CPUs'. If I'm being modest I could go down the 3950x route and get 16-cores and 64GB RAM for around £1500 (including all the other odd and sods I need to replace my existing MB/CPU/RAM). It's nearer 3-3.5k to go down the threadripper route but that would give me 3-cores and 128GB RAM. It depends what direction my video editing goes. Either way, I will get a lot of performance for the money and I know Windows will be just fine with it.
Other than a performance increase over my 6-core Mac Pro I've not noticed anything different in Adobe CC since moving to Windows. No you don't get Messages, but WhatsApp does the job. No I don't get preview and yes I do miss this, but I gain better file management (personal taste explorer vs finder), but it's probably more stable than Mac OS is these days and I get complete freedom over my choice of hardware. Also all the snooping isn't really a thing - I've looked and almost nothing is sent out. Your choice of browser would expose you more than Windows will.
macOS just does it the non-standard way by using command. Having said that I'm still waiting for a non-CLI example where Windows uses control + x/c/v inconsistently.
Exactly. Windows does it the inconsistent and disruptive way. macOS does it the consistent way. You agree.
Pointing out that Linux also behaves inconsistently doesn’t magically make the behavior good. Plus, it’s not even correct as other posters have pointed out. Give Linux a meta key on the keyboard and you can make it behave consistently.
Which — not coincidentally — is the “standard” behavior for Unix systems.
There probably is one, but it doesn’t matter. One outlier is all that’s needed to demonstrate inconsistency. You’re flailing here and maybe you should just drop it.
Even with Apple's ill-advised yearly update schedule, I spend way less time troubleshooting my Mac than I do Windows, and I'm much faster at troubleshooting my Mac than I am Windows. The latter problem would probably be ameliorated by increased familiarity if I switched back to Windows as my main driver, but I'm loath to do that for the former problem.
Basic stuff like updates from the Microsoft Store have been fiddly (luckily better more recently) and there's some quality-of life stuff I'd miss (Quicklook and the like). Sure, I can get Windows to be more Mac-like, but then that's defeating the point of switching to a large degree.
And the update policy is bonkers and terrible, any way you slice it.
The Apple ecosystem halo benefits are also hard to walk away from. Having an Apple Watch, iPhone, and Mac isn't always as transparently seamless as Apple would like people to think, but it's definitely less rough than trying to mix and match different devices in there.
(Conceptually, I've always thought there's an argument to be made that "Recycle Bin" works better as a descriptor of what the computer is doing—freeing up reusable space—but at the same time files you delete are effectively gone so maybe the "Trash" metaphor is better from a basic user standpoint of consequences.)
The only thing I think makes more sense day-to-day I've encountered on Windows is the cut-and-paste workflow versus copy-and-paste/copy-and-move stuff on Mac. I appreciate the default of avoiding data loss or confusion, but I also think it's a behavior that's contrary to what most people actually want.
Basic stuff like updates from the Microsoft Store have been fiddly (luckily better more recently) and there's some quality-of life stuff I'd miss (Quicklook and the like). Sure, I can get Windows to be more Mac-like, but then that's defeating the point of switching to a large degree.
And the update policy is bonkers and terrible, any way you slice it.
The Apple ecosystem halo benefits are also hard to walk away from. Having an Apple Watch, iPhone, and Mac isn't always as transparently seamless as Apple would like people to think, but it's definitely less rough than trying to mix and match different devices in there.
Since Mac OS X it's shown the eject button, though, and dragging to the trash has never been the optimal option as well (versus using the menu or the keyboard shortcut.) So it's probably not a weird inconsistency to anyone without long memories. But every OS has its quirks either way.
(Conceptually, I've always thought there's an argument to be made that "Recycle Bin" works better as a descriptor of what the computer is doing—freeing up reusable space—but at the same time files you delete are effectively gone so maybe the "Trash" metaphor is better from a basic user standpoint of consequences.)
The only thing I think makes more sense day-to-day I've encountered on Windows is the cut-and-paste workflow versus copy-and-paste/copy-and-move stuff on Mac. I appreciate the default of avoiding data loss or confusion, but I also think it's a behavior that's contrary to what most people actually want.
Not for nothing, but MS isn't doing anything terribly different. They're updating Windows 2x year, granted the scope of changes seems to be smaller but the downsides of a similar cadence exists for MS as well.
I've been running Windows 10 Pro on a workstation for over three years now, and these updates have honestly never caused me a problem, probably because I configure the system to wait to install feature updates until at least 90 days after they are released, giving the masses more time to be guinea pigs.
What problems are you running into on either your Mac or PC systems? Am I the only one who sits down in front of their computers and just uses them without and muss or fuss? This is a serious question because I can't recall the last time I had to fix any of my computers (be they Windows, macOS / OS X, or Linux). I've got multiple systems which I use on a regular basis and haven't had any notable (meaning I can't recall them) issues with them.
I would like the ability to disable updates. However, it's my opinion, Microsoft is forcing them on users because they failed to do updates and therefore their systems became vulnerable to unpatched vulnerabilities. In Microsoft had to concern themselves with a multitude of systems in different patch states making it more difficult to roll out reliable patches. By forcing users to a "known" state it makes patching more reliable and trouble-free, and better secures the end users system.
In my day-to-day life, I don't have many. But when they crop up, troubleshooting them is second-nature with a Mac.
On my PCs I've run into more day-to-day problems (the aforementioned "Windows Store can't somehow perform an update"), to weird disk permissions snafus, to failures to keep my preferences the same (hello, 1024x768 default screen resolutions) or even verify I have a legitimate copy (after a while of my key not sticking, I just gave up and deal with the "unregistered windows" thing on my VM install.) There are way fewer issues overall than it had in the bad old days, but still more than I deal with on my Mac (where generally the only issues I'm ever running into now are the silent "why hasn't this synced with my phone"-type ones.)
Yeah, but when even Apple is less user-hostile about pushing updates on people, you know you've gone too far
Thank you for providing some examples, out of all of the people who I've requested do so you're the first to have done so.
For better or for worse I think Microsoft had to take such action because too many people "knew better" and disabled updates.Yeah, but when even Apple is less user-hostile about pushing updates on people, you know you've gone too far