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I wouldn’t say its subjective. Its dependent on your use. If you need CPU cores and not 2xGPUs, its a pretty terrible deal. If 4-6 fast CPU cores and you can use 2xGPUs, its at least a decent deal.



“90%”.....“enough”....you pulled that from where?



Going from 1TB to 1.5 or 2TB over the next 2-3 years isn’t going to really matter.



Until we actually see these things running, its impossible to know for sure. There is some chance of bottle necking issues with those PCI lanes.



I think you’re missing the whole CUDA thing...



Agreed.



If you need, and I mean NEED, 128GB of RAM, you currently have to buy 4x32GB sticks. Go price that out relative to 8x16GBs... And why doesn’t OSX allow more RAM anyway? Is there a real reason OSX couldn’t have 1TB of RAM?



That numbers really just about 1/3 or less. It would appear you just don’t really understand people that have uses different than yours.

I understand fine that people have other uses then me.

As for the price being subjective, i ment the same as you, its subjective if it is expensive depending on your needs. Though i see demand for 4k cranking up in the next three years where those d300 wont be a bad deal for anyone who wants to use such monitors.

Exept for external gpu's this machine has alot of external expandability if tb2 delivers as it promises it should be able to get to 1700MBps+ in real world tests. Except for those who used minisas this is a step back. Most professional company's use xserve or xsan servers or other network attached storage. Those who do use raid in the old mac pro even with 4ssd's raid 0 would see around the same speeds as thunderbolt provides externally (with raid0 overhead in mind) thats why i said for 90% it SHOULD be enough.

As for internal expandability. Yes 1tb isnt enough for some use cases, thunderbolt provides an excelent solution. Its a different approach apple is making. We could see apple adding a second pcie ssd in the next iteration. (If enough pci lanes) That way we will be on 3tb max next year and probably 4tb internal the year after. Eitherway, the mass media storage was never ment to be internal especially with company's network, xsan/xserve/nas. Im not saying it wouldnt be nice to have an 3,5/2,5" slot inside. Im just saying its not like that would change alot of the storage options (even if it were 4 bays, since most profesionals have more need then 4 bays, in either way you have to go external.) its not ideal for some people to buy another box for external options, but it is where we are heading looking at the slow rate spinning media capacity is advancing.

As for video cards, apple is placing a bet on the future here. The "skating where the puck will be" all over again. I work with cuda daily. And right now, you have to consider that cuda is the better bet for this year and maybe next year. But when comparing nvidia to amd the amd gpu's give alot more bang for buck in openCL area. OpenCL has also proven itself faster then cuda. Apple isnt trying to push us into something new, there trying to push as faster to where we otherwise would be in 6 years. We can look for 32 core cpu's in 5 years for compute power, or 8000 stream processor gpu cores in gpu power. Wich would you rather have your software support? Adobe, the foundry and others have already said they will be working on openCL. Wich is great for the future. But if you need power right now and your main software doesnt support openCL yet, yes its not a good idea to buy an nMp now.

On cpus and ram, apple should have given an option for 2cpu's wich in current design probably were not possible. And as they are betting on opencl, hence there decision for 1cpu. You need 2 cpus for having 8 ram slots, a choice for 1 cpu automatically implies only 4 ram slots. And yes right now 32gb dimms are steep, but memory has always been about supply and demand. If the demand is high enough prices will go down. 3 years ago dual 16gb dimms were 850+ if i recall correctly. On the osx ram memory support, im bafled as to why there is a limit indeed.

The thing is that apple built this machine to be fully operational in 3+ years if you look at what they put in there its heavily depending on developers stepping up thier game. Its not a machine built for today as compute needs. There is a 12 core option for people who still need the power now (even though a dual set up for them would be better in the short run) in the long run i believe apple is betting the right horse.
 
On cpus and ram, apple should have given an option for 2cpu's wich in current design probably were not possible. And as they are betting on opencl, hence there decision for 1cpu. You need 2 cpus for having 8 ram slots, a choice for 1 cpu automatically implies only 4 ram slots.

The most I've seen is 12 DIMM slots per socket on LGA 2011. 8 per CPU is standard for Sandy/Ivy workstations.
 
Have you looked?

hmm really? ive never seen a system (personally) having more then 4 sockets for a single cpu setup.

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There isn't a $1500 i5/i7 model.

Would've snapped that up in a heartbeat XD

Also it kinda seems like Apple flipped the birdie to everyone that isn't a video editor of some sort.

FCP video editor, at least.
 
The insane price. I could build my own computer for a lot cheaper that has sli 780ti's and a 4770k or xeon.
 
The insane price. I could build my own computer for a lot cheaper that has sli 780ti's and a 4770k or xeon.

And yet it's been proven that this isn't the case. Forget about the 4770K, obviously, since you're clearing missing the point of this computer.
 
I understand fine that people have other uses then me.

Most professional company's use xserve or xsan servers or other network attached storage....As for internal expandability. Yes 1tb isnt enough for some use cases, thunderbolt provides an excelent solution. Its a different approach apple is making

You're looking at this wrong. If you think that SAN or a thunderbolt external HDD on my desk are the only options, you're missing out on a large part of the workforce. At my workplace, we don't have a SAN, we have a NAS drive. If I want to work with video, I'm going to work with it locally. And you better believe me when I say that my employer wouldn't look kindly to having all of my data stored on a single enclosure, that isn't backed up weekly.

So what are my options? Realistically, get an iMac, which has a much larger internal drive but no replicable parts so when it breaks, it needs a complete replacement, or get a PC.

I don't think Apple is living in the real world right now. They over-compensated video producers after giving them the finger with FCPX, but in doing so managed to alienate everyone else (IMO).
 
And yet it's been proven that this isn't the case. Forget about the 4770K, obviously, since you're clearing missing the point of this computer.

It's not been proven. Only when we know the real capabilities of the D700 will we be able to pick an appropriate match on the PC side.

Also, "better" is an arbitrary term. An i7 with dual GTX780Ti in SLI will outright murder a New Mac Pro at gaming at half the cost.

New Mac Pro can't do CUDA at all, and if the lack of ECC rumor is true, it's a loss for scientific computation.

If the D700 stacks up only to a 7970 in terms of Windows Pro App performance, you can easily build an "equivalent" PC for a fraction of the cost.

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You're looking at this wrong. If you think that SAN or a thunderbolt external HDD on my desk are the only options, you're missing out on a large part of the workforce. At my workplace, we don't have a SAN, we have a NAS drive. If I want to work with video, I'm going to work with it locally. And you better believe me when I say that my employer wouldn't look kindly to having all of my data stored on a single enclosure, that isn't backed up weekly.

Then you're not a professional!
 
Also, "better" is an arbitrary term. An i7 with dual GTX780Ti in SLI will outright murder a New Mac Pro at gaming at half the cost.

So you say "murder". In my book, that's at least 100% improvement. So a i7/GTX780 will cost $1500, and be 100% improvement?

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If the D700 stacks up only to a 7970 in terms of Windows Pro App performance, you can easily build an "equivalent" PC for a fraction of the cost.


Well, 30% is a fraction.. so is 99%.. vague word is vague...
 
So you say "murder". In my book, that's at least 100% improvement. So a i7/GTX780 will cost $1500, and be 100% improvement?

I haven't done the math exactly (you can double check), but Quad with D700 is > $5000. I can probably build a 4770K with Dual 780Ti for ~$2500 (it'll be close!).

Even if the D700 is Xfire, this should be > 100% faster in gaming. Since it's likely not Xfire, we're talking about 150-200% 100-175% faster.

Well, 30% is a fraction.. so is 99%.. vague word is vague...

Hex Core D700 1TB - I can probably do the same with SATA SSD, 7970, Same processor for maybe 50-70% the cost.
 
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I haven't done the math exactly (you can double check), but Quad with D700 is > $5000. I can probably build a 4770K with Dual 780Ti for ~$2500 (it'll be close!).

Even if the D700 is Xfire, this should be > 100% faster in gaming. Since it's likely not Xfire, we're talking about 150-200%.

Well, as I mentioned elsewhere, what games? But a 200% improvement? You really expect that?

Also, a base Quad with D700 is $4k. not over $5k as you suggest.

That's also giving you a Quad Xeon to do "real work" as part of the bargain.. :D
 
Well, as I mentioned elsewhere, what games? But a 200% improvement? You really expect that?

Also, a base Quad with D700 is $4k. not over $5k as you suggest.

That's also giving you a Quad Xeon to do "real work" as part of the bargain.. :D

Looks like Maybe only 50-175% increase in FPS :). That's basically assuming the D700 is an underclocked 7970. My feeling is that after a few minutes of gaming peels back the boost clock, it'll be about to the level of a 7870. I also doubt there will be crossfire.

Go back and read my post. I was saying that depending on the use-case and the true speed of the D700, the nMP will be hard to replicate in the PC world, or be easily trounced in terms of performance.

If we find out that the D700 performs in Pro apps in Windows the same as a W7000 ($700), it'll be quite easy to DIY a better machine in Windows for less.

If you only run FCP, clearly you need a Mac, just like if you only run CUDA or scientific apps (assuming no ECC), you'll need a video card the NMP simply doesn't have.

As far as "part of the bargain" -- what about drive bays, PCIe throughput, upgradability, and other standard PC features which can and do save thousands of dollars?
 
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Looks like Maybe only 50-175% increase in FPS :). That's basically assuming the D700 is an underclocked 7970. My feeling is that after a few minutes of gaming peels back the boost clock, it'll be about to the level of a 7870. I also doubt there will be crossfire.

Go back and read my post. I was saying that depending on the use-case, the nMP will be hard to replicate in the PC world.

If we find out that the D700 performs in Pro apps in Windows the same as a W7000 ($700), it'll be quite easy to DIY a better machine in Windows for less.

If you only run FCP, clearly you need a Mac, just like if you only run CUDA or scientific apps (assuming no ECC), you'll need a video card the NMP simply doesn't have.

As far as "part of the bargain" -- what about drive bays, PCIe throughput, upgradability, and other standard PC features which can and do save thousands of dollars?

Well, even I've said in the other threads, that if someone is just there for the gaming, then a hackintosh i7/GTX780 is the way to go...

But as one of the muddling masses doing Creative Suite, Lightroom, and perhaps too much WoW, a PC isn't a way I want to go, and I want the horsepower for Lightroom specifically. A Hex/D500 will certainly run rings around an iMac, so.. other choices?

PCIe? who needs it? Drive bays? One new external 4TB enclosure will suite me just fine. Other features? which ones?

Point is that looking at the logical upgrades from my system, without going PC, a nMP is really the only choice that doesn't make compromises. Were I a video editor with a gaggle of existing cards, that might be a different story.
 
That it is not on my desk!!!

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Dual processor, maybe - but the speed improvements are negligible because of multiplexing and bandwith
 
Really? I thought 8 DIMMs per socket on duel or quad socket machines was more common than not.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...07629 600288062&IsNodeId=1&name=Dual LGA 2011

At newegg, of the duel socket LGA 2011 boards 6 are 8 DIMMs, 19 are 18 DIMMs and 3 are 24 DIMMs.

I think he was mainly referring to other LGA1150 and other more consumer-oriented sockets. It seems most/many are 4 slots (??)

The nMP is quickly becoming Enthusiast/prosumer machine, might as well compare it to others of the same ilk.
 
You're looking at this wrong. If you think that SAN or a thunderbolt external HDD on my desk are the only options, you're missing out on a large part of the workforce. At my workplace, we don't have a SAN, we have a NAS drive. If I want to work with video, I'm going to work with it locally. And you better believe me when I say that my employer wouldn't look kindly to having all of my data stored on a single enclosure, that isn't backed up weekly.

So what are my options? Realistically, get an iMac, which has a much larger internal drive but no replicable parts so when it breaks, it needs a complete replacement, or get a PC.

I don't think Apple is living in the real world right now. They over-compensated video producers after giving them the finger with FCPX, but in doing so managed to alienate everyone else (IMO).

So why not buy an usb3/thunderbolt external 4tb drive for the nmp? It ill give you virtually the same setup as an imac you are refering to. And you van also bakc it up. Only difference is that you can even switch computers now by detaching the drive and plugging it in somewhere else. Or use something like:

http://www.g-technology.com/products/g-dock-ev-thunderbolt
 
I understand fine that people have other uses then me.

As for the price being subjective, i ment the same as you, its subjective if it is expensive depending on your needs. Though i see demand for 4k cranking up in the next three years where those d300 wont be a bad deal for anyone who wants to use such monitors.

OK, I think subjective is the wrong word then, but fair enough.

Exept for external gpu's this machine has alot of external expandability if tb2 delivers as it promises it should be able to get to 1700MBps+ in real world tests.

But what happens when your soaking those PCI lanes in various configurations.... And to get that kind of speed from an external, you’re looking at things that are more expensive than dealing with internal SATA.

Most professional company's use xserve or xsan servers or other network attached storage. Those who do use raid in the old mac pro even with 4ssd's raid 0 would see around the same speeds as thunderbolt provides externally (with raid0 overhead in mind) thats why i said for 90% it SHOULD be enough.

Like above, there are caveats with that. Many with NAS still need a good amount of directly attached working space and the 1TB offered is either expensive or not enough for a good portion of people. If you want something blazing fast and <= 1TB is enough, then this is a good deal. But if speed is not as needed or you need >1TB, you’re looking at added expenses. I won’t go as far as to put a number on how many people that is, because that’s just pulling something from my rear, but I’m one of them.

As for internal expandability. Yes 1tb isnt enough for some use cases, thunderbolt provides an excelent solution. Its a different approach apple is making. We could see apple adding a second pcie ssd in the next iteration. (If enough pci lanes) That way we will be on 3tb max next year and probably 4tb internal the year after.

I’m guessing there will be more PCI lanes in the next feature set for Haswell and Broadway, right? That could certainly fix some potential issues with this computer.

Eitherway, the mass media storage was never ment to be internal especially with company's network, xsan/xserve/nas. Im not saying it wouldnt be nice to have an 3,5/2,5" slot inside. Im just saying its not like that would change alot of the storage options (even if it were 4 bays, since most profesionals have more need then 4 bays, in either way you have to go external.) its not ideal for some people to buy another box for external options, but it is where we are heading looking at the slow rate spinning media capacity is advancing.

Apple isnt trying to push us into something new, there trying to push as faster to where we otherwise would be in 6 years.

All fair enough, but it does leave some users out in the cold now.

We can look for 32 core cpu's in 5 years for compute power, or 8000 stream processor gpu cores in gpu power. Wich would you rather have your software support?

There are a lot of tasks that just aren’t suited to be shipped off to the GPU no matter how many cores are there. Tasks requiring lots of RAM or longer, more complicated single computations (even if there are many of them) are often just not possible. Photo/video stuff is great, because its lots of small computations for each pixel, over and over. With other tasks its not so natural. If one day GPUs can shove TBs of RAM to go with those 8000 cores, that might be different....

But if you need power right now and your main software doesnt support openCL yet, yes its not a good idea to buy an nMp now.

Right, well maybe a ridicule referencing just gaming wasn’t really the right idea then...


You need 2 cpus for having 8 ram slots, a choice for 1 cpu automatically implies only 4 ram slots.

No, you don’t need 2 cpus for 8 slots, its just that most single socket workstations are geared for high RAM, because if you needed high RAM, you’d probably buy a duel socket workstation.

And yes right now 32gb dimms are steep, but memory has always been about supply and demand. If the demand is high enough prices will go down.

That’s a bit simplistic. There are manufacturing costs for the bleeding edge that need to be recouped. The other problem is that 32 GB DIMMs aren’t so popular because the people that really need RAM can buy a workstation a 16 DIMM duel processor board and get up to 256GB of RAM with 16GB modules and stay in the same price range as the Mac Pro. So that’s killing the demand for 32GB modules. And as long as most high memory machines have more DIMMs than the Mac Pro, the Mac Pro will need the larger density DIMMs which are in lower demand and thus higher price.

3 years ago dual 16gb dimms were 850+ if i recall correctly.

That’s also about what I remember. Now its only about half that. Today a 32GB stick is about $600+. If in 3 years 32GB is $300, that really isn’t going to change the equation in the Mac Pro that much.

The thing is that apple built this machine to be fully operational in 3+ years if you look at what they put in there its heavily depending on developers stepping up thier game. Its not a machine built for today as compute needs. There is a 12 core option for people who still need the power now (even though a dual set up for them would be better in the short run) in the long run i believe apple is betting the right horse.

Which is a curious move, IMO. In 3 years we don’t see the amount of changes we used to with computing, but its still getting up there. So today’s nMP will be fairly dated by the time its even the right computer for the software. It seems to me that the old Mac Pro design should probably have hung around for Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge and this transition would have made more sense with Haswell and especially Broadwell.
 
OK, I think subjective is the wrong word then, but fair enough.



But what happens when your soaking those PCI lanes in various configurations.... And to get that kind of speed from an external, you’re looking at things that are more expensive than dealing with internal SATA.



Like above, there are caveats with that. Many with NAS still need a good amount of directly attached working space and the 1TB offered is either expensive or not enough for a good portion of people. If you want something blazing fast and <= 1TB is enough, then this is a good deal. But if speed is not as needed or you need >1TB, you’re looking at added expenses. I won’t go as far as to put a number on how many people that is, because that’s just pulling something from my rear, but I’m one of them.



I’m guessing there will be more PCI lanes in the next feature set for Haswell and Broadway, right? That could certainly fix some potential issues with this computer.

Eitherway, the mass media storage was never ment to be internal especially with company's network, xsan/xserve/nas. Im not saying it wouldnt be nice to have an 3,5/2,5" slot inside. Im just saying its not like that would change alot of the storage options (even if it were 4 bays, since most profesionals have more need then 4 bays, in either way you have to go external.) its not ideal for some people to buy another box for external options, but it is where we are heading looking at the slow rate spinning media capacity is advancing.



All fair enough, but it does leave some users out in the cold now.



There are a lot of tasks that just aren’t suited to be shipped off to the GPU no matter how many cores are there. Tasks requiring lots of RAM or longer, more complicated single computations (even if there are many of them) are often just not possible. Photo/video stuff is great, because its lots of small computations for each pixel, over and over. With other tasks its not so natural. If one day GPUs can shove TBs of RAM to go with those 8000 cores, that might be different....



Right, well maybe a ridicule referencing just gaming wasn’t really the right idea then...




No, you don’t need 2 cpus for 8 slots, its just that most single socket workstations are geared for high RAM, because if you needed high RAM, you’d probably buy a duel socket workstation.



That’s a bit simplistic. There are manufacturing costs for the bleeding edge that need to be recouped. The other problem is that 32 GB DIMMs aren’t so popular because the people that really need RAM can buy a workstation a 16 DIMM duel processor board and get up to 256GB of RAM with 16GB modules and stay in the same price range as the Mac Pro. So that’s killing the demand for 32GB modules. And as long as most high memory machines have more DIMMs than the Mac Pro, the Mac Pro will need the larger density DIMMs which are in lower demand and thus higher price.



That’s also about what I remember. Now its only about half that. Today a 32GB stick is about $600+. If in 3 years 32GB is $300, that really isn’t going to change the equation in the Mac Pro that much.



Which is a curious move, IMO. In 3 years we don’t see the amount of changes we used to with computing, but its still getting up there. So today’s nMP will be fairly dated by the time its even the right computer for the software. It seems to me that the old Mac Pro design should probably have hung around for Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge and this transition would have made more sense with Haswell and especially Broadwell.

The soaking of the pci lanes is one we should wait for in real world uses with the nmp,

For people that do need local storage above the 1tb limit right now, yes those are added expenses. You will either have to shell out for an multiple disk drive or raid solution. Ranging from 600,- for 8tb of thunderbolt storage. Or more, like promise. Its not like there is no option for those who need it. It does cost some extra. 8tb at less then the price of the 512gb to 1tb upgrade in the nmp seems reasonable.


Haswell and broadwell do look like they are more suited and make more sense for this new version of the mac pro.

Yes i fully understand that leaves some users in the cold now. Cpu wise its still an upgrade to the latest oMp. But for those that need dual cpu's for thier work now are left in the cold untill their software supports opencl if ever...

Some tasks can not be done efficiently by a gpu, but thats why there still is a pretty good cpu in there. Taking into acount what i said above.

I thought u needed 2cpus for 8 dimms, but now you and others have shown me it is possible i do also not understand why there arent more slots because for such a computer there should be imo.

As for supply and demand of 32gb dimms and prices. The new mac pro will generate some demand on its own. But i agree 8slots would have been better if it would have fit in that tiny cilinder.


With your last words i completely agree, but with europe being out of supply of old mp they had to release this thing. maybe thats why they stepped into this cpu cycle instead of haswell. But for other country's then europe it could have made sense to update the old mp with usb3 new processors and videocards to linger along with the gpu compute transition.
 
So why not buy an usb3/thunderbolt external 4tb drive for the nmp? It ill give you virtually the same setup as an imac you are refering to. And you van also bakc it up. Only difference is that you can even switch computers now by detaching the drive and plugging it in somewhere else. Or use something like:

http://www.g-technology.com/products/g-dock-ev-thunderbolt

Because you 1) missed the part where I said "And you better believe me when I say that my employer wouldn't look kindly to having all of my data stored on a single enclosure, that isn't backed up weekly." RAID is not a backup.

Plus, that's an $800 solution to an issue that Apple created, and didn't exist a year ago.
 
Because you 1) missed the part where I said "And you better believe me when I say that my employer wouldn't look kindly to having all of my data stored on a single enclosure, that isn't backed up weekly." RAID is not a backup.

Plus, that's an $800 solution to an issue that Apple created, and didn't exist a year ago.

A 4TB USB3 drive is a $150 solution, not an $800 solution. And it can get backed up the exact same way your internal drives have been getting backed up, however you've been doing that currently.
 
A 4TB USB3 drive is a $150 solution, not an $800 solution. And it can get backed up the exact same way your internal drives have been getting backed up, however you've been doing that currently.

And for a large segment of the target audience, a RAID with drive rotation might actually be the backup solution.
 
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